The Electric Car Thread

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KT421

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  • #21,281
    For a less than one driving day trip (one way), a cooler is all I need. Preferably a small one that fits in the footwell of the back so we can get at it without having to pull over and open up the back.

    The kitchenette would be a better fit for camping trips. But I have neither a Rivian nor a history of going camping as often as I would like to.
     
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    wallinbl

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  • #21,283
    demultiplexer said:
    IMO if you already have a massive car like a Rivian a relatively bulky kitchenette like the one that fits in the tunnel is OK, but for anything else you can make your life better with a subset of those items. I'm not saying it's necessary at all, of course not, especially if it's a sub-24 hour trip, but it's one of the very, very few modern features of cars that I'd consider a real improvement in comfort.
    Click to expand...
    I used to think the Rivians were big. I had a QX80 rental while in RMNP a few weeks ago, and the Rivians (there are plenty out there) were comparatively fairly small.

    Edit: it was the QX80, not QX70.
     
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    continuum

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  • #21,284
    QX60 or QX80? I don't think they've sold the QX70 in 4+ years.

    If you mean the QX60 that's basically a Nissan Pathfinder in Infiniti guise, and at 198.2 inches long/114.2 inch wheelbase/69.7 inch height, it's a little shorter in length than the Rivian R1S.

    If you mean the QX80 then yeah that's bigger, 210.2 inches long/121.1 inch wheelbase/75.8 inch height, which is same wheelbase as Rivian R1S but almost 10 inches longer, and about 1.5 inches shorter (R1S is 200.8 inches long/121.1 inch wheelbase/77.3 inch height. R1S is wider (without mirrors) too but now we're getting too into the weeds??
     
    ProphetM

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  • #21,286
    sryan2k1 said:
    Yeah The 12V trick is for when the battery dies, not for an emergency.
    Click to expand...

    Isn't that what that whole avenue of discussion began with? The 12V died, just in an extremely unusual circumstance. Apologies for the late reply; I just got back from a road trip last night and I'm catching up. I'm not saying they couldn't do better, but the one incident that started this required a series of several specific things, in a specific order, to occur.
    1. Car 12V works to unlatch door.
    2. Grandma straps toddler into car seat, then closes door, leaving all doors and windows, and hatch, closed, with toddler alone inside.
    3. Car 12V fails after that exact single door-opening button press, with the exact failure mode required to give no warning of the failure beforehand, and to an extent so complete that not even one additional button press works.
    4. Grandma doesn't know how to open her own car when the 12V dies, and also doesn't know how to look it up.
    5. Multiple firefighters also don't know how to open the car when the 12V dies, and also don't know how to look it up. (Despite being in an area with tens of thousands of this model car.)
    6. Somebody has to break a window.

    This wasn't a massive emergency where seconds counted. The car was in a garage. It wasn't baking in the sun, about to cook a toddler inside. It could have been, in very specific other circumstances - but those other specific circumstances didn't happen.

    Is every other car 100% insusceptible to any set of circumstances that can trap someone inside? I doubt it. This specific series created a problem in a Tesla. Another set could create a problem in a different car.

    Scotttheking said:
    Mentioned before, but I rented a tesla. I had to spend 5 mins standing in a hotel parking lot with google to find the owners manual and how to lock the damn thing. Tap a card on a spot on the B pillar, yeesh. Not one I’d guess!
    Click to expand...

    There's a picture of how to use the key card, ON the key card. Sorry, you don't get a pass for that one!
     
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  • #21,287
    ProphetM said:
    Isn't that what that whole avenue of discussion began with? The 12V died, just in an extremely unusual circumstance. Apologies for the late reply; I just got back from a road trip last night and I'm catching up. I'm not saying they couldn't do better, but the one incident that started this required a series of several specific things, in a specific order, to occur.
    1. Car 12V works to unlatch door.
    2. Grandma straps toddler into car seat, then closes door, leaving all doors and windows, and hatch, closed, with toddler alone inside.
    3. Car 12V fails after that exact single door-opening button press, with the exact failure mode required to give no warning of the failure beforehand, and to an extent so complete that not even one additional button press works.
    4. Grandma doesn't know how to open her own car when the 12V dies, and also doesn't know how to look it up.
    5. Multiple firefighters also don't know how to open the car when the 12V dies, and also don't know how to look it up. (Despite being in an area with tens of thousands of this model car.)
    6. Somebody has to break a window.

    This wasn't a massive emergency where seconds counted. The car was in a garage. It wasn't baking in the sun, about to cook a toddler inside. It could have been, in very specific other circumstances - but those other specific circumstances didn't happen.

    Is every other car 100% insusceptible to any set of circumstances that can trap someone inside? I doubt it. This specific series created a problem in a Tesla. Another set could create a problem in a different car.



    There's a picture of how to use the key card, ON the key card. Sorry, you don't get a pass for that one!
    Click to expand...
    Yes but the key card was secured inside an opaque sleeve.
     
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  • #21,290
    sryan2k1 said:
    The problem is again it doesn't work like any other vehicle on the planet. You shouldn't need directions to lock/unlock a car.
    Click to expand...
    Why not? Every time a new thing is introduced, directions are needed for people to learn how to use it. You're not born knowing how to use a fob, or a number pad, or even a key. Did you complain about not knowing how to unlock the car the first time you encountered one without a keyhole on the door?
     
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    GeneralFailureDriveA

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  • #21,293
    ProphetM said:
    The 12V died, just in an extremely unusual circumstance.
    Click to expand...

    Teslas murdering 12V batteries and not warning users before they are dead is hardly "unusual."

    They give none of the standard warnings of failure, of slow cranking speeds in cooler weather, that limits how bad an ICE car battery can get. An EV's 12V battery works until such point as it doesn't, and while they are supposed to warn, it is hardly unheard of for them to simply fail without warning, as in this case.
     
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  • #21,295
    GeneralFailureDriveA said:
    Teslas murdering 12V batteries and not warning users before they are dead is hardly "unusual."
    Click to expand...
    The specific combination of events is what made it unusual, not each component.

    Slow cranking is a possible indication of a failing battery in a gas car, but that doesn't always happen. Similarly, Teslas frequently notify well in advance of a failure, while other times the failure is not discernible by the car ahead of time and it's just suddenly dead.
     
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    sryan2k1

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  • #21,296
    12V SLA/FLA batteries under low loads don't just die. Their SoH calculations are either wrong or not aggressive enough to warn the owner before it fails. Likely the latter to try and mask how frequently they're killing them.


    If a normal battery can get 5+ years in an ICE with monster cranking amp requirements there is zero reason an EV 12V battery shouldn't last twice that, besides under sizing and mismanagement of SoC
     
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  • #21,298
    demultiplexer said:
    I can tell you that the main effect of the airfryer in the car is an unwelcome addition of heat to the already hot weather. That's why it's on the roof in the picture. Slow cooker is probably much more doable (I'd guess it's maybe 200W instead of the 1500W of the airfryer).

    By the way, I called it a gimmick, but I've done a handful of road trips now and the lack of hot food or stuff you can prepare properly is a real downer. I can't live off of preserved 'will stay safe in a hot car' food. A mini kitchenette, mini fridge and V2L is a real quality of life feature in an EV you expect to use for road trips.
    Click to expand...
    200W is exactly correct.

    I did consider the additional heat inside the cabin, but I'm a bit less worried about it given it's the middle of winter here. And, if it's not raining we can always crack open a window.

    I probably won't end up doing it, it was just something that popped into my mind as something we could do, if we wanted to. More likely it's something we'd consider doing if we went camping or glamping somewhere without power. Or if we're going to a remote beach somewhere during summer and want to have a minifridge/freezer with lunches, drinks, and ice creams.

    While we don't have an integrated V2L function via the EVSE (something that will emerge as standard in cars and home charging units over time, and cars get used as backup batteries for houses), we also appreciate the fact that if there was a complete blackout we have the ability to run an extension cord from the car to the fridge that would give us a much longer grace period before everything spoils.
     
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    Shavano

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  • #21,299
    ProphetM said:
    Isn't that what that whole avenue of discussion began with? The 12V died, just in an extremely unusual circumstance. Apologies for the late reply; I just got back from a road trip last night and I'm catching up. I'm not saying they couldn't do better, but the one incident that started this required a series of several specific things, in a specific order, to occur.
    1. Car 12V works to unlatch door.
    2. Grandma straps toddler into car seat, then closes door, leaving all doors and windows, and hatch, closed, with toddler alone inside.
    3. Car 12V fails after that exact single door-opening button press, with the exact failure mode required to give no warning of the failure beforehand, and to an extent so complete that not even one additional button press works.
    4. Grandma doesn't know how to open her own car when the 12V dies, and also doesn't know how to look it up.
    5. Multiple firefighters also don't know how to open the car when the 12V dies, and also don't know how to look it up. (Despite being in an area with tens of thousands of this model car.)
    6. Somebody has to break a window.

    This wasn't a massive emergency where seconds counted. The car was in a garage. It wasn't baking in the sun, about to cook a toddler inside. It could have been, in very specific other circumstances - but those other specific circumstances didn't happen.

    Is every other car 100% insusceptible to any set of circumstances that can trap someone inside? I doubt it. This specific series created a problem in a Tesla. Another set could create a problem in a different car.
    Click to expand...
    The more common failure mode is
    You return to your car after some time away, and the 12V battery has failed.

    You key doesn't work and it takes stuff you probably don't have on hand to open it up, so you can get at the failed component. You have to look on the internet to get the exact instructions for how to pop the hood using external power to a concealed wire. Once you get past that, you can get to the battery.

    Let's examine the parallel situation experienced by the owner or a normal car (anything but Tesla).
    You return to your car after some time away, and the 12V battery has failed.

    Your key doesn't work but it takes a thing you have in your pocket to open the door. You diagnose that the 12V battery must have failed because nothing works. You pop the hood and get at the failed battery.

    The Tesla has 2-3 extra steps and requires an able bodied and technically competent person.

    But that's "OK" because Tesla? No it isn't. It's crap.
     
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  • #21,301
    Shavano said:
    Your key doesn't work but it takes a thing you have in your pocket to open the door. You diagnose that the 12V battery must have failed because nothing works. You pop the hood and get at the failed battery.
    Click to expand...
    Unless you have a Porsche of a certain generation, in which case the hood release is electric. For those, one has to use the sort of jumper battery that plugs into the 12v socket in the cabin. But at least one could still get into the cabin with a physical key.
     
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  • #21,302
    MilleniX said:
    Unless you have a Porsche of a certain generation, in which case the hood release is electric. For those, one has to use the sort of jumper battery that plugs into the 12v socket in the cabin. But at least one could still get into the cabin with a physical key.
    Click to expand...
    So there's another company that's almost as bad at engineering?
     
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  • #21,303
    MilleniX said:
    Unless you have a Porsche of a certain generation, in which case the hood release is electric. For those, one has to use the sort of jumper battery that plugs into the 12v socket in the cabin. But at least one could still get into the cabin with a physical key.
    Click to expand...
    The difference being that popping the hood isn't critical to the opening of the car door with the thing in your pocket.
     
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    Bardon

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  • #21,304
    demultiplexer said:
    I can tell you that the main effect of the airfryer in the car is an unwelcome addition of heat to the already hot weather. That's why it's on the roof in the picture. Slow cooker is probably much more doable (I'd guess it's maybe 200W instead of the 1500W of the airfryer).

    By the way, I called it a gimmick, but I've done a handful of road trips now and the lack of hot food or stuff you can prepare properly is a real downer. I can't live off of preserved 'will stay safe in a hot car' food. A mini kitchenette, mini fridge and V2L is a real quality of life feature in an EV you expect to use for road trips.
    Click to expand...
    It's winter here in Aus, the heat is likely a welcome byproduct. :)
     
    ProphetM

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  • #21,306
    sryan2k1 said:
    If a normal battery can get 5+ years in an ICE with monster cranking amp requirements there is zero reason an EV 12V battery shouldn't last twice that, besides under sizing and mismanagement of SoC
    Click to expand...

    Here in Vegas you get 3 summers. Sometimes with the original 12V you might get 4.

    chalex said:
    When will you have access to Tesla Superchargers?
    Click to expand...
    Monday; Tuesday at the latest.
     
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    GeneralFailureDriveA

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  • #21,307
    sryan2k1 said:
    If a normal battery can get 5+ years in an ICE with monster cranking amp requirements there is zero reason an EV 12V battery shouldn't last twice that, besides under sizing and mismanagement of SoC
    Click to expand...

    The two use cases are rather different. A standard SLI battery is designed to source massive amps for a brief period of time (the Wh requirement to start even a large diesel engine with glow plugs is minimal compared to the battery capacity), and to be then recharged and floated.

    In Tesla's case, at least, the idle draw of the car when shut down used to be spectacular (30-50W, I believe some sources claimed?), and the battery is being effectively deep cycled repeatedly. Some years back someone did analysis of this and concluded it was battery abuse designed to kill the battery, I do not know if Tesla has fixed this behavior or not.
     
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  • #21,308
    GeneralFailureDriveA said:
    The two use cases are rather different. A standard SLI battery is designed to source massive amps for a brief period of time (the Wh requirement to start even a large diesel engine with glow plugs is minimal compared to the battery capacity), and to be then recharged and floated.

    In Tesla's case, at least, the idle draw of the car when shut down used to be spectacular (30-50W, I believe some sources claimed?), and the battery is being effectively deep cycled repeatedly. Some years back someone did analysis of this and concluded it was battery abuse designed to kill the battery, I do not know if Tesla has fixed this behavior or not.
    Click to expand...

    I'm reasonably confident this has been improved, although likely not fixed entirely. But if you saw something that concluded that it was 'designed to kill the battery', that's pretty suspect. The side effect may have been that it is very hard on the battery, but that's a far cry from being designed to do so.
     
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  • #21,310
    GeneralFailureDriveA said:
    Some years back someone did analysis of this and concluded it was battery abuse designed to kill the battery, I do not know if Tesla has fixed this behavior or not.
    Click to expand...
    I think they switched to li-ion 12V battery around Spring 2022.
    "Tesla began equipping Model Y vehicles with a 12v lithium-ion battery in 2022. Vehicles manufactured in the Fremont Factory after December 2021 and in Gigafactory Shanghai after October 2021 have the battery. The 12v battery is designed to last the life of the car..."

    My Nov 2020 Model Y has the older regular lead-acid 12V battery and will probably die soon? Coming up on 4 years.
    Controls > Software > Additional Vehicle Information shows you the battery info for the LV battery.
     
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  • #21,312
    It's crazy how bad they mismanage the 12V battery. Tesla can pull power from the traction battery when turned off, something a Toyota hybrid can't do, where off means click on the relay and that's it, no more HV power, until next time you power the car on. Whatever parasitic draw on a Tesla can come from the HV unit instead of the tiny 12V one - and you'll need it, as the HV battery can drop like 2% per day depending on setting or ~1 kWh / 40W, way more than a small auxiliary 12V lead battery can store. Sentry mode is reported to eay 7+ kWh a day which is insane.


    The question is why / how that 12V gets deep cycled this badly, do they disconnect the HV one until 12V goes low, top it up again to high, and disconnect HV again? Or is HV always available - why bother with a 12V battery then, just make it a 12V bus off the dc-dc inverter.

    Evidence suggests option #1, https://www.sevarg.net/2016/10/30/tesla-model-s-12v-battery-analysis/
    Three Days of 12V Voltage & Amperage

    First, the number of cycles per day is absurd. The car is putting 5 cycles a day on the 12V battery. That’s rather high - so that long cycle life rating doesn’t mean what it normally does. At 5 cycles a day, a year is 1825 cycles. At 50% depth of discharge… well, that’s your battery life and then some.
    Click to expand...

    They probably improved it later but it really doesn't help to cycle a 12V this much, otoh, leaving the HV contactor and all power electronics on means even worse %/day loss so it's a choice between two shitty options.


    When you also make "normal" cars, this kind of idle usage will never pass QC, it will definitely kill the battery in no time. Always on modems and SoCs, like a phone, will only draw power at mW scale, an app for remote control is no excuse for this kind of drain, you also have that on ICE vehicles.
     
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  • #21,317
    chalex said:
    The link from the 12V measurements and discussion is from 2016! "They probably improved it later", yeah, duh.
    Click to expand...
    Sentry mode data is from 2024, on a newer 3/Y, so "duh" isn't that obvious.

    electrek.co

    Tesla works to slash Sentry Mode power usage by ~40%, and why that's bigger than you think

    Tesla is working on a software update to slash Sentry Mode power usage by ~40% – reducing “vampire drain” on...
    electrek.co electrek.co

    Sentry Mode does consume a good amount of power – contributing to the vampire drain. With Sentry Mode on, some Tesla owners reported a vampire drain of 7.2 kWh in a day. That’s roughly 10% of the battery capacity of long range Model 3 or Model Y.
    Click to expand...
    But if they hit their 40% reduction target it will only drain 4 kWh or 4x normal car batteries in a day! 😂
     
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    Tom the Melaniephile

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  • #21,318
    sryan2k1 said:
    It probbly is the same cycles. They just masked the problem by throwing a LFP in.
    Click to expand...
    Sure. Swapping to a chemistry which is ~2 orders of magnitude more tolerant of demand patterns is "masking the problem". :rolleyes:


    If you want to make real complaints, it should be something more like: The new Tesla LFP "12V" low voltage battery is more like 15.5V and basically can't be jumped by normal 12V cars.
     
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  • #21,319
    Tom the Melaniephile said:
    Sure. Swapping to a chemistry which is ~2 orders of magnitude more tolerant of demand patterns is "masking the problem". :rolleyes:
    Click to expand...
    It is. While a LFP tolerates deeper discharges it's still abusing the battery. Now instead of dying every year they die every 3, still excessive outside of extreme climates.


    They should have never been applying 15.9V to that FLA battery, and it makes it clear they didn't/don't know what they're doing with the LV battery.

    12V chemistry is a solved problem, why they don't do what the rest of the world does remains a mystery.


    If you want to make real complaints, it should be something more like: The new Tesla LFP "12V" low voltage battery is more like 15.5V and basically can't be jumped by normal 12V cars.
    Click to expand...


    Of course it can. You don't need to charge the LFP battery, you need enough voltage to get the DC-DC converter to wake up and start supplying LV power, which being automotive should be anything above about 8-9V.
     
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  • #21,320
    sryan2k1 said:
    Now instead of dying every year they die every 3, still excessive outside of extreme climates.
    Click to expand...
    That's a bit of hyperbole, don't you think? Tesla can certainly do better, but I had my original 12V for 5 years here in Canada before I replaced it last year when the car was in for some unrelated work.
     
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