How is that conversation between Moscow and Beijing going?
M: We are the third Rome!
B: There was no first Rome, nor a second one.
M: leaves the chat.
The South OF China Sea Thread
- Thread starter CluelessOne
- Start date
M: We are the third Rome!
B: There was no first Rome, nor a second one.
M: leaves the chat.
That doesn’t sound too different than the Hindu extremists that claim ancient Hindus had advanced medicine, such as full head transplants, and space travel because of their pantheon of gods.They create new "science" and rewrite history to make it work.
Like this:
English is just a Mandarin dialect, Chinese scholars claim
World Civilisation Research Association argue Shakespeare was an 'illiterate actor' and his works were in fact written by Samuel Johnson, author of the Johnson English Dictionarywww.independent.co.uk
It's a fucking cult - the Party is never wrong, if science and history say something contrary to the Party narrative, then it is the science and history that is wrong, not the Party.
The difference is we know China has no academic freedom - which means research the CCP doesn't like would get striked down and silenced, and that scholars are already conditioned to do lots of self-censorship to avoid getting into trouble with the authorities.
The fact that this is an academic group which is allowed to get a full platform to spew this crap with such confidence means the CCP at best is looking away and at worst is sanctioning it.
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Coming back to the general topic, during Shangri-La security conference in Singapore, PRC accuse USA of creating an Asian NATO. Meanwhile PRC is bleating Philippines Marine personnels are pointing their guns to members of China Coast Guard. Now that wouldn't be a response of China Coast Guard confiscating and dumping Philippines supply, wouldn't it? Woe to poor, innocent China Coast Guard, people are so mean to them. Them dastardly Western bully.
I don't need to point out the last sentences are sarcasm, do I?
I don't need to point out the last sentences are sarcasm, do I?
As China authorizes use of force by coast guard, Japan considers response
With Beijing beefing up its powers in contested areas such as the Senkaku Islands, questions have arisen over how Tokyo should handle coastal security incidents.
www.japantimes.co.jp
The Senkaku Confrontation: Japan’s Coast Guard Faces Chinese “Patrol Ships”
Chinese Coast Guard vessels have repeatedly entered Japanese territorial waters surrounding the Senkaku Islands. In February this year, China authorized the use of weapons by the CCG. A former senior Japan Coast Guard official discusses conditions surrounding the islands against the background...
Good time to remind people the Chinese Coast Guards was allowed by the CCP to be arm to the fucking teeth all those years ago, they should've been classified as hostile enemy forces a long time ago.
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Warship Approached by Chinese Helicopter and Fighter Jets
In the East China Sea earlier today, two Chinese fighter jets circled the naval ship HNLMS Tromp several times. Additionally, the ship's NH90 maritime combat helicopter was approached by two Chinese fighter jets and a Chinese helicopter during a patrol. This created a potentially unsafe...
Keep making more enemies China.... Do it please...
According to today's USNI article, China Coast Guard was harassing Medevac mission. Also scientific mission.
Looks like PRC have their own SOLAS definition.
Looks like PRC have their own SOLAS definition.
Some pictures of the JH-7 jet and the Harbin Z-19 helicopter that buzzed the NH90 patrol helicopter: https://marineschepen.nl/nieuws/Tro...Chinese-vliegtuigen-en-helikopter-070624.htmlWarship Approached by Chinese Helicopter and Fighter Jets
In the East China Sea earlier today, two Chinese fighter jets circled the naval ship HNLMS Tromp several times. Additionally, the ship's NH90 maritime combat helicopter was approached by two Chinese fighter jets and a Chinese helicopter during a patrol. This created a potentially unsafe...english.defensie.nl
Keep making more enemies China.... Do it please...
The Chinese Defence Ministry has now also published a very whiny reaction complaining not just about the what the Zr.Ms. Tromp was doing, but also about the way the Dutch talked about it:
In the Washington Post article where Paparo was interviewed, he also claimed that PRC's real military budget is now about 3x what they publicize or just a little less than what the US spends at ~$700B. Not sure if that is in real dollar terms (adjusted for how much cheaper China is) or not. If that is non-adjusted dollars, that is actually a huge revelation, but it sounds like its more of a talking point to get more DOD budget.
China is expanding its navy at a rapid rate: https://www.csis.org/analysis/unpacking-chinas-naval-buildup
I guess we should all hope to never find out which Navy is stronger... but one substantial advantage that China would have is that it would be fighting off its own coast, whereas the US would have to supply its forces over a long distance. That's not going to matter if the conflict is over in a matter of days, but would likely be crucial if the conflict went on for months.
I guess we should all hope to never find out which Navy is stronger... but one substantial advantage that China would have is that it would be fighting off its own coast, whereas the US would have to supply its forces over a long distance. That's not going to matter if the conflict is over in a matter of days, but would likely be crucial if the conflict went on for months.
For starters, Guam and Hawaii say hi. There are allied ports in Japan, Korea, Australia, and expanding in the Philippines.
A long war will get ugly very fast. It is a major trade route. It will force Korea and Japan to join the fight. There are also number of USA allies in south east Asia who are likely willing to provide ports.
The SOP would be claiming Taiwan have turned traitors/unstable and invite PPC help. I just do not see it. Taiwan is a lot more stable when compared to Ukraine.
Any military attack on Taiwan will likely cause by deteriorating of China economy and use as a distraction.
The SOP would be claiming Taiwan have turned traitors/unstable and invite PPC help. I just do not see it. Taiwan is a lot more stable when compared to Ukraine.
Any military attack on Taiwan will likely cause by deteriorating of China economy and use as a distraction.
The Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) since (1962) "has been dedicated to finding ways to sustain American prominence and prosperity as a force for good in the world"
By tonnage: Who Rules the Waves?
I can only conclude that the CSIS piece is scaremongering for more military funding.
Especially in these perilous days, nothing is what it seems. Do your own fact-checking to the best of your ability, don't lay off that responsibility to journalists, politicians, or other talking heads.
Looking at tonnage metric is ignoring other things in a naval strategy. For the same amount of steel you can build one 100_000 tons aircraft carrier or thirty three 3_000 tons corvet or patrol boats.
One carrier is more useful for power projection, while thirty three patrol boats are more useful for sea control. PLA is focusing on sea control at this time, and with their home proximity does this effectively.
One carrier is more useful for power projection, while thirty three patrol boats are more useful for sea control. PLA is focusing on sea control at this time, and with their home proximity does this effectively.
No water cannon, cutting in front of passage at very close range, no chaff and flares released on top of the frigate bridge, no high speed buzzing the bridge, no sonar pinging when their divers in the water. At less than 50 kilometers from their shores, the USA don't do anything like that. Truly the Western decadence is making them soft.
https://www.twz.com/news-features/russian-naval-group-shadowed-off-florida-by-u-s-allies
/sardonic/
US Navy truly is desperate from lack of vessels that at one point they need to enlist a cruise ship to track the flotilla via posts on Twitter! USA is decaying.
/sardonic/
https://www.twz.com/news-features/russian-naval-group-shadowed-off-florida-by-u-s-allies
/sardonic/
US Navy truly is desperate from lack of vessels that at one point they need to enlist a cruise ship to track the flotilla via posts on Twitter! USA is decaying.
/sardonic/
Such were their complaints that they didn't even show up in our national news...impressive.
I hadn't seen the Chinese reaction before, apparently Dutch media found it utterly uninteresting. A very whiny reaction indeed
The Philippine is upgrading Subic Bay Airfield for maritime patrol base. Old timers knows its previous incarnation as Cubi Point Naval Air Station. Curiously the lead image is a USMC Hornet being prepared. I think it was one of the bases covered in newest ECDA.
US Navy and RoC Navy is doing a joint exercise in the western Pacific under the fig leaf of unplanned meeting and impromptu joint exercise. That was happening before PRC throw a tantrum during RoC presidential changeover.
Malaysia is also modernizing their coastal Navy with Turkish Corvete. That should help with their EEZ patrolling. With PRC having a base at Cam Ranh bay its a short sail to Malaysian EEZ.
Finally, Italian carrier Cavour is underway to attend RIMPAC. Maybe also to take potshots at Houthi as a bonus. Together with France attendance, this year RIMPAC have a strong Europe components. This year SINKEX prize is the former USS Tarawa.
US Navy and RoC Navy is doing a joint exercise in the western Pacific under the fig leaf of unplanned meeting and impromptu joint exercise. That was happening before PRC throw a tantrum during RoC presidential changeover.
Malaysia is also modernizing their coastal Navy with Turkish Corvete. That should help with their EEZ patrolling. With PRC having a base at Cam Ranh bay its a short sail to Malaysian EEZ.
Finally, Italian carrier Cavour is underway to attend RIMPAC. Maybe also to take potshots at Houthi as a bonus. Together with France attendance, this year RIMPAC have a strong Europe components. This year SINKEX prize is the former USS Tarawa.
Yeah, I just don't see how peer naval combat won't instantly go to the same place peer armor combat has gone. The lethality and cost advantage of missiles and drones has far outpaced expensive manned vehicles. And it's much harder to hide on the surface of the open ocean than it is in a forest.
Manned submarines may still be survivable, but for how much longer? Whether you call them submersible drones or long-range loitering torpedoes, it would still seem much easier to kill a sub than it is to protect it. Especially if you don't have a sub fleet yourself and don't much care what your autonomous underwater weapons find and kill.
Autonomous submersibles could be unencumbered by depth and crew requirements. That would make them much more flexible and compact, like their aviation counterparts. If nuclear powered, could have nearly unlimited mission durations. It would be a great capability enhancement.
They can’t really replace a manned navy presence. You can’t have a bunch of drones patrolling an area and providing a constant presence, they need to be backed up with ships and men.
Drones are great for close defense or as an assault vehicle, I would think, but it’s not like you can just send a bunch of drones to the South (of) China Sea, and let that count as a US navy presence in those waters.
But they would be a good tool for a naval group, to function as a sort of screening/skirmish force that provides a layer of defense without requiring constant, active management. A sort of mobile, semi-autonomous minefield around your group.
They'd be absolutely great as a counter invasion force for Taiwan though.
Just send a few thousand hunter killer drones towards the Chinese naval force and watch the fireworks.
You wouldn't even need any fancy AI or remote control, a simple "engage and sink anything floating between you and China" instruction would suffice.
Just send a few thousand hunter killer drones towards the Chinese naval force and watch the fireworks.
You wouldn't even need any fancy AI or remote control, a simple "engage and sink anything floating between you and China" instruction would suffice.
You’d need to be REAL sure there isn’t anything floating that isn’t an enemy. And that the drone isn’t going to go off course and find some fishing boat somewhere.
It’s basically a mobile mine.
You wouldn't launch them except in the event of an invasion, so that's not really an issue.
The primary difference is there aren't really any cheap DIY naval drones. Sure you can't hide at sea like you can in a forest, but it's also an immeasurably larger area that notably lacks things like friendly infantry to tell you 'there's hostiles a mile thataway' and narrow down your search box to what you can scout with a basic FPV camera drone you bought off Alibaba and can be manpacked by one dude.
Instead 'over there' could be a box two hundred miles on a side, which means you need some reasonably serious communication and sensing hardware, and the target might only be there for eight hours as it fires cruise missiles before it leaves, because ships are always in motion. And said volume might also have a dozen random civilian ships in it, all of whom belong to uninvolved third parties.
By the looks of it, targets also would include fake fishing vessels:
www.theguardian.com
OTOH, that method of rigging together the vessels looks like a great idea to facilitate putting them on fire in batches with well-aimed incendiary drones...
China’s maritime militia: the shadowy armada whose existence Beijing rarely acknowledges
They look like simple fishing boats but are capable of swarming in huge numbers to help Beijing stake its territorial claims in the South China Sea
www.theguardian.com
OTOH, that method of rigging together the vessels looks like a great idea to facilitate putting them on fire in batches with well-aimed incendiary drones...
That the US initial response strategy would include only unmanned drones seems to be a pretty strong signal: it allows for some response that China can react to without killing US soldiers. It's sort of like Iran's volley of missiles, none of which were intended to reach their targets in Israel. It allows the US to say they did something without risking a direct conflict with China.
Given that the US is supplying Ukraine and Israel, it's not clear they want to be involved in a third theater in East Asia. Even the US military will hit some supply constraints at some point. There's not an unlimited stockpile of missiles.
Given that the US is supplying Ukraine and Israel, it's not clear they want to be involved in a third theater in East Asia. Even the US military will hit some supply constraints at some point. There's not an unlimited stockpile of missiles.
Fair - I should have amended my post that I was talking about the US and Taiwanese responses, so they have a bit more resources than teen FPV drone hackers on the front lines of Ukraine. When I think of open ocean conflict it's usually Great Power conflict, since as you point out naval resources aren't cheap by definition. It's hard to hide on the ocean from satellite, P3, and P8 recon.
I still think of 'big ticket' surface naval resources as non-peer power projection. CVBGs are for swatting Houthis, intimidating Iranians, etc. Against a capable peer they just seem too vulnerable - for those enemies you use subs and long-range drones/missiles.
There's no way those new (and internationally illegal) Chinese laws are not designed to intentionally cause conflict:
www.theguardian.com
Although I suspect that in a simultaneous war against all of the neighbours China will not come out intact, despite having close to 2 billion human resources they can throw at the problem - because you can't use infantry at sea without transport.
Philippines increases South China Sea patrols as Beijing set to roll out new trespass laws
Manila has previously described new regulations, which allow Chinese coast guard to detain foreigners, as ‘an escalation of the situation’
www.theguardian.com
Although I suspect that in a simultaneous war against all of the neighbours China will not come out intact, despite having close to 2 billion human resources they can throw at the problem - because you can't use infantry at sea without transport.
PRC is going to pick and choose which countries they want to subdue first. I think they are going at it one at a time.
I put this in the COVID thread, but it's also quite relevant in the Philippines-US-China saga...
Pentagon ran secret anti-vax campaign to undermine China during pandemic
Pentagon ran secret anti-vax campaign to undermine China during pandemic
It of course goes without saying that Trump started this project to undermine our credibility and further botch the COVID response, but also it is discouraging that it took Biden a couple months to stop it.