SCOTUS OT 2023

karolus

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Per your link, her tenure was short and "controversial." Nonetheless, Reagan subsequently appointed her to a three year term to head the NOAA, which understandably riled environmental groups, so she withdrew.

Earlier in her career, she was a member of the Colorado legislature:
She was voted Outstanding Freshman Legislator, but was considered by some to be a member of the "House Crazies," a group of "conservative lawmakers intent on permanently changing government".

It appears the ideologue streak runs in the family. From looking at her upbringing, education, and career, she appeared to have no compelling qualification or reason to have been appointed to environmental positions other than a desire to dismantle them.
 

DarthSlack

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I thought about @Defenestrar's idea and came up with a possibility that gets around Roberts' bullshit. It doesn't need an amendment to pass and would be something a second Biden term could push.

Create an Article III court for every agency with staffers to provide technical expertise with the mandate to interpret agency rules. It's not Chevron, but it's far better than the "every circuit's conflicting interpretation" we're about to get.

You'd need Congress to, well, not be the current Congress. And considering that Congress has spent the last 30-ish years gutting their own offices that provided non-partisan scientific advice, I'm not sure I'm at all optimistic.
 

CPX

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You'd need Congress to, well, not be the current Congress. And considering that Congress has spent the last 30-ish years gutting their own offices that provided non-partisan scientific advice, I'm not sure I'm at all optimistic.

Easier to get a Congressional majority than three quarters of states to ratify an amendment. I hold no pretense that such judges and staffers would be free of partisanship, but consistency in subject matter interpretation is going to be better for everyone involved than the dumb shit we're about to get when the various circuits start bickering about every independent agency rule.
 

Shavano

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Easier to get a Congressional majority than three quarters of states to ratify an amendment.
Amen. Without the congressional majority you can't even get the Amendment passed through Congress, which is step 1 toward getting an Amendment.
I hold no pretense that such judges and staffers would be free of partisanship, but consistency in subject matter interpretation is going to be better for everyone involved than the dumb shit we're about to get when the various circuits start bickering about every independent agency rule.
 
I thought about @Defenestrar's idea and came up with a possibility that gets around Roberts' bullshit. It doesn't need an amendment to pass and would be something a second Biden term could push.

Create an Article III court for every agency with staffers to provide technical expertise with the mandate to interpret agency rules. It's not Chevron, but it's far better than the "every circuit's conflicting interpretation" we're about to get.
That's a rather neat idea and there's plenty of precedent (bankruptcy court, foreign surveillance court, etc...).

As others have pointed out Congress is a bottleneck. Also, since Cheveron wasn't overturned entirely on constitutional grounds (it was in part), Congress could start by revising the APA which is entirely under their purview. But again... Congress.

Which gets me to my personal soapbox which is FPTP voting.
 

CPX

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That's a rather neat idea and there's plenty of precedent (bankruptcy court, foreign surveillance court, etc...).

As others have pointed out Congress is a bottleneck. Also, since Cheveron wasn't overturned entirely on constitutional grounds (it was in part), Congress could start by revising the APA which is entirely under their purview. But again... Congress.

Which gets me to my personal soapbox which is FPTP voting.

Two different legislative solutions to Roberts' bullshit are still preferable to constitutional proposals in the sense we might see them in our lifetime.
 

brazuca

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Two different legislative solutions to Roberts' bullshit are still preferable to constitutional proposals in the sense we might see them in our lifetime.
The problem is the crazy SCOTUS, not Congress. Whatever passes Congress will just be invalidated by this power crazy court under some bullshit reason. Their goal is to remake the republic and the constitution. It’s time to point out that we need to stop this crazy court, that with them in power nothing is safe. No right will survive.
 

DarthSlack

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Easier to get a Congressional majority than three quarters of states to ratify an amendment. I hold no pretense that such judges and staffers would be free of partisanship, but consistency in subject matter interpretation is going to be better for everyone involved than the dumb shit we're about to get when the various circuits start bickering about every independent agency rule.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love for both Congress and the courts to have to get scientific and technical advice on the regular. But apparently that concept is so offensive to enough people that it's just not going to happen. One of the consequences of living in the stupidest possible timeline I suppose.
 
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Auguste_Fivaz

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From what little I know about the overturning of Chevron, this Inside Climate News article appears quite good at looking into all the various impacts this will have, not just on fisheries, the EPA, but also on the SEC and other rule setting bodies. Seems we're in for more diagrams of triggers and less expertise from firearms experts. When people like James Valvo, executive director of Cause of Action Institute and chief policy counsel for Americans for Prosperity, called the decision “one of the most consequential administrative law victories for small businesses in recent memory,” I'm thinking greed wins again.

 

CPX

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From what little I know about the overturning of Chevron, this Inside Climate News article appears quite good at looking into all the various impacts this will have, not just on fisheries, the EPA, but also on the SEC and other rule setting bodies. Seems we're in for more diagrams of triggers and less expertise from firearms experts. When people like James Valvo, executive director of Cause of Action Institute and chief policy counsel for Americans for Prosperity, called the decision “one of the most consequential administrative law victories for small businesses in recent memory,” I'm thinking greed wins again.

Sad irony here is that Chevron originally found for Chevron against environmentalists.

My personal issue frustration is when this current round of asshats finally wades into technology. We already know Thomas wants to basically let ISPs run roughshod as "information services" and regulate social media as "common carriers" in the most malicious possible interpretation of what those are.
 
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nascent

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I've been trying to write this post since the day of oral arguments in the Immunity case, which google tells me was over two months ago. This has me stunned: I honestly thought it had been only a month. Since we're finally getting the opinion today, I'm rushing to get my thoughts out in the interest of seeing whether I have any clue about what's about to come. On a side note, I've apparently learned nothing in the decades since my last serious attempt at finishing college.

There isn't any time left to make this more organized, and everytime I've tried to write this out I ended up spinning my wheels on getting the language and formatting right anyway, so this will just be a bunch of bullet points. It would rapidly get tedious if I prefaced every point with 'in my opinion' and other such qualifiers, but since I'm not a lawyer or even particularly well-informed about the Court, just insert them mentally before any declarative statements.

  • For Roberts, this is The Big One. The case that will determine his legacy. It will be more important to his place in history than Citizens United, more than the Obamacare decision, more even than Dobbs. When a superstar of conservative jurisprudence like Michael Luttig says this will be the most consequential court decision in the history of the Republic, that carries a lot of weight.
  • Roberts has probably been pulling out every political tool, every bit of politesse and internal political capital he has to try to get this as close to unanimous as he can get. The timing of this decision leads me to believe that the delay was part of a deal Roberts struck with Alito et al: In exchange for them coming on board with the obvious decision- the only legally viable or even possible decision, given the facts- they demanded the opinion be postponed as long as possible. Long enough that there was virtually no realistic scenario that a trial, let alone a jury verdict, would come before the election. If I am right about this, then that would seem to imply that the decision will be a massive rejection of any claims of absolute immunity.
  • Because Alito is Alito, however, there will be caveats. He will assert that while the Court of course has jurisdiction in this or any matter it chooses to to address for any reason it chooses to give, if it even chooses to give any- You got a fuckin' problem with that?!?!- and that even the President must bend the knee to their authority, he has reservations about this particular case involving this particular president. There will be some very narrow immunity for even criminal official acts, less immunity for criminal non-official acts, and a lot of quibbling about the distinction between the two categories. He'll bitterly concede The People's need to proceed with these prosecutions, but he'll make sure SCO knows that he is going to be watching them like a hawk, so they'd better mind their p's and q's or he'll shut them down so fast it'll make their little heads spin, and for the last time, GET OFF HIS LAWN!
  • I'm also willing to bet that Roberts factored in the possibility of Thomas and Scalito going rogue if they didn't like the deal they were offered. School's out for summer, so there isn't a lot he will be able to do to them if they decide to start screaming to the press, and two Associate Justices of the Supreme Court of the United States could do incalculable damage to the american political process if they went renegade during perhaps the most crucial presidential election in US history. With only a few months to go before the election and fewer until the canonical First Monday in October, if they weren't given major concessions, they would absolutely be capable of embarking on the judicial equivalent of a terrorist campaign.
  • Fuck it takes me a long time to write. Time's essentially up, so I'm going to stop. I have a whole lot of other thoughts I may add later. If they are correct, I hope you'll trust that I came up with them before the opinions were released.
 
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Louis XVI

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I've been trying to write this post since the day of oral arguments in the Immunity case, which google tells me was over two months ago. This has me stunned: I honestly thought it had been only a month. Since we're finally getting the opinion today, I'm rushing to get my thoughts out in the interest of seeing whether I have any clue about what's about to come. On a side note, I've apparently learned nothing in the decades since my last serious attempt at finishing college.

There isn't any time left to make this more organized, and everytime I've tried to write this out I ended up spinning my wheels on getting the language and formatting right anyway, so this will just be a bunch of bullet points. It would rapidly get tedious if I prefaced every point with 'in my opinion' and other such qualifiers, but since I'm not a lawyer or even particularly well-informed about the Court, just insert them mentally before any declarative statements.
Thanks for this post; it reflects a lot of thought and provides a bunch to chew on.

  • For Roberts, this is The Big One. The case that will determine his legacy. It will be more important to his place in history than Citizens United, more than the Obamacare decision, more even than Dobbs. When a superstar of conservative jurisprudence like Michael Luttig says this will be the most consequential court decision in the history of the Republic, that carries a lot of weight.
I have to disagree with this. As you note below, the legal outcome is obvious—there’s no way there can be presidential immunity without explicitly turning the presidency into an autocracy. Rubber-stamping an obvious conclusion isn’t legacy-defining in the way that things like Citizens United and yesterday’s Chevron case will be.

Moreover, by dragging the decision out so far, the issue is effectively mooted for Trump so long as he finds a way to take power after the next election. That is the key outcome of this case, regardless of what the Court formally announces today.

  • Roberts has probably been pulling out every political tool, every bit of politesse and internal political capital he has to try to get this as close to unanimous as he can get. The timing of this decision leads me to believe that the delay was part of a deal Roberts struck with Alito et al: In exchange for them coming on board with the obvious decision- the only legally viable or even possible decision, given the facts- they demanded the opinion be postponed as long as possible. Long enough that there was virtually no realistic scenario that a trial, let alone a jury verdict, would come before the election. If I am right about this, then that would seem to imply that the decision will be a massive rejection of any claims of absolute immunity.
This seems plausible. Though I wouldn’t be surprised if it was a 7-2 decision and some Justices (maybe Roberts, maybe Alito and Thomas) sat on their opinions long enough to prevent a trial before the election.

  • Because Alito is Alito, however, there will be caveats. He will assert that while the Court of course has jurisdiction in this or any matter it chooses to to address for any reason it chooses to give, if it even chooses to give any- You got a fuckin' problem with that?!?!- and that even the President must bend the knee to their authority, he has reservations about this particular case involving this particular president. There will be some very narrow immunity for even criminal official acts, less immunity for criminal non-official acts, and a lot of quibbling about the distinction between the two categories. He'll bitterly concede The People's need to proceed with these prosecutions, but he'll make sure SCO knows that he is going to be watching them like a hawk, so they'd better mind their p's and q's or he'll shut them down so fast it'll make their little heads spin, and for the last time, GET OFF HIS LAWN!
50 quatloos says Alito finds in favor of absolute immunity, but isn’t close to a majority.

  • I'm also willing to bet that Roberts factored in the possibility of Thomas and Scalito going rogue if they didn't like the deal they were offered. School's out for summer, so there isn't a lot he will be able to do to them if they decide to start screaming to the press, and two Associate Justices of the Supreme Court of the United States could do incalculable damage to the american political process if they went renegade during perhaps the most crucial presidential election in US history. With only a few months to go before the election and fewer until the canonical First Monday in October, if they weren't given major concessions, they would absolutely be capable of embarking on the judicial equivalent of a terrorist campaign.
That seems unlikely. Thomas and Alito are getting more than they could have dreamed of with this Court, and they succeeded in delaying this case long enough to prevent trial before election, which was really all they needed.

  • Fuck it takes me a long time to write. Time's essentially up, so I'm going to stop. I have a whole lot of other thoughts I may add later. If they are correct, I hope you'll trust that I came up with them before the opinions were released.
Thanks again for an interesting piece of writing!

Also, we’re maybe a minute from the decision being announced, so my post has a good likelihood of being the most quickly and hilariously proven wrong post in SoapBox history.

Edit: Yup, wrong, wrong, wrong. Somehow I managed to underestimate the corruption of this Court.
 
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Last day of opinions. Here they are.

Corner Post is 6-3 by Barrett with Jackson dissenting joined by Sotomayor and Kagan. The timeline starts with the date that injures the plaintiff, even if it is after the agency action. This effecively removes time limits for challenging agency action provided one can find a new client/company.

Moody v. Net Choice is effectively 9-0 by Kagan. Content moderation will continue on the internet.

Trump v. US is 6-3 Roberts. The syllabus is longer than many opinions. Still parsing. I've so far gathered that there is no presidential immunity for unofficial acts. There is presidential immunity for official acts. There is a presumption of officialness in the outer perimeter of official duties that needs court evaluation. SCOTUS states that because the lower court quickly handled the case, the record was not developed as to whether or not Trump's actions were official or unofficial. The case is being sent back with some guidance on how to determine that (Section III starting on page 16). It reads very Robertsonian so far - ten thousand foot views and deference to the long-term legal impact rather than the immediate situation.

The actual lineup which is closer to 5.5-3.5:
ROBERTS, C. J., delivered the opinion of the Court, in which THOMAS, ALITO, GORSUCH, and KAVANAUGH, JJ., joined in full, and in which BARRETT, J., joined except as to Part III–C. THOMAS, J., filed a concurring opinion. BARRETT, J., filed an opinion concurring in part. SOTOMAYOR, J., filed a dissenting opinion, in which KAGAN and JACKSON, JJ., joined. JACKSON, J., filed a dissenting opinion.

(Will update for a bit as they're dropped).
 
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This passage is a significant blow for Trump:

Chief Roberts said:
Trump asserts a far broader immunity than the limited one we have recognized. He contends that the indictment must be dismissed because the Impeachment Judgment Clause requires that impeachment and Senate conviction precede a President’s criminal prosecution. The text of the Clause provides little support for such an absolute immunity
 
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Vlip

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This passage is a significant blow for Trump:
Only if you accept that Trump losing one of this cartoonish argument is a "blow" after SCOTUS basically gave any republican president carte blanche to do whatever the fuck they want while in office.

SCOTUS basically garanteed he won't face justice before the election making him effectively immune if he wins in November and even if he loses, SCOTUS just handed Trump another merry go round through the courts and entire appeals process to decide wether each of his indictements are "official acts" or not. A term so losely defined it's basically handing the keys to the country to any future president who fancies himself autocrat for life, you know, like Trump...

"a significant blow"... yeah right, that's like patting oneself on the shoulder for scratching the paint on the enemy's battleship while holding for dear life on your own sunken ship's flotsam with sharks circling around you.
 

Ecmaster76

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This passage is a significant blow for Trump:
I'm not sure how much good trying to discuss the details is going to do but good on you for trying

It does address that unofficial acts do not have immunity as well and points out that some of Trump's conduct likely falls in that category
 

Nekojin

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Like Starbuck said, this is entirely expected. There's no way that the Supreme Court would want to permanently give up any potential "leash" they could have on Trump if he starts gutting the government. Giving him blanket immunity would have done that.

Nothing changed, functionally. It was just an extended waste of time, giving him the cover he needed to hopefully (from their perspective) get back in office before the hammer falls.
 

wallinbl

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I'm not sure how much good trying to discuss the details is going to do but good on you for trying

It does address that unofficial acts do not have immunity as well and points out that some of Trump's conduct likely falls in that category
But, basically says "conversations with his staff are official", and almost all of what he did was tell other people to do stuff.
 
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I'm not sure how much good trying to discuss the details is going to do but good on you for trying

It does address that unofficial acts do not have immunity as well and points out that some of Trump's conduct likely falls in that category
I think this is ultimately a loss for Trump - in the long term. But only provided prosecution is allowed to continue. Since special prosecutors do not have complete job security - that means it's up to the election from a practical standpoint. Of course, delaying the case sufficiently to get to an election is what he wanted - so this is a win for him in that way.
 
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Vlip

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SCOTUS decided that official acts enjoy absolute immunity.
That's a loop hole wide enough to get an entire carrier battlegroup through.

"Order the DOJ to charge and arrest your opponent"? Official act
"Order the military to drone strike a few senators on "suspected terrorism charges"? Official act

Any bold wannabe autocrat will leverage that shit so fast there won't be anyone left alive to keep him in check when the "is it an official act, yes or no?" question comes to SCOTUS five years down the road. Hell, the SCOTUS justice might find themselves on the wrong side of an official act before they get to decide.

This is insanity.
 

BigVince

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It’s great, they give a kingly level of immunity to the president knowing that Dems would never take advantage to the full extent because of weird Norms and Ethics.
Id love to see a Democrat president run ruff shod on government the way Trump wants to but now with immunity to push the bounds of the constitution and rule of law. The sounds of whiplash on republicans would ring out all over the world.
 
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I think this is ultimately a loss for Trump - in the long term. But only provided prosecution is allowed to continue. Since special prosecutors do not have complete job security - that means it's up to the election from a practical standpoint. Of course, delaying the case sufficiently to get to an election is what he wanted - so this is a win for him in that way.
It’s almost like the court is a 6-3 court that ruled to give huge gifts to Trump so he can has as few obstacles as possible to being elected this year, and thus the court is not a 3-3-3 as you have liked to say.
The actual lineup which is closer to 5.5-3.5:
Sorry/Not Sorry, but this is just absurd hair splitting.
 

nascent

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So apparently no absolute immunity, but presumptive immunity, which is Conservative Judicial Activist talk for ' Go ahead, bring as many prosecutions against our guy as you want. Just don't be surprised when we make you justify every single part of your case on any schedule we damned well please. Have a nice day!'.

This makes me sick. I am literally queasy from the blast of adrenaline that hit me when scotusblog announced the decision.

I believe that Cannon has been delaying the documents case as long as possible waiting for this ruling: if the Court ruled against immunity, she'd have political/career cover to let SCO proceed, and if it ruled in favor she'd have the pretext to shut their case down she's been looking for since this landed in her lap. Because Roberts was able to get the other FedSocs on board with his 'No, but kinda yes' decision, I suspect she will keep doing what she's been doing, but with a little less circumspection: she'll ramp up her campaign of delay and sabotage without actually crossing any lines, and if we're lucky we may see a trial date late next year.

That'll do it for me today, I think. This case has had me so keyed up I've been largely avoiding online discussions for over a month because the need to lash out at somebody- anybody- for any thing just to relieve the strain has been overwhelming. After this decision, it will take me a few days to get back to any sort of rational state of mind, so I'm going to jump back into bed with Lae'zel my journey to Moonrise towers and have a few drinks. You all enjoy yourselves.




And once again, JESUS FUCKING CHRIST.
 

cblais19

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It’s almost like the court is a 6-3 court that ruled to give huge gifts to Trump so he can has as few obstacles as possible to being elected this year, and thus the court is not a 3-3-3 as you have liked to say.

Sorry/Not Sorry, but this is just absurd hair splitting.

I think it can be a 3-3-3 court in terms of locus excepting anything that benefits trump directly. The nuance there is that 3 are as far authoritarian and demolish the government as is possible, 3 occasionally feel the need to apply some sort of legal reasoning, and 3 are off the map compared to the other 6 to the left writing increasingly sad dissents.
 
So apparently no absolute immunity, but presumptive immunity, which is Conservative Judicial Activist talk for ' Go ahead, bring as many prosecutions against our guy as you want. Just don't be surprised when we make you justify every single part of your case on any schedule we damned well please. Have a nice day!'.

This makes me sick. I am literally queasy from the blast of adrenaline that hit me when scotusblog announced the decision.

I believe that Cannon has been delaying the documents case as long as possible waiting for this ruling: if the Court ruled against immunity, she'd have political/career cover to let SCO proceed, and if it ruled in favor she'd have the pretext to shut their case down she's been looking for since this landed in her lap. Because Roberts was able to get the other FedSocs on board with his 'No, but kinda yes' decision, I suspect she will keep doing what she's been doing, but with a little less circumspection: she'll ramp up her campaign of delay and sabotage without actually crossing any lines, and if we're lucky we may see a trial date late next year.

That'll do it for me today, I think. This case has had me so keyed up I've been largely avoiding online discussions for over a month because the need to lash out at somebody- anybody- for any thing just to relieve the strain has been overwhelming. After this decision, it will take me a few days to get back to any sort of rational state of mind, so I'm going to jump back into bed with Lae'zel my journey to Moonrise towers and have a few drinks. You all enjoy yourselves.




And once again, JESUS FUCKING CHRIST.
I am very excited for certain people in this thread to try to post reams of legal justification and intellectual onanism that pretend that this was actually a good ruling by SCOTUS and they are still somehow a legitimate institution that deserves serious consideration.

I’ll just keep it short, jbouie over on BlueSky said something quite fun that Biden could do now that he has the power:
we can get six new supreme court justices if biden has the courage to do what needs to be done