SCOTUS OT 2023

It is also not like Congress will fully fund the agencies to go to all those trials, which means - in practice - less controls and oversight.
Oh, it gets much more targeted than just that. Not providing funds for agencies in order to render specific rules, regulations, or stipulations of U.S.C. toothless, even if a particular organization inside a department/agency is fully funded.

It’s INCREDIBLY common.

But this isn’t the thread for that…
 

CPX

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This decision isn't forcing a trial; the accused may still settle of course or the government can drop the case. But if the administration wishes to get a judgement against you then why wouldn't the 7th apply?

"Its too much work to do things the right way" is a terrible excuse for the government and we aren't lacking in recent examples of abuse that demonstrate why thats so (immigration, surveillance of US citizens, civil asset forfeiture, etc)

I'll share the relevant part for you:

Chief Justice Roberts said:
On that basis, we have repeatedly explained that matters concerning private rights may not be removed from Article III courts. Murray’s Lessee, 18 How., at 284; Granfinanciera, 492 U. S., at 51–52; Stern, 564 U. S., at 484. A hallmark that we have looked to in determining if a suit concerns private rights is whether it “is made of ‘the stuff of the traditional actions at common law tried by the courts at Westminster in 1789.’” Id., at 484 (quoting Northern Pipeline Constr. Co. v. Marathon Pipe Line Co., 458 U. S. 50, 90 (1982) (Rehnquist, J., concurring in judgment)). If a suit is in the nature of an action at common law, then the matter presumptively concerns private rights, and adjudication by an Article III court is mandatory. Stern, 564 U. S., at 484.

So yes, literally forcing the matter into a federal court.
 

karolus

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This will likely end or deeply constrain the ability of the administrative state writ large to hold rule breakers accountable. Agencies do not have the staff or funding to pursue trials across the board for violations of statue in civil matters.

It’s also getting nearly impossible to sue the same “persons” who just got more protection, from the harmed citizen perspective. The Dissent also notes that this further sets the “Rule of Law” to be a maxim of Court above all, instead of a co-equal partner and neutral arbiter.

Edit: Another step down the "Nice administrative state you have there, be a shame if something (6 conservative Supreme Court justices) were to happen to it."
This path appears to be more in line of what Nancy MacLean covered in Democracy in Chains. Acolytes of Hayek got this instituted in Chile—and it's essentially hamstrung the government—making it toothless to push back against the oligarchy. It's completely undemocratic.
 

Ecmaster76

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These are statutory rulings, not suits at common law. There will never be a jury requirement in immigration cases. And processes for equitable remedies will also not be covered.
I wasn't implying that my other examples warranted jury trial. Just that they are illustrations of government abuse justified by expediency
So yes, literally forcing the matter into a federal court.
Its confirming the accused can invoke their right to trial. This puts more pressure on the government to negotiate settlements; you wont actually see many of these ever go to court if so. Perhaps there may even be less appeals overall.
 

CPX

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Its confirming the accused can invoke their right to trial. This puts more pressure on the government to negotiate settlements; you wont actually see many of these ever go to court if so. Perhaps there may even be less appeals overall.

This is honestly besides the point. The opinion is a pretty significant arterial cut to whatever good Dodd-Frank gave us. Apologies for saying it "forces a trial". It forces the matter out of SEC purview. The imprecision was my fault.
 
Oh, it gets much more targeted than just that. Not providing funds for agencies in order to render specific rules, regulations, or stipulations of U.S.C. toothless, even if a particular organization inside a department/agency is fully funded.

It’s INCREDIBLY common.

But this isn’t the thread for that…
Wouldn't it be fun if it there was convergence of the threads. I've seen it in state courts where the government has been successfully sued for underfunding obligations mandated by state law (e.g. education). Washington's Supreme Court even held the Washington Legislature in contempt a number of years back because even after losing a suit they didn't reallocate (or raise) appropriations in a timely manner.
 

N4M8-

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Its confirming the accused can invoke their right to trial. This puts more pressure on the government to negotiate settlements; you wont actually see many of these ever go to court if so. Perhaps there may even be less appeals overall.
Did you read the dissent?

The Seventh Amendment guarantees the right to a jury in, "Suits at common law"--where the majority and dissent disagree in what is covered.
 

Louis XVI

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How broad do y’all think the SEC holding is? If it’s limited to some subset of federal administrative hearings, I suppose it could be bad but tolerable, but if it encompasses anything close to all state and federal administrative hearings, it would be catastrophic to efforts to maintain a huge number of government functions.
 

CPX

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How broad do y’all think the SEC holding is? If it’s limited to some subset of federal administrative hearings, I suppose it could be bad but tolerable, but if it encompasses anything close to all state and federal administrative hearings, it would be catastrophic to efforts to maintain a huge number of government functions.

Roberts did his usual "the Government knows what we consider historically tolerable" so he doesn't have to lay out an explicit list with which to be held so the court can snipe at regulatory agencies at the court's discretion. He offered a list of areas "the court will likely not intrude upon".
 
Considering that the original grant was for the following:
1. Whether statutory provisions that empower the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) to initiate and adjudicate administrative enforcement proceedings seeking civil penalties violate the Seventh Amendment.
2. Whether statutory provisions that authorize the SEC to choose to enforce the securities laws through an agency adjudication instead of filing a district court action violate the nondelegation doctrine.
3. Whether Congress violated Article II by granting for-cause removal protection to administrative law judges in agencies whose heads enjoy for-cause removal protection.

The court stopped after reaching a conclusion to the first question. Hitting the second question or especially the third question could have made the case incredibly broad. It's split decisions like this that emphasize that while four votes grant cert (including all three of those questions) it takes at least five in consensus to reach a binding opinion. That means even if four of those votes would have liked to reach the merits on all three questions there were at least two who needed this more limited ruling to sign on. (Assuming nobody changed their position after receiving the full set of written and oral arguments - which is probably a bad assumption). Roberts likes his opinions more narrow than not, and he got his way this time.

Since others were talking about it, for reference, here's the Seventh Amendment:
In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.
 
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Happysin

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Roberts did his usual "the Government knows what we consider historically tolerable" so he doesn't have to lay out an explicit list with which to be held so the court can snipe at regulatory agencies at the court's discretion. He offered a list of areas "the court will likely not intrude upon".
Which will be immediately followed up in a ruling next year with a petulant "are you all idiots, I told you where the limits were!" Except the SCOTUS didn't, of course.
 

ramases

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Though it causes a lot of dislocation, I think the Purdue Pharma case was correctly decided. The Sacklers should not be shielded from personal liability without pledging their assets to the bankruptcy estate.

I've always found the notion that this was the best way to get the money for victims ridiculous. You have those criminal and civil forfeiture laws in the US, which are supposed to allow confiscation of gsins made through things like drug pushing.

Now I don't agree with them in some very fundamental ways, and think that especially civil forfeiture is silly, moronic, lacking in adequate protection of innocents, and quite in general is implemented in a fucking stupid way in the US. But you have those laws on the books, and since you got them I really don't see a better case to apply them than the present one.
 
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Happysin

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I've always found the notion that this was the best way to get the money for victims ridiculous. You have those criminal and civil forfeiture laws in the US, which are supposed to allow confiscation of gsins made through things like drug pushing.

Now I don't agree with them in some very fundamental ways, and think that especially civil forfeiture is silly, moronic, lacking in adequate protection of innocents, and quite in general is implemented in a fucking stupid way in the US. But you have those laws on the books, and since you got them I really don't see a better case to apply them than the present one.
Those kinds of laws are for little people.
 

Happysin

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I'm terrified they're going to nuke Chevron tomorrow... They're going to essentially make the judiciary in charge of the executive branch. No agency is going to be able to operate without deference to the fifth fucking circuit.
Better now than before the election. Make the outcomes of that a pillar of the Trump legacy, and upcoming presidency.
 

GMBigKev

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Better now than before the election. Make the outcomes of that a pillar of the Trump legacy, and upcoming presidency.

It won't matter if he wins or loses because it's just going to kill the federal government's ability to do anything that isn't explicitly spelled out by Congress. Everything will run through Trumpy judges who'll do everything in their power to neuter agency's capabilities.

Chevron dying will be the death knell of the federal government.
 
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Happysin

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It won't matter if he wins or loses because it's just going to kill the federal government's ability to do anything that isn't explicitly spelled out by Congress. Everything will run through Trumpy judges who'll do everything in their power to neuter agency's capabilities.

Chevron dying will be the death knell of the federal government.
It matters a ton if it happens beforehand, because it means Biden could have a mandate to pack the courts, force the issue, and make the states sue for the feds ignoring the decision. Sure, that's still a lot of short-term hurt, but at least there's a path.
 
I would like to see a pressure movement from Democrats, both politicians and voters, to move forward with packing the courts. I would love to see a SCOTUS with 15-27 members, so that Roberts & the other clowns on the GOP side will be squarely outnumbered for the rest of their miserable careers. If they even still have careers, if we can get majorities in Congress to impeach & convict them to throw them the fuck out like they deserve.
 

CPX

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I would like to see a pressure movement from Democrats, both politicians and voters, to move forward with packing the courts. I would love to see a SCOTUS with 15-27 members, so that Roberts & the other clowns on the GOP side will be squarely outnumbered for the rest of their miserable careers. If they even still have careers, if we can get majorities in Congress to impeach & convict them to throw them the fuck out like they deserve.

I don't know about SCOTUS, but the Democrats would have a new justification for adding a bunch of new judges across the board given the myriad flood of cases heading to courts.
 

Shavano

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I'm terrified they're going to nuke Chevron tomorrow... They're going to essentially make the judiciary in charge of the executive branch. No agency is going to be able to operate without deference to the fifth fucking circuit.
This is what impeachment was made for. Too bad it's an almost impossible to exercise procedure.
 
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Shavano

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It won't matter if he wins or loses because it's just going to kill the federal government's ability to do anything that isn't explicitly spelled out by Congress. Everything will run through Trumpy judges who'll do everything in their power to neuter agency's capabilities.

Chevron dying will be the death knell of the federal government.
and even if it is they exceeded their authority because the court doesn't like it.
 

Ajar

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Barrett opens her dissent in the EPA case with a hefty salvo:


She hits hard against the majority claim regarding the lack of evidence used by the EPA in its decision:


The dissent is lengthy and concludes thus (emphasis mine):
Pretty potent stuff. There's now a front page article about it:

 
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Four(ish) decisions today (Loper Bright covers two cases):

City of Grants Pass v. Johnson is 6-3 by Gorsuch with Sotomayor dissenting joined by Kagan and Jackson. SCOTUS holds that public camping ordinances are not a violation of the Eighth Amendment.

Loper Bright Enterprises v. Raimondo is 6-3 (and 6-2) by Roberts with Sotomayor dissenting joined by Kagan and Jackson (for the case she wasn't recused on). SCOTUS holds "The Administrative Procedure Act requires courts to exercise their independent judgment in deciding whether an agency has acted within its statutory authority, and courts may not defer to an agency interpretation of the law simply because a statute is ambiguous; Chevron is overruled."

Fischer v. US is 6-3 by Roberts, Barrett dissents joined by Sotomayor and Kagan. SCOTUS holds "To prove a violation of §1512(c)(2), the Government must establish that the defendant impaired the availability or integrity for use in an official proceeding of records, documents, objects, or other things used in an official proceeding, or attempted to do so." Fischer is vacated and remanded.

Roberts announced that Monday will be the last day of the term - so every other decision should come by then. (We should still get the clean-up order list after the last day of the term, but perhaps because that would have been Monday they'll be the same day).
 
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GMBigKev

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Decisions today:

City of Grants Pass v. Johnson is 6-3 by Gorsuch with Sotomayor dissenting joined by Kagan and Jackson. SCOTUS holds that public camping ordinances are not a violation of the Eighth Amendment.

More to come

I like Sotomayor's finishing quote...

"I remain hopeful that someday in the near future, this Court will play its role in safeguarding constitutional liberties for the most vulnerable among us. Because the Court today abdicates that role, I respectfully dissent."
 
The GOP SCOTUS Members enabled homelessness to be criminalized, and Chevron is gone as well.

I think that people should just start ignoring what SCOTUS says and does from now on. I would like for the federal agencies and regulators to keep regulating and tell the Trump Appointee Judges and other hacks that try to sue them to go eat shit and pound sand.
 

Ecmaster76

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I like Sotomayor's finishing quote...

"I remain hopeful that someday in the near future, this Court will play its role in safeguarding constitutional liberties for the most vulnerable among us. Because the Court today abdicates that role, I respectfully dissent."
This one is incredibly straight forward though. The eighth addresses the manner of punishment, not the implications of policy. Imprisonment, in the general sense, is not inherently cruel and courts should not be in the business of deciding which laws are too mean
 

GMBigKev

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This one is incredibly straight forward though. The eighth addresses the manner of punishment, not the implications of policy. Imprisonment, in the general sense, is not inherently cruel and courts should not be in the business of deciding which laws are too mean

It literally criminalizes homelessness. If you have no home you have to sleep outdoors. Now you're not able to do that.
 

Ecmaster76

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It literally criminalizes homelessness. If you have no home you have to sleep outdoors. Now you're not able to do that.
I dont disagree that the prohibition is potentially cruel and that cities need to provide some kind of designated space for camps or to do better for providing shelters. That, unfortunately is not enshrined as a right.

At some point the state has to be able to move people out of a public space for any number of reasons including for their own safety. Many of those people will refuse and there needs to be a legal basis to compel them. Threats of fines are pointless as a practical matter (except to keep the rich from camping) and the threat of jail is pretty much the only other tool left
 

Thegn

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I dont disagree that the prohibition is potentially cruel and that cities need to provide some kind of designated space for camps or to do better for providing shelters. That, unfortunately is not enshrined as a right.

At some point the state has to be able to move people out of a public space for any number of reasons including for their own safety. Many of those people will refuse and there needs to be a legal basis to compel them. Threats of fines are pointless as a practical matter (except to keep the rich from camping) and the threat of jail is pretty much the only other tool left
I wish to remind you that the issue at stake wasn't that homelessness couldn't be regulated, it was that the standard before was that you had to provide an alternative for the homeless other than just telling them to GTFO. Now the standard is that you can just tell them to GTFO, and not provide any alternative.
 
Decisions today:

City of Grants Pass v. Johnson is 6-3 by Gorsuch with Sotomayor dissenting joined by Kagan and Jackson. SCOTUS holds that public camping ordinances are not a violation of the Eighth Amendment.

Loper Bright Enterprises v. Raimondo is 6-3 (and 6-2) by Roberts with Sotomayor dissenting joined by Kagan and Jackson (for the case she wasn't recused on). Chevron is overruled.

More to come
Remind me again why you thought/still think a 3-3-3 split exists?
 
Remind me again why you thought/still think a 3-3-3 split exists?
Well, picking a different 6-3 case today
Fischer v. US is 6-3 by Roberts, Barrett dissents joined by Sotomayor and Kagan.
As I've mentioned before, it's no surprise that center-conservative and far-conservative justices will still agree on conservative cases. Although I think this term will show that Barrett has moved left of Gorsuch. We'll have to do number crunching after everything is done for the term. Remember, it's a spectrum. No judge is monolithic (note that Jackson found for Fischer here).
 
Well, picking a different 6-3 case today

As I've mentioned before, it's no surprise that center-conservative and far-conservative justices will still agree on conservative cases. Although I think this term will show that Barrett has moved left of Gorsuch. We'll have to do number crunching after everything is done for the term. Remember, it's a spectrum. No judge is monolithic (note that Jackson found for Fischer here).
The moment you edited your post I knew you were gonna bring that up. She has moved "left" of Jack and Shit. She voted alongside her GOP buddies to criminalize homelessness and kill Chevron. Painting it as a broad spectrum with these rare swaps in the usual 6-3 majority is a convenient way for centrists to pretend that the SCOTUS that we have right now is fair and legitimate. It isn't.
 
The moment you edited your post I knew you were gonna bring that up. She has moved "left" of Jack and Shit. She voted alongside her GOP buddies to criminalize homelessness and kill Chevron. Painting it as a broad spectrum with these rare swaps in the usual 6-3 majority is a convenient way for centrists to pretend that the SCOTUS that we have right now is fair and legitimate. It isn't.
We can go back over the last two days for recent examples as well.
Murthy v. Missouri is 6-3 by Barrett with Alito dissenting joined by Thomas and Gorsuch. SCOTUS holds that neither the states nor the individual social media users have standing to sue over whether the government censored speech on social media by pressuring those platforms.

Harrington v. Perdue Pharma is 5-4 by Gorsuch, Kavanaugh dissenting joined by Roberts, Sotomayor, and Kagan. SCOTUS holds that the bankruptcy code does not allow for the acceptance of a settlement that immunizes the Sackler family from further claims by non-litigants.

Ohio v. EPA is 5-4 by Gorsuch with Barrett dissenting joined by Sotomayor, Kagan, and Jackson. The court puts the EPA's good neighbor act on hold until the case is heard further in lower courts.
Again, as I've said before, a 3-3-3 perspective is merely an analysis tool. Nobody contests that the court has moved more conservative than when Kennedy was the center.
 
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