The 2024 Presidential Election - Oops, We Did It Again

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Paladin

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  • #2,001
    Oh... the other thread was locked. I was confused for a moment.

    @CPX, your question "how exactly did Al Franken make a mockery of the legislative system to the degree of Boebert or MTG? Show your work." in regard to my list of people who have been crappy while in office was basically a result of me thinking of those who stood out as particularly crappy recently, coming up with MTG and Boebert and then thinking, "Not really fair if I only list R/Q party members, is it?" So I racked my brains for some scandals for D-folks and remembered that Al Franken was forced to resign due to multiple sexual misconduct allegations (some of them at least were fairly questionable as unfortunate mistakes, to again try to be fair). Just trying to be clear on both sides.

    It's not particularly important though. I am sure there must be other examples of jerkwards in the government from both sides of the fence but that was what I came up with in the moment.
     
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    Delor

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  • #2,002
    Nekojin said:
    People keep forgetting - we're not voting for just the man. We're voting for Joe Biden and Kamala Harris, sure. But we're also voting for:
    Click to expand...
    Lina Khan
    Rohit Chopra

    Khan's one of the few things about the Biden administration that has made me feel reliably good about having Biden in office.
     
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    CPX

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  • #2,003
    Paladin said:
    Oh... the other thread was locked. I was confused for a moment.

    @CPX, your question "how exactly did Al Franken make a mockery of the legislative system to the degree of Boebert or MTG? Show your work." in regard to my list of people who have been crappy while in office was basically a result of me thinking of those who stood out as particularly crappy recently, coming up with MTG and Boebert and then thinking, "Not really fair if I only list R/Q party members, is it?" So I racked my brains for some scandals for D-folks and remembered that Al Franken was forced to resign due to multiple sexual misconduct allegations (some of them at least were fairly questionable as unfortunate mistakes, to again try to be fair). Just trying to be clear on both sides.

    It's not particularly important though. I am sure there must be other examples of jerkwards in the government from both sides of the fence but that was what I came up with in the moment.
    Click to expand...

    Plenty, like Senator Bob Menendez or Rep Henry Cuellar currently indicted for real crimes. Franken was a victim of Gillibrand trying to boost her own profile and succeeding. But even Democratic critters guilty of actual crime manage semi-competent behavior in the legislative bodies so this "both sides" nonsense undermines whatever fairness you tried to reach toward.
     
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    Berhune

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  • #2,004
    I'm voting for more than one person this November. I'm voting for a team and for ideas. Turning the election at this stage into Succession is just going to obliterate the whole experienced cabinet that makes Biden, no matter his energy levels, a better choice than any other individual right now.

    I'm disappointed that he couldn't muster more vigor and agility at the debate, too, but it's not the most important thing to me. I'm sure much of the American public will disagree, but I just can't imagine they'll be any more impressed by a headless party in chaos, or less skeptical of the unknown quantity that would eventually emerge from such a dust up. If "anyone but Trump" is the bar, then Biden already meets it.
     
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  • #2,005
    In the other thread I said Joe Scarborough would be a bellwether for support to remove Biden, as he's been his biggest cheerleader in media. Just months ago he said Biden was better cognitively than he's ever been.

    View: https://youtu.be/COQf3U1KzHw?si=N6prdxrtfT_HnCdh


    Just one of many who have been lying to the public to protect him. Well, morning Joe threw in the towel, so I guess the whole blob is after Biden. But he seems to be way too stubborn to go willingly.

    Monologue starts at 4 min.

    View: https://youtu.be/BWwhNR14Cgg?si=aUIdwiTLeaYbcGBx
     
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  • #2,007
    And we're back to that old saying, "You go to war with the army you have, not the army you want."

    We've seen Donald Trump. None of us want him. Biden's administration overall has actually been pretty good. I'd prefer him to be swapped out for someone younger, but if the choice is between him and Trump, I'll take Biden in a heartbeat.
     
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    Thank You and Best of Luck!

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  • #2,009
    First let me say, the time to switch out Biden was probably several months ago when a proper primary could have been conducted. It needed to be normal and orderly on the other side of Biden being pragmatic and gracious. Not exigent and spastic on the other side of quasi-forced ouster.

    However, I’m having a hard time understanding at this point why people think it’s so risky to run someone other than Biden against Trump.

    The overwhelming majority of Biden voters are voting against Trump, not for Biden. This strongly indicates that any largely inoffensive D would capture those same votes. So, if you run a different candidate, which votes are you losing?

    There’s a contingent of voters who don’t want to vote for Trump, but also don’t want to vote for Biden because they think he’s too old. So, if you run a different candidate, you gain them back. That’s not risky.

    There’s then this concern that some other milquetoast D wouldn’t be able to energize big voter turnout, but that’s just a false premise to begin with. Joe Biden isn’t energizing voter turnout, and seems like he may risk depressing it. Donald Trump is the one energizing voter turnout both for and against him. The entire election is about Donald Trump, not about his opponent.

    So, it seems to me the most likely winning path forward is a D candidate for whom voters have at least a, “Sure. Why not?” level of enthusiasm, and who doesn’t have any pointlessly divisive/controversial innate qualities which only serve to virtue signal how progressively avant garde Democrats want to pretend to be.

    If you pick apart the circumstances, it seems like a total unknown could beat Trump as long as 99% of the messaging and campaigning is about energizing people to get out and defeat Trump. Because the biggest liability that the Democrats have with Biden is precisely that he’s a known quantity. Everyone seems to be considering that an advantage, but context doesn’t seem to support that.
     
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    Fit&NerdyFSUgirl

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  • #2,010
    Thegn said:
    And we're back to that old saying, "You go to war with the army you have, not the army you want."

    We've seen Donald Trump. None of us want him. Biden's administration overall has actually been pretty good. I'd prefer him to be swapped out for someone younger, but if the choice is between him and Trump, I'll take Biden in a heartbeat.
    Click to expand...
    With Biden in the campaign all the attention from the media, experts, pundits, etc is going on be on Biden's age and the fact he is not capable of fulfilling the role of President.

    Media will spend the next five months debating if Kamala Harris should step in before or after the election, asking when someone is going to enact the 25th. They are already doing that right now. So instead of fact checking Trumps lies, hitting him on his past administration's failures, and focusing on his corruption, we will get 24/7 "25th amendment watch" with cool graphics and countdown clocks.

    Trump will get a free ride because the press won't be able to stop focusing on the over/under for when Kamala steps in. Trump was the circus clown, now Biden's campaign has become all three rings. At this point, just make Kamala the offical candidate so everyone can rally around her.
     
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    theevilsharpie

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  • #2,011
    NOBODY is changing their vote on Biden because of the debate. The people who claim that they aren't voting for Biden because he's too old (while conveniently ignoring Trump's age and obviously declining mental faculties) were never going to vote for Biden anyway and are just concern trolling, while low-information voters that are undecided aren't paying attention to politics this far out from election day.

    Meanwhile, voting blocs that have been leaning more toward Trump lately but aren't completely locked in (particularly Latinos) got to witness nearly an hour of Trump spouting unhinged and offensive bullshit, and it wouldn't surprise me to see Trump's approval drop because of it.

    Can we chill with the doomerism?
     
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  • #2,012
    Thank You and Best of Luck! said:
    However, I’m having a hard time understanding at this point why people think it’s so risky to run someone other than Biden against Trump.

    The overwhelming majority of Biden voters are voting against Trump, not for Biden. This strongly indicates that any largely inoffensive D would capture those same votes. So, if you run a different candidate, which votes are you losing?
    Click to expand...

    You lose an incredibly well-known incumbent as your candidate, and gain a media narrative that your party is in complete disarray because you changed out candidate at the last minute because of media pressure after a single debate.

    Is it so risky versus just a little risky? Not sure. What I don't think is that there's anyone likely to put forward that is significantly better than Biden, so I don't see any reason to take unprecedented steps and the risk that comes with them. I'm not more confident in "blank cardboard cutout that people can vote for over Trump" than Biden. I can't take anyone calling for Biden to step down seriously unless they actually endorse a successor and defend their decision now that they've given us a concrete target to consider instead of just nebulously echoing our anxieties back at us without seriously thinking about what acting upon them would mean.

    It's also just really distressing to watch the media Dean Scream someone again, but this time instead of just a candidate it's actually the guy currently in office and who already won the primary. That's now how we should be selecting our leaders.
     
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  • #2,013
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    Fit&NerdyFSUgirl

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  • #2,014
    theevilsharpie said:
    NOBODY is changing their vote on Biden because of the debate. The people who claim that they aren't voting for Biden because he's too old (while conveniently ignoring Trump's age and obviously declining mental faculties) were never going to vote for Biden anyway and are just concern trolling, while low-information voters that are undecided aren't paying attention to politics this far out from election day.

    Meanwhile, voting blocs that have been leaning more toward Trump lately but aren't completely locked in (particularly Latinos) got to witness nearly an hour of Trump spouting unhinged and offensive bullshit, and it wouldn't surprise me to see Trump's approval drop because of it.

    Can we chill with the doomerism?
    Click to expand...
    You are missing the point that the entire media coverage from now until the election is going to focus on Biden's age and health and how long until he is removed or steps down. Trump will get a unintentional free pass.
     
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  • #2,015
    Fit&NerdyFSUgirl said:
    You are missing the point that the entire media coverage from now until the election is going to focus on Biden's age and health and how long until he is removed or steps down. Trump will get a unintentional free pass.
    Click to expand...
    It seems like a smaller lift to me to redirect that narrative, either because time blunts it, the media gets distracted, or Biden assuages with more public appearances like those since the debate, than to risk letting media gorge on infighting Democrats. The only way a replacement works is if Democrats (voters and officials!) can agree on a single better candidate in both short order and without fuss. And have you seen all the different interest groups in the Democratic party? Biden is the president and the nominee right now because of his unity message and his track record.

    He has also been a good president under the circumstances, which is another thing that gets thrown into question if you change horses.
     
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  • #2,016
    I mean I don’t really understand the need for so many people to defend the idea of voting for Biden instead of Trump. I’d be shocked if anyone in this thread would admit to voting for Trump over Biden or even not voting at all. We are all on the same page.

    The problem is that Biden’s most important job between now and November is convincing a handful of morons in swing states to vote for him over Trump or convincing a large handful of people who hate everything to do with politics to vote for Biden instead of noping out entirely.

    This disastrous debate performance wasn’t about us, people in this thread, but about them. That’s where the panic and anxiety comes from (apparent panic and anxiety that will cause people to question motivations). Like who responding in here doesn’t know that Biden’s team is better than whatever poop soup Trump comes up with?
     
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    DarthSlack

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  • #2,017
    Fit&NerdyFSUgirl said:
    You are missing the point that the entire media coverage from now until the election is going to focus on Biden's age and health and how long until he is removed or steps down. Trump will get a unintentional free pass.
    Click to expand...

    In case you hadn't noticed, the press has already been harping on Biden's age since he announced. And Trump has gotten a free pass for the entirety of his public career. Nothing about the debate changed either of those things.

    And once again since nobody seems to want to answer this: Who replaces Biden? And how? Delegates have been selected already, and rules are that they need to vote for their candidate, at least to start. We gonna start just throwing the rules out now because of one bad debate?
     
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    Lt_Storm

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  • #2,018
    Fit&NerdyFSUgirl said:
    You are missing the point that the entire media coverage from now until the election is going to focus on Biden's age and health and how long until he is removed or steps down. Trump will get a unintentional free pass.
    Click to expand...
    Because of how the media fundamentally works (it is an uneven playing field) this is true no matter who is sitting in the hot seat. Fox News et al. will come up with a reason that whatever candidate you pick is unfit and harp on it until the NYT et al. covers their harping. And then will get a free pass regardless. That is how we got to the current media situation and it is entirely repeatable as Biden wasn't the first time they did it.
     
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    Paladin

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  • #2,019
    CPX said:
    Plenty, like Senator Bob Menendez or Rep Henry Cuellar currently indicted for real crimes. Franken was a victim of Gillibrand trying to boost her own profile and succeeding. But even Democratic critters guilty of actual crime manage semi-competent behavior in the legislative bodies so this "both sides" nonsense undermines whatever fairness you tried to reach toward.
    Click to expand...
    ;) no problem, I will try harder to be unfair next time. :biggreen: But thanks for pointing out the more heavy hitters I forgot. Menendez was one in particular I was scratching around in my skull for.
     
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    Technarch

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  • #2,020
    Lt_Storm said:
    Because of how the media fundamentally works (it is an uneven playing field) this is true no matter who is sitting in the hot seat. Fox News et al. will come up with a reason that whatever candidate you pick is unfit and harp on it until the NYT et al. covers their harping. And then will get a free pass regardless. That is how we got to the current media situation and it is entirely repeatable as Biden wasn't the first time they did it.
    Click to expand...

    This. The uneven media coverage isn't unique to Biden. In fact it's clear that age is the only thing that the media can plausibly attack Biden on, if he were ten years younger he'd be bulletproof.
     
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  • #2,024
    We have an important update for those who are in the panic room or would prefer to see Biden step down in favor of an alternative. The heavens have parted and divine word has been given from on high: saddle up and circle the horses gang; we’re ridin’ with Biden (c/o Glenn Greenwald).

    In addition to Obama, Bill Clinton added shortly thereafter that he feels your pain, but is also on the Biden train.
     
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    GMBigKev

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  • #2,025
    Fit&NerdyFSUgirl said:
    You are missing the point that the entire media coverage from now until the election is going to focus on Biden's age and health and how long until he is removed or steps down. Trump will get a unintentional free pass.
    Click to expand...

    They've been focusing on his age since he was president!
     
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  • #2,026
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    Papageno

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  • #2,027
    wco81 said:
    Trump supposedly claimed last week that he won CA in 2020?
    Click to expand...
    Hell, he claims it's "unpossible" that he lost the whole Presidential Election then, so why not? No doubt he's claiming he really won CA but "massive voter fraud" by "illegals voting" made it look like he lost.
     
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    Nekojin

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  • #2,028
    I wasn't able to find any sites that showed Trump claiming that he won California. But he has claimed that there was confirmation of over a million illegal votes in California, which is completely fabricated. But even if it were true, that wouldn't have changed the election. The split between Trump and Biden was more than 5 million votes (11,110,250 Biden to 6,006,429 Trump).

    www.cnn.com

    CNN's Facts First searchable database - CNN

    Search CNN’s Facts First database for fact checks related to the U.S. economy, mail-in voting, coronavirus, police reform and more.
    www.cnn.com
     
    Diabolical

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  • #2,029
    I just watched the rally in North Carolina that Biden was at yesterday.

    He’s still got something - he’s hacking a bit. And yes he’s obviously in front of a friendly crowd.

    But he was swinging hard. And the self-deprecating jokes came out a few times. And he was about as full of energy in that half hour as I’ve seen him.

    If you haven’t watched it yet? Give it a look. Youtube video of The Hill stream in the spoiler.
    I’ve timed it to just after he stepped up to the microphone.

    Edit: or not. Embed REALLY doesn’t want to take. So here is the link:
    Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/live/qDKIILMeZfk?si=EbrHnks5x-SK2Ca7&t=5395
     
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  • #2,030
    Some have dismissed that NC rally as being during the day, not late at night, and teleprompter-aided or he said a few predefined lines.

    There's been some criticism that his team has been shielding or hiding him, not doing as many campaign events, not getting out and having these rallies.

    They also noted that in 2020, he had the worst debate performances in the primaries but was fine for the GE debates vs. Trump.
     
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  • #2,031
    Ajar said:
    A better take from the Philadelphia Inquirer's editorial board than what the NYT would ever be capable of coming up with:

    www.inquirer.com

    To serve his country, Donald Trump should leave the race | Editorial Board

    Biden had a horrible night Thursday. But the debate about the debate is misplaced. The only person who should withdraw from the race is Trump.
    www.inquirer.com www.inquirer.com
    Click to expand...
    The simple fact of it is, it is pointless to talk about Trump now. Whether or not he should withdraw, that he's a convicted felon, how he wants to destroy democracy . . . whatever. Nothing can be said about Trump at this point is going to move the needle in Biden's favor, no matter how loudly or often it's repeated it.

    It's on Biden to change voters' minds, and all the calls for him to resign come from the realization that he can't. There is nothing coming down the pike that is going to make voters suddenly say: Oh shit! I need to vote for Biden! Meanwhile, between now and November, Biden will continue to have his embarrassing senior moments.

    The more I think about it, the more I believe the 25th needs to be invoked; not just to remove Biden from office to run someone more electable, but for its intended purpose. Given the volatility of the current world, it's outright dangerous for Biden to be in office now. What we saw of Biden the other night will tempt unfriendly regimes the world over to make their moves against the US. Hell, I can imagine more extreme elements in Russia seeing this as the perfect time to break out the nukes. There are decisions the executive may need to make quickly and decisively, and you won't get sure and decisive from the committee of bureaucrats who've surely been the ones calling the shots thus far.
     
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    Nekojin

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  • #2,032
    Smashing Young Man said:
    The simple fact of it is, it is pointless to talk about Trump now. Whether or not he should withdraw, that he's a convicted felon, how he wants to destroy democracy . . . whatever. Nothing can be said about Trump at this point is going to move the needle in Biden's favor, no matter how loudly or often it's repeated it.

    It's on Biden to change voters' minds, and all the calls for him to resign come from the realization that he can't. There is nothing coming down the pike that is going to make voters suddenly say: Oh shit! I need to vote for Biden! Meanwhile, between now and November, Biden will continue to have his embarrassing senior moments.
    Click to expand...
    I mean... you can make that claim, sure, but the debate, in and of itself, convinced some Hispanic voters to vote for Biden, because of how stuck Trump was to the "border crisis" narrative.

    Anything bad that Trump does costs him some voters. And when he loses them, it's likely permanent. I've been saying this for months, and new examples keep coming up. It might not be a lot of voters for each gaffe, each racist comment, each accidental admission... but it adds up.
     
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    CPX

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  • #2,033
    wco81 said:
    Some have dismissed that NC rally as being during the day, not late at night, and teleprompter-aided or he said a few predefined lines.

    There's been some criticism that his team has been shielding or hiding him, not doing as many campaign events, not getting out and having these rallies.

    They also noted that in 2020, he had the worst debate performances in the primaries but was fine for the GE debates vs. Trump.
    Click to expand...

    Start citing this stuff. The passive tense you (and others) used comes off as quite editorial at best.
     
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    Yagisama

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  • #2,034
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    Diabolical

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  • #2,035
    CPX said:
    Start citing this stuff. The passive tense you (and others) used comes off as quite editorial at best.
    Click to expand...
    Agreed.

    Which is why I decided to watch the rally myself. It’s a half hour of my time to make my own determination. And yeah, it made an impression.

    Quite a positive one, if I’m honest.
     
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