The Perpetual Running Thread: 2011 Edition!

gregatron5

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Any thoughts on why? Tried changing up hydration? Stretching? Different stretches?
I've tried to be pretty consistent. Drink a couple glasses of water and cup of coffee while waking up and getting the kids ready. Usually run in the morning after school drop-off, before eating; occasionally in the early afternoon. A bit of a mobility warmup and light stretching before heading out. Unbearable personal stress has been pretty constant.

One interesting thing. I've been running mostly in my Vibram Fivefingers. In my penultimate run, the one where my body just… stopped wanting to run, I made it about half a block and my right knee nope-d out. I went back home, switched to my old DIY huaraches from Xero Shoes (actually bought back when they were called Invisible Shoes) and my knee had no problems until my body stopped about a mile and a half later. When my calves cramped I was also in the Fivefingers. It could be the shoes, but all the running so far has been in the Vibrams and there have been no issues until now. Still, maybe I should wear my huaraches again next time. (But the shoes weren't the cause of the first "I just can't run anymore, I have to walk back" thing. That happened in the huaraches.)
 

Mat8iou

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"I just can't run anymore, I have to walk back"
I've had that a few times. Usually while increasing distance, but occasionally just on regular long runs. Normally its a sign that you have run out of energy and should be topping it up, or low on hydration. I've had it more since I moved to a hotter climate - even if I try and run a few steps, I find myself walking a few minutes later. Nearly always it is hydration in my case - I'm not used to getting through all the water I'm carrying on a relatively short run and still needing more.
 
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Mat8iou

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Interesting. I'll try to be more cognizant of my hydration levels in the future. Thanks!
The only thing that seems a bit odd with this is that the lengths of your runs were pretty short. I think whenever I have had this happen was on distances over about 20k.

I'd definitely try switching away from the vibrams for a bit too though and see if this improves things - I've never run in them and I know that some people love them. At the same time, they are pretty unforgiving shoes.
 

Cognac

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I know that when I started running a few years ago (actual running, as opposed to incidental running in other sports) it took probably a month or so for all of my joints to settle down. I just wasn't used to the constant impact over long periods of time. My knees were proper sore for a little while, but I made sure not to push too hard too quickly and just kept up with what I could actually do, and eventually the muscles developed correctly and the pain went away completely.

I agree with @Mat8iou regarding energy to continue as well. It might not be directly relate to the running though either. I had a short run the other week on my usual neighbourhood 8km route (7km run plus a walking cooldown) where I really wasn't feeling great. I went on the run because I was feeling lethargic and hadn't done enough exercise in the last week and a bit, but I got to 6km and literally couldn't take another running step. I very slowly trudged the last couple of km home. Later that evening it turned out I has a severe bout of gastro that ended up lasting a few days, so my body already hadn't been processing food correctly for about 24 hours and I tried to force it to do physical activitiy when all it was trying to do was recover. In the week immediately afterwards I was back to easily doing my usual runs, and I've got a 12km fun run coming up this weekend that I'm feeling really good for.

TL:DR - if you've got any other kind of illness (respiratory, gastrointestinal, other) that requires a lot of energy from the body for recovery that could also be the cause.
 

Cognac

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Took him on a 5k fun run once. After repeating to me over and over that "slow and steady wins the race", he started off super fast trying to overtake everyone, then when I caught up with him he paused for a second, then kept on running fast.
By 1k he was starting to tire and and my wife eventually caught up with us.
At 2k, there was some Indian drumming, which brightened his spirits.
Just after 2.5k he said that his legs were too tired and went on shoulders for a bit.
Finally at about 4.5k he got off my shoulders, then when he saw the finish line up ahead decided to sprint to the end.
Looking at the times, I'm surprised how fast his peak speed was (my Garmin was on his wrist) - He peaked at 4.49 min/km. He was age 6 at that point.
Nowadays he likes short sprints in the parks and longer walks (or I walk and he goes on his scooter). He'll get into longer runs at some point though I suspect. Occasionally I over-hear him telling other kids about my running (apparently I do a half marathon every day in his mind).
That sounds very like a 6-year old kid. Sounds like he had a good time overall though.

Little Miss Cognac will get a lot of exposure to running through my friendship group I think. It's pretty social for us, and the post-run breakfasts on Saturdays are a fun get together that she can also participate in.
 
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continuum

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I'd definitely try switching away from the vibrams for a bit too though and see if this improves things - I've never run in them and I know that some people love them. At the same time, they are pretty unforgiving shoes.
++;

And yeah, hydration sounds like something. I mean these are all cheap/free things to try, so might as well!
 

Piblokto

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FWIW, I went through a 2-3 year phase of running in minimalist-shoes or close to barefoot (think I went through 3-4 pairs of Vibrams), read and understood from others that over time it would strengthen my legs and minimize injuries, but I kept getting the calf pain/cramping and other injuries (trail runner, lots of painful impacts to toes). Eventually switched back to a variety of more conventional road and trail shoes, and got back into a more regular running routine.
 

Mat8iou

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FWIW, I went through a 2-3 year phase of running in minimalist-shoes or close to barefoot (think I went through 3-4 pairs of Vibrams), read and understood from others that over time it would strengthen my legs and minimize injuries, but I kept getting the calf pain/cramping and other injuries (trail runner, lots of painful impacts to toes). Eventually switched back to a variety of more conventional road and trail shoes, and got back into a more regular running routine.
They work better for some people than others - dependent on your running style, the type / distance of running you do, your weight etc.
It's interesting that in recent years, there has been a trend towards the most maximal shoes possible (to the extent that some are banned from competitions) and these are winning a high proportion of the big races.
 
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continuum

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Yar. Have seen swing to both minimalist (or at least low-drop/zero-drop) as well as current swing to higher stack heights, but I think reduced drop is still a thing (as opposed to the old school 10-12mm drops).

For a lot of my friends, running in fairly low drop shoes (usually 4-6mm) of varying stack heights seems to work for them rather than outright completely minimal like Vibram Fivefingers.

As far as me, currently doing a month-long fitness challenge. Have run less than expected due to scheduling issues, but have done pretty good sticking to 5+ miles of walking and/or running daily. Will see how the back half goes...
 
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Mat8iou

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As far as me, currently doing a month-long fitness challenge. Have run less than expected due to scheduling issues, but have done pretty good sticking to 5+ miles of walking and/or running daily. Will see how the back half goes...
Good luck.

I'm wary of running challenges that involve running every day as that is where I have seemed to pick up injuries.

My running at the moment isn't as far as I'd like (partly because I can't manage the early starts as I need to stay up late for work as I'm working in a different time zone), but my step count is 13k+ per day on weekdays just from taking my son too and from school and walking longer routes when my train arrives early.
After a few weeks off for a variety of reasons though, my last run was dreadful (in terms of speed and because I cut it short due to bad weather and limited time). I need to ramp up the distance again back to where I was earlier in the year - especially now the weather here has cooled down more.
 

gregatron5

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I think part of the general issue with the perception of minimalist/barefoot shoes is people think running is running. They switch from regular shoes to minimalist shoes and just keep doing what they're doing, not realizing that you most likely need to change, or at least refine, your form to accommodate different shoe geometry and under-foot support and cushioning.

I actually went through the trouble of (re)learning how to be essentially barefoot. Maybe in the years since I've done dedicated running my form has regressed to shoe-style running. I'll go dig up my training material and see if there are some form tweaks I can make, too.
 

Mat8iou

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I think part of the general issue with the perception of minimalist/barefoot shoes is people think running is running. They switch from regular shoes to minimalist shoes and just keep doing what they're doing, not realizing that you most likely need to change, or at least refine, your form to accommodate different shoe geometry and under-foot support and cushioning.

I actually went through the trouble of (re)learning how to be essentially barefoot. Maybe in the years since I've done dedicated running my form has regressed to shoe-style running. I'll go dig up my training material and see if there are some form tweaks I can make, too.
How much does altering your cadence go towards altering your running style? About 12 years ago I spent ages on the treadmill at the gym listening to fast paced music an staring at the feedback from my foot pod to my watch while I tried to increase my cadence.
At first, I had to very consciously make sure I did it when I went on other runs - soon though it became entirely natural to take more small steps rather than huge strides - and after some initial soreness from previously neglected muscles led to a speed increase too.
If I wanted to go back to the old way of running I think I'd have to spend an equal amount of effort now to get my body to unlearn it.
 

Cognac

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I'm working towards a King of The Mountain run in a few weeks. It's only 16km, but heaps of hills (as you would expect from that name). I've done it before, I'll be glad to get it under about 1:50.

But I am waaay fitter than I was the last time I did it. Ran a 5km PB yesterday morning. Edging closer to my long-term goal of a sub-20 5k. Feeling both like I'm in a good spot and that I'm on the right track (and not maxxed out yet either), which is awesome.

As a side note, I've dropped about 8kg in the last 6 months. Not intentionally, it kinda just happened (part of it was probably gastro-related, I would not recommend this as a weight loss method). I'm down to ≈82kg (I'm 186cm), and I think that drop is posting dividends in my endurance now that my training is back up to scratch. I'm just in a really good place at the moment.
 

Mat8iou

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I'm working towards a King of The Mountain run in a few weeks. It's only 16km, but heaps of hills (as you would expect from that name). I've done it before, I'll be glad to get it under about 1:50.

But I am waaay fitter than I was the last time I did it. Ran a 5km PB yesterday morning. Edging closer to my long-term goal of a sub-20 5k. Feeling both like I'm in a good spot and that I'm on the right track (and not maxxed out yet either), which is awesome.

As a side note, I've dropped about 8kg in the last 6 months. Not intentionally, it kinda just happened (part of it was probably gastro-related, I would not recommend this as a weight loss method). I'm down to ≈82kg (I'm 186cm), and I think that drop is posting dividends in my endurance now that my training is back up to scratch. I'm just in a really good place at the moment.
Good luck. I find the weight loss helps a lot with hills - I guess the calories burned to get a certain distance has reduced by a fair bit, enabling you to either go faster or further (or feel less exhausted at the end).
 

Mat8iou

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Can't decide if yesterday's run was a good run or a terrible run - or a mix of both. It just didn't go quite how I planned it.

I've been doing two things with runs and rides recently:
1. As much as possible I'm trying to go a slightly different route every time (I'm in a new city, so want to get as much of an idea as possible which are good and bad routes - and to not just settle on one or two that I happen to stumble across.
2. As well as loops, I'm doing more runs where I head out, then catch the train back. It lets me explore further afield and living in a place with a fairly good integrated public transport network, I'm yet to end a run or drop out from one due to bad weather, where I wasn't able to get home on public transport with only one change along the route. One problem with this is that weekends seem to be when there are often engineering works on the train lines - but there are still always replacement bus services if this happens.

So - yesterday's run I decided to head out to Waterfall. It's the southern end of the suburban train network (after that there are regional trains going further less frequently) and its name conjures up images of the sort of terrain around it. It's a small place on the main road, in between two different National Parks.

I tend to like running on trails, so heading to one or other of these National Parks appealed to me. I plotted out two possible routes to Waterfall a few weeks back, one through each National Park, both around the same length. I avoided this run tough in the weeks after, because each time I ran had followed multiple days of heavy rain and I didn't know how muddy paths there might be. Turns out this was a good decision.

So - I headed off, leaving the house later than planned. Total distance was going to be around 35km which is within the distance range of recent runs, although probably hillier. The first problem is that getting to somewhere like the National Park from a place in the suburbs inevitably means a fair bit of running along roads first of all - especially if trying to get a fairly direct route there. It was the first run of the year that has felt properly cold at the start. I wore arm warmers for about half of it.

One detail I should perhaps mention is that the national parks are the other side of a big river. In any other city, this would be seen as one of the key features of the place, but in Sydney, because it is less prominent than the harbour it is kind of forgotten by a lot of people. The size of that river means that there aren't many possible crossings to use - the one I took is basically a motorway, with a cycle path at the side. It is fairly direct, but not the most scenic route and the hill as you come up from the river, although seemingly gentle goes on and on. Early in this run I decided to walk the big hills, just to retain energy, as I know I'm not in the training condition from a couple of years when I could have run all of them.

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Once on the other side, mentally I was going to be in the countryside, but the reality was that suburbia resumes for quite a way and even on bits where it feels more rural, there are still houses 100m away behind a dense woodland strip. The bridge was at 9k in, but I first entered the National Park at 18k.

At first, it seemed great - I was on a steep path that looked like perhaps it was once surfaced for vehicles, but the surface had nearly all gone. It went really steeply down, taking me down the 140m I had gradually climbed over the space of 10km in a little over 1km. Above me were big sandstone crags.

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Not long after that, I was pretty much back at sea level and hist the first river crossing. A concrete ford
about 25m long stretched across the river and while it looked fairly shallow, it came up over my ankles. It hadn't rained for over a week, so it seems I made a good decision to wait for dry weather for this route, otherwise that part could have been fairly deep.

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After the downhill was a fairly steep uphill, then I crossed a ravine on a narrow metal bridge connected to a large water pipeline. It turns out that this pipeline was to haunt me for a lot of the remainder of the run. I had wanted to be on rough trails, but my route was mostly following the once surfaced trail for maintenance of the pipeline, with the pipeline continually on my left side. This isn't really what I had in mind when I went for a walk in the wilderness - this constant reminder that I wasn't that far from the city.

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Every time I thought I had left it, I found myself back alongside it a few minutes later. Looking more closely at the map afterwards, there was perhaps a clue in that the path was called the pipeline trail.

Beyond the national park is a large amount of fenced off land for a military base and I could hear the noise of firing from there. Annoyingly on some maps it is not that clearly marked as an exclusion zone and in the past I've plotted automatic routes that have tried to go across it, despite massive gates and fences when I've then checked out bits of it on streetview.

After about 10km of following the pipeline and a few more river crossings (including a really sketchy road crossing where visibility was poor in both directions), I finally saw my route fork away from it. There was even a sign to tell me I was going the right way - and that I was less than 5k from my destination. In my mind I was going to be hopping on the train in a little over 30 minutes...

After complaining that the trail run felt like it was on roads, this path (despite being a major signposted route) instantly jumped to the opposite extreme. It was steep and narrow, over and around rocks and trees. As this picture of that first part of it shows, very little of it was runnable.

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Further one, it got more rocky and there were a few points where my GPS showed I was straying quite a long way from the supposed path, which I eventually found, although there wasn't much difference between being on the path or off it. At some points I was struggling to work out if I was following a stream or if the stream had decided to follow the path and there was a lot of sticky mud and fairly tricky scrambing across big boulders.

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Eventually I passed a bush camp ground and then saw some waterfalls (possibly the ones the place was named after - nobody seems quite clear about the origin of the name).

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After that, there was a really steep path up over boulders (although with a few arrows to indicate the best direction and suddenly I was out on a suburban street. The last 4.5km had taken me nearly two hours to complete though and by now the day was getting late - this run had taken way longer than I anticipated. After an 0900 start on an empty stomach, it was 15:30 as I got to the railways station and the realisation that this town has no actual shops - just a fish restaurant with some very prominent signage.

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So I had to use the only available option for food - vending machines on the station platform and chugged a bottle of Powerade from them, before hopping on a train and then bus to get back to the house at around 16:40 for whatever meal you call combined breakfast, lunch and dinner (A massive bowl of Vietnamese pork with noodles).

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So - I kind of liked the run - but lack of training and misjudging the terrain as well as not starting early enough meant that it took way too long. I feel I need to find trails that aren't tarmac, but aren't too much scrambling and this route wasn't it. Also, I'd prefer to avoid river crossings where possible as running with soaking feet isn't ideal. I imagine in summer that the river if probably pretty much dry - but also that I'd need to be carrying a lot more water. What still amazes me is that this route is still kind of within the boundaries of the Greater Sydney area - yet this was bush land that you could easily get lost in, once you were away from the main path.

I've misjudged the timings on runs before - but never to this extent.

I still have the other route to do to Waterfall (via Royal National Park instead of Heathcote). I've been in bits of RNP before, but suspect that this edge of it may be very different as it is essentially the other side of the road from where I was on this run. I'm also wondering whether getting the train at the start might be a better option - doing the hard trail bits on fresh legs at the start and then the roads later on.

 
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Mat8iou

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Oh man. That's a long day!

We did our King of the Mountain run in Perth this morning. 16km, but nothing quite so dramatic at what you've shown here.
I guess the lesson I learned is that I probably need to check out the terrain a bit more when I am going off the roads into areas I haven't been before. Remarkably, it seems that all of the route I went on is on Street View. Whoever was carrying one of those backpack 360 cameras must have had to duck a lot for low branches. The thing is, at least I know I was on the right route - even on the street view the path is quite hard to make out at a lot of points.


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I imagine in summer when the plants start to grow fast it gets worse (although maybe there are more walkers coming through).

I'm wondering if any of that area was hit by bush fired in the last few years. I've see reports from the Blue Mountains that some of the less touristy routes there are almost impossible to find because of that. The fires wiped out a lot of the tree cover, meaning that ground cover grew back really sense. I've seen a few people indicating that 1km/hr is the max they are managing on these paths (they aren't really following the path any more, just pushing their way through undergrowth roughly where the path might be). I guess the other thing I need to think about it fallback stop points on long runs. In the city, I've often had it passing a few stations - in the countryside though it is trickier. That said, I rarely do drop out at the stations - generally, it gives an excuse to keep going as you know it is only 3km to the next station, so not worth cutting it short at that point.

What's the terrain like around Perth. My memory of it (I lived there in '93-'94, was that the city was mostly fairly flat, but that it got fairly hilly out towards the Avon Valley behind. 16km is probably a better sort of distance for a rough terrain run. Doing long distance is ok and doing technical trails is OK - its is the combo of having the crazy trails on tired legs that is tricky. Probably really I just need to get back into training more. I've been not managing early mornings because I'm working for a UK company still - so my overlap time with them stretches late into the evenings. Any time of day works now for runs, but in the summer, early mornings was really the only viable option because it got too hot later.
 

Mat8iou

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I've got a touch of lingering plantar fasciitis which is very annoying.
Nothing worse than lingering injuries - I've had ones a few times that you can be convinced have gone away, but then after a long run they re-appear either during the run or the day after. In some cases it has been quite a shock to realise eventually that they have actually gone - you don;t notice at first and then after a few weeks the realisation sets in.