STAR TREK: The Perpetual Thread

ProphetM

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If the last one is true then the writers are hacks who never be allowed to write anything ever again and may just beat Enterprise as the worst ending in all of Star Trek.

To be fair, they didn't know it was going to be the last season. They went back and reshot a little to account for that, but I'm sure they weren't given unlimited time or money to do reshoots. They undoubtedly had to make some choices they wouldn't have otherwise made for the last episode.

But it's not even possible for it to measure down to the disaster that was the Enterprise finale.
 

GaitherBill

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If the last one is true then the writers are hacks who never be allowed to write anything ever again and may just beat Enterprise as the worst ending in all of Star Trek.

The problem is, most of the writing the last couple of seasons has been hacky.

All sizzle, no steak. Consequences bandied about, but never actualized. So there’s really no point to anything, because there are no lasting repercussions to anything, they get swept under the rug.

Examples include -

Detmer “going rougue” and flying without permission.

Airiam dying.
SNW gave me all season to care deeply about Hemmer dying!

Anything about Grey.

Adira being the host of a Trill Symbiot.

Michael shoving Stamets out an airlock to “save the day”.

Book not going to prison forever.

Most of these characters are wonderful, endearing people who I want to spend time with, but the writing hangs them out to dry.

It brings up the same question over and over. Why should I care?
 

zyyn

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I think either the magical tech they’re after is going to be low on batteries and can only be used once or some all powerful entity from some other old episode is going to show up and stop it from being used at the last second. Otherwise wouldn’t it kind of ruin this timeline? The other possible outcomes are that either the federation or one of their enemies effectively becomes all powerful. Or maybe they drop it on the floor and it breaks.
 

iPilot05

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But it's not even possible for it to measure down to the disaster that was the Enterprise finale.
Man I just rewatched that finale after randomly enjoying TNG's "Pegasus". Still gets me mad to this day and I really didn't care for Enterprise.

In a way it could have been a very clever episode as long as it wasn't the finale. It was only a fitting end to Rick Berman's career running Star Trek.
 
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BigVince

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OK i didnt hate that

I'm a sucker for random continuity especially in Trek. I LOVED that they tied Kovich back to Temporal Agent Daniels first seen as Crewman Daniels on the NX-01 in ST: Enterprise. I was also pleasantly surprised with the extended farewell scenes at the end of the episode. Not too many Trek shows get to say good bye like that. The lingering mystery of leaving Disco and Zora in deep space waiting for...something? I love that too and cant wait to see that pop up in a future show or movie
 
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MaizeAndBlue

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I discovered in Memory Alpha that Discovery's Federation HQ was a starship: USS Federation (NCC-325002)

 

spiralscratch

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Overall I thought the finale was fine. As a season finale it seemed to just kinda peter out, I thought last season's was better. Glad they got the chance to tack on the additional scenes to close the series.

OK i didnt hate that

I'm a sucker for random continuity especially in Trek. I LOVED that they tied Kovich back to Temporal Agent Daniels first seen as Crewman Daniels on the NX-01 in ST: Enterprise. I was also pleasantly surprised with the extended farewell scenes at the end of the episode. Not too many Trek shows get to say good bye like that.

I keep gong back and forth on this. One part of me thinks it's kinda cool they brought him back (IIRC his fate was kinda unknown at the end of ENT?). On the other hand, was it really necessary?

At least they remembered Owosekun and Detmer were a part of the show. They just kinda disappeared early this season.



The lingering mystery of leaving Disco and Zora in deep space waiting for...something? I love that too and cant wait to see that pop up in a future show or movie

It ties up the loose thread of Calypso. Which also explains why they reverted the ship to its pre -A configuration (It was made before leap to the 32nd century). They basically threw a bone to the continuity freaks.
 

Jonathon

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That was a solid season finale, to cap off what I think was easily the strongest season of the show (in large part because the writers finally seem to have figured out both how to scope a season-wide arc and how to pace episodes... just in time for the show to be cancelled).

As a series finale... they tried. As a "close out Michael Burnham's story", I guess they did fine... I would've appreciated more closure and more of a sendoff for the rest of the cast, though (although I doubt this is the last we've seen of Tilly, and hopefully we can get at least some guest appearances in future shows to continue some of the rest of the crew's stories).

Definitely felt like a "this wasn't meant to be the end of the series" kind of series finale. At least they got the chance to do some reshoots and bring some closure; that's more than most cancelled series get.

(I'm not sure whether to appreciate the nod to "Calypso" at the end or wish they'd just left it open... feels like something they could've left for another series or a Short Trek to fill in and give it some actual stakes.)
 

GaitherBill

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A few thoughts on the finale now that I’ve slept on it.

The whole Kovich is Agent Daniels from Enterprise thing was a haphazard nod to fans, just like the highlighted artifacts in his office.

You got The Chateau Picard bottle, Geordi’s Visor, and Sisko’s Baseball. Great, cool, whoopty do. Nothing from Enterprise? Going for the cheap pop as they say in pro wrestling.

Just seems like an another thing they didn’t think through for the long term and just threw in.

So Mol just straight up believed Michael that the Progenitor tech couldn’t do a thing for La’ak? That was it? Mol was ready to kill her, then just noped out of the whole thing. Michael didn’t even relay the actual explanation of why it wouldn’t help.

They sent Discovery/Zora out to pasture after all that time for seemingly no reason other than to tie it all back to the Short Treks episode? One line of dialogue could have explained why. There was no why!

The whole ‘effin season and we got what, 5 minutes of Owo and Detmer? I am irrationally irritated by that. They need a spinoff!

Zero point in the ISS Enterprise showing up. Another cheap pop.

And another new uniform. Seems like the farther into the future they go, the uglier the uniforms get.

I’m not insulted by this episode, not like the Enterprise finale or several episodes of Voyager. It was fine.
 
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Justin Credible

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A few thoughts on the finale now that I’ve slept on it.

The whole Kovich is Agent Daniels from Enterprise thing was a haphazard nod to fans, just like the highlighted artifacts in his office.

You got The Chateau Picard bottle, Geordi’s Visor, and Sisko’s Baseball. Great, cool, whoopty do. Nothing from Enterprise? Going for the cheap pop as they say in pro wrestling.

Just seems like an another thing they didn’t think through for the long term and just threw in.

So Mol just straight up believed Michael that the Progenitor tech couldn’t do a thing for La’ak? That was it? Mol was ready to kill her, then just noped out of the whole thing. Michael didn’t even relay the actual explanation of why it wouldn’t help.

They sent Discovery/Zora out to pasture after all that time for seemingly no reason other than to tie it all back to the Short Treks episode? One line of dialogue could have explained why. There was no why!

The whole ‘effin season and we got what, 5 minutes of Owo and Detmer? I am irrationally irritated by that. They need a spinoff!

Zero point in the ISS Enterprise showing up. Another cheap pop.

And another new uniform. Seems like the farther into the future they go, the uglier the uniforms get.

I’m not insulted by this episode, not like the Enterprise finale of several episodes of Voyager. It was fine.

Thanks for that, basically how i felt as well.

But this part you mentioned...
They sent Discovery/Zora out to pasture after all that time for seemingly no reason other than to tie it all back to the Short Treks episode? One line of dialogue could have explained why. There was no why!"
A lot more could have been reveled just to leave a better cliffhanger, a "well, maybe in the future we'll bring back ST: D, maybe we won't.
 
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crombie

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I mean, it was an ending. My preference would have been:

Replace the dream sequence and future Burnham with vignettes of where people end up. And I agree if they were going to include the tie-back to Calypso at least give us some reason for them to do that instead of hiding it behind 'red directive'.
 

Justin Credible

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I mean, it was an ending. My preference would have been:

Replace the dream sequence and future Burnham with vignettes of where people end up. And I agree if they were going to include the tie-back to Calypso at least give us some reason for them to do that instead of hiding it behind 'red directive'.

I kinda thought that what was coming in what you mentioned in the first half of your spoiler, but nope had to be all about Burnham.
 

swithrow

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I thought the finale was good. It was clear that the entire last section was a secondary shoot. I think it's all right, it kind of has a "Sleeping In Light" vibe, just not so much crying. It makes me wonder what they must have cut from the season arc to make room for it within the episode's 1-hour runtime.

I'm going to miss the show, no doubt.

With that all said, let's get out into the weeds:

I literally shouted out loud when Kovich turned out to be Daniels. My wife has never seen Enterprise and thought I'd lost my mind. Nice nod. I think it was necessary to make Kovich a temporal agent to give them some running room for the Calypso tie-in.

I can accept that Kovich must know that Craft must survive and return to his homeworld for some significant reason. I can also accept that perhaps, Zora needed the additional 1,000 years to mature and grow into a being capable of interacting with Craft in a way that changes Craft's outlook or mindset before he goes home. Maybe a kinder, gentler Craft stops the implied war or something.

The only thing that doesn't really make any sense is reverting Discovery to her original configuration. Yes, I know why they had to do it. But in-universe, it seems completely unnecessary.

But I did enjoy seeing it. I actually always preferred the original look of the ship to the future-tech one.
 

krimhorn

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DISCO has definitely been the most inconsistent of the recent Trek series but I have to say that I have very few qualms with the past two seasons. While season 2 was entirely about the writers throwing their hands in the air and giving up the nerd fight over continuity (which was, IMO, the cause of most of the narrative awkwardness with that season - trying to find a way to justify getting them out of the present-day) the payoff of moving to the far future ended up being worth it.

Season 3 on felt more like a reboot of the show than a strict continuation and season 3 was, easily, the weakest of these three. Mostly because "psychic explosion" is a much less satisfying answer than a super powerful extragalactic race that's not recognizing the anthills they're knocking over. Or the idea that an ancient, super-powerful, tech is but an artifact of even more ancient civilizations than previously known which lets Star Trek return, just a bit, to the idea that there are actually great unknowable mysteries out there.

What I find interesting about DISCO is that, despite it being a very polarizing and, at times, contentious, show the writers are damn fucking great at creating characters that people want to continue seeing (and it helps that the casting department has been on the ball with most of them). It started with the excitement surrounding the Section 31 spinoff show (now movie), continued with fan cries for Pike's Enterprise to get a show and there's a bunch of people who are genuinely excited that Tilly might get to continue in Starfleet Academy (which highlights just how far her character has come from the "annoying and over-excited kid" trope she started out as). Add on that I'd love to see Callum Keith Rennie's Rayner return in the future.

DISCO might be inconsistent and polarizing but it's been a fantastic incubator for new Star Trek projects.
 

krimhorn

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I thought the finale was good. It was clear that the entire last section was a secondary shoot. I think it's all right, it kind of has a "Sleeping In Light" vibe, just not so much crying. It makes me wonder what they must have cut from the season arc to make room for it within the episode's 1-hour runtime.
This last episode was 1:25 wasn't it? I figure that they kept 99.8% of the original shoot, cut whatever minor setup for season 6 they had planned and then added in the last 15 minutes as the extra shoots they did to provide a coda and didn't bother with worrying about runtime.
 
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swithrow

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This last episode was 1:25 wasn't it? I figure that they kept 99.8% of the original shoot, cut whatever minor setup for season 6 they had planned and then added in the last 15 minutes as the extra shoots they did to provide a coda and didn't bother with worrying about runtime.

You may be right, I'll have to take another look. I just seem to recall glancing at the time during a pause and being disappointed that the episode was only roughly an hour.
 

GaitherBill

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What I find interesting about DISCO is that, despite it being a very polarizing and, at times, contentious, show the writers are damn fucking great at creating characters that people want to continue seeing (and it helps that the casting department has been on the ball with most of them). It started with the excitement surrounding the Section 31 spinoff show (now movie), continued with fan cries for Pike's Enterprise to get a show and there's a bunch of people who are genuinely excited that Tilly might get to continue in Starfleet Academy (which highlights just how far her character has come from the "annoying and over-excited kid" trope she started out as). Add on that I'd love to see Callum Keith Rennie's Rayner return in the future.

Yes, every character except for Book and Burham.

And I could take it or leave it with more Tilly.

And I would wholeheartedly disagree at the Disco writers being "damn fucking great" at anything other than leaving story threads on the floor of the writers room.
 

nquinnell

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At least they remembered Owosekun and Detmer were a part of the show. They just kinda disappeared early this season.
.[/ISPOILER]
That was real-world stuff. Two different podcasts have said that the actors had prior commitments, and couldn't be back for filming. The doctor was previous films, because wilson cruz was unavailable.
 

MaizeAndBlue

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DISCO has definitely been the most inconsistent of the recent Trek series but I have to say that I have very few qualms with the past two seasons. While season 2 was entirely about the writers throwing their hands in the air and giving up the nerd fight over continuity (which was, IMO, the cause of most of the narrative awkwardness with that season - trying to find a way to justify getting them out of the present-day) the payoff of moving to the far future ended up being worth it.

Season 3 on felt more like a reboot of the show than a strict continuation and season 3 was, easily, the weakest of these three. Mostly because "psychic explosion" is a much less satisfying answer than a super powerful extragalactic race that's not recognizing the anthills they're knocking over. Or the idea that an ancient, super-powerful, tech is but an artifact of even more ancient civilizations than previously known which lets Star Trek return, just a bit, to the idea that there are actually great unknowable mysteries out there.

What I find interesting about DISCO is that, despite it being a very polarizing and, at times, contentious, show the writers are damn fucking great at creating characters that people want to continue seeing (and it helps that the casting department has been on the ball with most of them). It started with the excitement surrounding the Section 31 spinoff show (now movie), continued with fan cries for Pike's Enterprise to get a show and there's a bunch of people who are genuinely excited that Tilly might get to continue in Starfleet Academy (which highlights just how far her character has come from the "annoying and over-excited kid" trope she started out as). Add on that I'd love to see Callum Keith Rennie's Rayner return in the future.

DISCO might be inconsistent and polarizing but it's been a fantastic incubator for new Star Trek projects.

DISCO had a lot of behind the scenes turmoil, with several producers and showrunners being fired along the way, starting with Bryan Fuller. Plus they endured the pandemic changes to production. The writers' and actors' strikes last year didn't help either, though the episodes had been filmed by then.
 

ProphetM

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That was real-world stuff. Two different podcasts have said that the actors had prior commitments, and couldn't be back for filming.
Which is terribly unfortunate, as they weren't expecting this to be the last season so I'm sure they would have been back again for a season 6. I'm glad they were in that reunion scene at the end, but very disappointed they weren't digitally dropped in to the wedding, like Culber was dropped in to the reunion scene.
 
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nquinnell

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And I must say... I'm tired of the "This technology is too advanced for our primitive culture!" storyline.

Like, OK, you don't have to take the "create and resurrect life" skill tree. But maybe you could take the "Heal alien viruses" or "gentler terraforming" or "Transwarp Conduit Stability 101", or "Hey here's some cool math!" skill trees?

"It will come back when we're ready!". Ugh. just... Ugh.
 
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iPilot05

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DISCO might be inconsistent and polarizing but it's been a fantastic incubator for new Star Trek projects.
If nothing else I think Discovery helped Star Trek transition from syndicated broadcast format to streaming. Do they make it a big action thriller like the movies? Dark and gritty? How do you build characters during a season-long crisis?

I haven't seen the last season (holding my P+ money until Lower Decks returns then I'll binge it) but glad they seemed to pull it together a bit. I'm thankful the missteps during the early seasons of Discovery and Picard gave us great stuff later (Lower Decks, Strange New Worlds and Picard S3). Hopefully they're figuring the formula out and the drama with Paramount selling itself is over soon. Trek really has suffered under bad caretakers for quite some time so it would be great if the right management comes along and realizes Trek's potential.
 
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CPX

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I'm only going to be so hard on Disco when it's literally the streaming formula applied to Star Trek. The most prevalent streaming formula, the full seasonal arc, seems less than ideally matched to Star Trek. I can't imagine how the writing team was trying to deal with the realities of the streaming model. It's easy for us to judge but remember that the WGA part of the strikes had a specific complaint about the way streaming series managed their writers' rooms. Disco needed room to breath that the streaming formula does not afford any series, IMHO.
 

iPilot05

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I'm only going to be so hard on Disco when it's literally the streaming formula applied to Star Trek. The most prevalent streaming formula, the full seasonal arc, seems less than ideally matched to Star Trek. I can't imagine how the writing team was trying to deal with the realities of the streaming model. It's easy for us to judge but remember that the WGA part of the strikes had a specific complaint about the way streaming series managed their writers' rooms. Disco needed room to breath that the streaming formula does not afford any series, IMHO.
Yeah but SNW and Lower Decks seemed to manage being successful in the streaming world just fine. It took a bit of column A (long-form) and a bit of column B (classic episodic) storytelling techniques. It is possible to have season or even series long arcs with little breaks here and there to focus on characters and low-stakes plot lines.
 

whoisit

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Yeah but SNW and Lower Decks seemed to manage being successful in the streaming world just fine. It took a bit of column A (long-form) and a bit of column B (classic episodic) storytelling techniques. It is possible to have season or even series long arcs with little breaks here and there to focus on characters and low-stakes plot lines.

The Babylon 5 technique.
 

CPX

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Yeah but SNW and Lower Decks seemed to manage being successful in the streaming world just fine. It took a bit of column A (long-form) and a bit of column B (classic episodic) storytelling techniques. It is possible to have season or even series long arcs with little breaks here and there to focus on characters and low-stakes plot lines.

LD had the major advantage of animation taking a lot of production pain out of the equation. I don't think Paramount ever treated it seriously nor the actual LD staff so I think their Orville-esque blend of irreverence and tribute never faced serious scrutiny despite its fairly heavyweight storytelling for what it is.

SNW is straight up the lessons learned from Disco. Saying SNW "got it right" seems to ignore the fact that SNW can't exist without Disco.

I'm not saying Disco shouldn't be judged on its many flaws, just that we should consider a lens of some greater understanding of the risks it tried taking to shake up/reinvigorate Trek as a franchise.

The Babylon 5 technique.
Good as SNW is, it's nowhere near B5 for blending long arcs against individual stories. I don't think any series in the streaming era manages what B5 did.
 

Scifigod

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I started tuning out in the last half hour or so of the finale. After the fist fight inside the cube space I just sat back with a hearty meh and waited for it to be over.
At least there was some good Saru moments.

In the end I think disco is more a failure of it's potential than anything. The behind the scenes turmoil of the writers and producers was a huge anchor that it just couldn't get over. Even after the mostly good season 4 it couldn't follow that up into the next season.

Oh well on to waiting for the next seasons of SNW, lower decks, and (eventually) prodigy.
 
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