Anyone doing watercooling these days?

steelghost

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Or is it more nuanced, like "yes for simple things like a radiator, no for a pump".
I kinda glossed over t his in my previous reply. To expand slightly:

The process of making radiators involved a fair amount of soldering, cutting holes / threads, and lastly painting.

The end product is therefore likely to have bits of swarf, flux residue and whatever else inside. You can also have secondary issues like the threads being gummed with paint, the holes being slightly misspaced for the fans, etc. There's also design considerations, like does the rad have a bleed port, or plates to stop you puncturing the lamellae with over-long machine screws.

I used a diluted solution of brick acid (used for removing mortar stains) in hot tap water to flush out the rads in my current build, mainly because I had it to hand and it's a cheap source of hydrochloric acid. I followed that with hot tap water, then DI water, before draining and filling with a clear coolant pre-mix. Almost nothing came out to be honest, but I wanted to be sure. Nearly five years on, no problems to report. It might have been moot because they are HWL rads and they have a decent rep for being pretty clean, since they are made well and apparently get a flush during factory production. But you can see how that sort of thing would be the first to go if you were looking to bring down production costs.

Likewise with the fan holes, if they're a mm or two out it's not catastrophic, you might have to finagle the fans on there and be sure to only tighten the screws down when all the threads are attached. So for something relatively simple like a rad, as long as it doesn't leak, you can usually work around any issues. Even if it did leak you can often repair the leak with solder, if it's a copper rad.

For pumps, I tend to stick with the Laing D5. It's almost certainly overkill for most loops but you can get a Vario version, set it to speed #2 (out of 5) and forget about it. There's lots of other DC pumps out there, and some of them are probably fine, but it's so hit and miss I wouldn't bother. The D5's weakness is being run dry, so while I have had decent luck with second hand D5s on eBay, if there's any wear on the ceramic bearing face then run a mile. If they don't show pictures of it, ask for them. I mention it because the D5 is a pricey thing to buy new and assuming it's not been maltreated, a second hand one will still most likely have years of life in it. I managed to pick up a decent one for £25 for the loop in my boys' PC, they go for £75 or more new in the UK.

CPU blocks are also a decent shout if you can find one that fits your socket. They are usually pretty easy to disassemble (and clean if needed). Both my systems are running second hand blocks. You can also get very cheap CPU blocks on Amazon and AliExpress and while they probably won't perform quite as well as the best "branded" blocks, they will be very nearly as good, you just need to check the gasket is properly installed etc, since again the QC on these things is going to be minimal.

Your GPU block will likely be the most expensive single item in the whole damn loop, due to the semi-custom nature of these things and the amount of copper and machining involved. But if you're doing a custom loop and not cooling your GPU, then you're wasting your time and money really. My 1080Ti I bought second hand when the 2XXX series had just been announced, and it already had an EKWB block fitted by the original purchaser. The 3080Ti in my main rig has a Watercool.de block which I fitted myself, a buttock-clenching experience if ever there was one. You can get GPUs that are already fitted with a block but the premium for this is often ludicrous. The benefit is that it's pretty much plug and play, and you don't have any concerns about the block not fitting. Not every GPU out there will automatically get a block that will fit it, so you have to be a bit careful when choosing, double check compatibility charts, etc. I bought a Zotac card because it was cheap and had been confirmed by Watercool to fit one of their generic 3080Ti blocks. The cooler was known to be noisy and the power stages weren't the absolute best, but because I knew I would be removing the air cooler and cooling the MOSFETs with water, it didn't matter.
 

Arbelac

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Build update: I've started putting some of the components together. One minor inconvenience/fitting issue: The Lian Li O11D Evo, has these nice fan brackets, however the Watercool Heatkiller rads come with M3 screws with absolutely tiny heads. I'll need to pick up either new screws or some washers.

Also, the long screws don't quite reach with the fan bracket, noctua anti-vibration pads + gasket, to the radiator. So I've just swapped them to the other side.
 
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Arbelac

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For future reference; the O11D Evo does not come with a pump mount, and the D5 Ultilitube doesn't include the 120mm bracket either. A learning experience...

I did get all the rads mounted solidly however, some M4 washers did the trick. Just need the mainboard to arrive then I can mount that and get most of the plumbing installed while I wait for the bracket.
 

Arbelac

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As my wife commented, 'Warp Core online'.

WC Component List:
Heatkiller AM4/5 CPU Block
Heatkiller 360-L Radiators
ZMT 16/10 tubing (had enough from the last build)
Alphacool Core (not Eisblock) for Zotac 4090
Noctua A12x25 fans, chromax because brown looks like barf.
EK fittings, plus the EK Quantum Torque drain valve
Aquacomputer D5 Next pump w/ Ultitube 150

Stuffed all in a Lian Li O11D Evo.


fansOnBottomBracket.jpg


The fan brackets in the Evo make putting the fans and heatsinks in a breeze. Really good design here.

The Heatkiller rads, as I noted above, have excessively tiny screws, and the heads don't cover the screw slots sufficiently. Some washers do wonders:

HeatsinkWithWashers.jpg


Beyond that, the mainboard assembly and installation of the regular components was pretty easy. The Evo is a nice case, which is should be for the price:

HeatKillerCPUBlock.jpg

The Corsair Shift PSU I used makes cabling really easy. Smaller connectors, and the vertical alignment rather than the typical forward alignment make the cabling cleaner:

CorsairShiftInstalled.jpg

Here's a partially piped shot, as I was waiting for some parts still:

PartiallyPiped.jpg

Now for the complaints about the Aquacomputer stuff....

While I did get everything assembled, there are a lot of annoyances with the D5 Next. The product is working fine, but some things to note:
  • The SATA connector is recessed so much, and aligned in reverse. If your PSU doesn't have a straight SATA connector, you won't be able to plug in power, and will need to order extensions.
  • The fact that the product doesn't come with a 120mm mounting bracket is just petty. They sell them, but to not include it is just ridiculous.
  • The mounting system. Ugh. Overengineered and underexplained. It does work, but it's annoying as fuck, and the manuals have no pictures in the instructions. The product photo is more informative than the rest of the goddamn booklet.
  • I didn't take a close up shot of the pump mount because I was so tired and frustrated from taking it apart 4 times.
  • The coolant flow rate is a virtual sensor, that requires calibration, and only works with their coolant (programmed for a certain viscosity)
  • The only good thing I have to say about it is that the pump is quiet, it does work, and the mounting system does seem to dampen vibrations (there are some isolation screws with rubber)
I wouldn't recommend paying the extra for this next time. Better off with a standard D5 pump from another vendor and just get the Next Flow if you want coolant temp/flow readings.


Here's the assembled system with a leak test:
LeakTestInProgress.jpg


Here's a shot of it mid-breathing effect, mounted under my desk:
MountedFinal.jpg

Ended up weighing about 17.5KG all done.
 

steelghost

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Very nice build! Presumably that's x2 360 radiators? Any temp readings to share?

I have a Heatkiller block on my 3080Ti and it's an absolute work of art, although it's in a case with no windows that sits to the left of my chair, so it's more in a "I know it's there" sort of way :D

Do you have any pictures of the main chamber lit up? (I don't mean by the RGB, I'm just interested in the overall layout etc)
 

Arbelac

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I did want to get a FE with the Heatkiller V block, but grabbing one turned out to be an exercise in frustration. I'd probably still be waiting, so I settled for the Zotac at the same price.

I just snapped a couple photos with a flashlight for visibility. Here's the front routing. At the bottom you can see the T-fitting I used with the EK torque drain valve. Nice and clean, at the low point, and there's enough flex in the tube to lift it out of the case a touch. It sits nicely wedged by the thumbscrew for the bottom fan bracket:

FrontRouting.jpg

Here's a shot from the side:

SideRouting.jpg


Loop order is pretty standard, goes:
Pump/Res -> T fitting -> Side rad -> Out to GPU -> To CPU -> To Upper Rad -> Return to Pump/Res.



Right now coolant temp reported by the pump is running about 4-5C above ambient. Under load last night, it was 37C while the air temp was about 28C... so not bad at all. And it's dead silent, even with 9 fans :D
 

sakete

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@Arbelac Yes, I can concur on the Aquacomputer stuff. Really great gear, but mounting it is a PITA. I have the D5 Next + Ultitube (just like you do), as well as a separate D5 with one of their mounts (and an Aquaero 6LT + OCTO, which I basically stuck behind the motherboard tray with doublesided tape). None of their stuff follows standard mounting specs common in most cases, so you sometimes need to hack things together a bit, or mount it at odd angles.

But once it works, along with Aquasuite, it really is top of the line stuff otherwise. Everything in my case that's a sensor, reservoir, pump or controller is all Aquacomputer.
 

steelghost

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I have one of their Aqualis reservoirs; machined Delrin top and bottom, silicate glass body, proper EPDM O-rings to seal it and a stainless steel centre post to tighten it all down. Oh, and the inside of the glass is treated so the water always beads up and runs down, always looks super clean (which is very important in a closed case with no window :LOL:)
An absolute work of art really, but as has been said, far too hard to mount properly. I ended up using a couple of Alphacool reservoir mounts and genning up my own mechanism with the side panel of the Define S, which happily is well suited for this sort of thing.

Pics from my old build thread:
nHnfwbM.jpg

Reservoir mounting Two Alphacool 50mm dia perspex mounting brackets screwed to the back side of the case, plus the supplied stainless bracket attached via M4 bolts

50V4vBN.jpg

Reservoir mounting detail - M4 nuts replaced with black nylon thumbscrews for easier removal should it be necessary
 

steelghost

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Old school spring clamps! Nice!

I went fancy with the EK STC ones, but the spring clamps work too.
They have the advantage of it being impossible for them to work loose due to thermal expansion cycles, as well as being much cheaper than the purpose made ones from Bitspower, EK, etc. I built my loop with the mindset of trying to achieve a "custom AIO" ie something that would just run and run with minimal maintenance, have a v. low chance of leaking, etc.

I achieved what what I was going for, but for most my approach loses out big time on aesthetics!

Edit: I used them with something very close to these with a trace of silicone grease on the O-ring, which meant you could tighten the barb down fairly hard without fear of the seal snagging and getting damaged. I have never seen any of these joints ever leak so much as a drop. The trickest part to avoid leaks always seems to be sealing up around the D5, whether it's a pump top or a pump / res combo unit.
 
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teubbist

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MO-RA3 420 PRO White, Stainless Steel Classic grills, Aquacomputer ULTITUBE D5 200, Corsair Commander Pro, push/pull Arctic P14 fans, minus the one the Commander Pro is sitting in.

Commander Pro positioning, with the PWM folllowers to give me proper DC control(I got the 3 pin P14's at a massive discount vs the PWM versions):



Closer look at the ComPro. It's wired up to control all 17 fans as groups of 3,3,3,3,3,2, RPM based on outlet water temperature. Additional sensors were also installed for inlet water and in/out air temperature:



Side angle of the meet-me box for USB and power, with temporary couplers while I was testing. It's a small project box, with holes cut for a panel mount GX16-4(3, 5 and 12V, broken out to molex for the pump and full SATA for the ComPro, keystone USB to screw terminals hooked to a "reverse" connector and a top hole hidden under the pump for wires:



And the "completed" build with everything closed up and filters in place. Some tubing will be reworked and it needs a polish.

Front:



Back:



And a side view showing the box mounted, with obligatory "camera person partially caught in shiny metal reflections":



On the build itself:

  • the original intent had been to put the filters inside the MO-RA3 grills and magnetically mount them, but there is zero space with the standard height grill. I actually knew this and had a note to order the "high version" intended for 38mm fans but forgot by the time I ordered everything
  • pump is mounted using the Heatkiller Tube adapter with some extra holes drilled in
  • the pump vibrations are transmitted very effectively despite the overall mass, I will need to decouple the feet as it's mildly noisy with the delrin feet on a hard surface
  • longterm I want to either source some 140x420 filters or get a full 420x420 frame made
  • expected peak heatload will be ~850W(13900K at ~350W, 4090 at ~500W, 2x D5 pumps) which it seems fine with from initial testing. I'm still playing with the 13900K, it'll be delidded and direct die'd eventually with either LM or Kryo Sheet depending on if the latter lives up to the claims

Overall pretty happy. It looks far nicer than my old Phobya external rad and should provide a decent dissipation upgrade.
 

steelghost

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This is all kinds of awesome, thanks for sharing. I'd be interested in some numbers on the air in / out temperatures, fluid temps (probably very close to ambient!) and fan speeds when you've got it settled in :)

BTW I might be teaching you to suck eggs here, but I can recommend sorbothane for the vibration absorption; it's not cheap, but it's very effective.
 

teubbist

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Doubt I'll need anything that drastic, some testing with generic 3mm dense foam pads has mostly done the trick for transmitted vibrations. There's still some resonance, but I suspect it's from the pump mount bracket itself as there is an airgap/chamber between it and the rad for some high frequency noise to rattle around in.

And sure, I'll post some data when I've gotten things a little more tuned.
 
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mnpctech

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I've been going through mnpctech's collection of older PC hardware spares and making Sleepers. The idea behind this one is pristine exterior while system looks like it was dredged from a ship wreckage. I don't really need it, but it was fun to build.

Intel i5 4.1 GHz 10600k
Z590 gigabyte Aorus ultra ITX motherboard
GTX 980 with EK waterblock
1x 240GB SSD
16GB DDR4
240mm radiator with drain
Stainless steel tubing
Alphacool D5 pump

Fz85ZMNX0AEAqr7.jpg
 
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Arbelac

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MO-RA3 420 PRO White, Stainless Steel Classic grills, Aquacomputer ULTITUBE D5 200, Corsair Commander Pro, push/pull Arctic P14 fans, minus the one the Commander Pro is sitting in.

Commander Pro positioning, with the PWM folllowers to give me proper DC control(I got the 3 pin P14's at a massive discount vs the PWM versions):



Closer look at the ComPro. It's wired up to control all 17 fans as groups of 3,3,3,3,3,2, RPM based on outlet water temperature. Additional sensors were also installed for inlet water and in/out air temperature:



Side angle of the meet-me box for USB and power, with temporary couplers while I was testing. It's a small project box, with holes cut for a panel mount GX16-4(3, 5 and 12V, broken out to molex for the pump and full SATA for the ComPro, keystone USB to screw terminals hooked to a "reverse" connector and a top hole hidden under the pump for wires:



And the "completed" build with everything closed up and filters in place. Some tubing will be reworked and it needs a polish.

Front:



Back:



And a side view showing the box mounted, with obligatory "camera person partially caught in shiny metal reflections":



On the build itself:

  • the original intent had been to put the filters inside the MO-RA3 grills and magnetically mount them, but there is zero space with the standard height grill. I actually knew this and had a note to order the "high version" intended for 38mm fans but forgot by the time I ordered everything
  • pump is mounted using the Heatkiller Tube adapter with some extra holes drilled in
  • the pump vibrations are transmitted very effectively despite the overall mass, I will need to decouple the feet as it's mildly noisy with the delrin feet on a hard surface
  • longterm I want to either source some 140x420 filters or get a full 420x420 frame made
  • expected peak heatload will be ~850W(13900K at ~350W, 4090 at ~500W, 2x D5 pumps) which it seems fine with from initial testing. I'm still playing with the 13900K, it'll be delidded and direct die'd eventually with either LM or Kryo Sheet depending on if the latter lives up to the claims

Overall pretty happy. It looks far nicer than my old Phobya external rad and should provide a decent dissipation upgrade.

Hell of a build.

Looks like you have an opaque/pastel fluid in there? Be careful that it doesn't clog or kill anything.
 

MTSkibum

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I going with a build using the H5 case, 7700x processor, and i went with an MSI Mag core liquid P240 as hopefully a top mounted unit.

Hopefully, I can figure out how to put it together. I have built quite a few computers, but none in the last 15 years and never a liquid cooled.


How reliable are these things long term?



Edit, went with a Noctua air cooler instead. Not sure what the correct decision is here.
 
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Jeff3F

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Lights can temporarily dim when PC is fired up ha ha ha.

I'm beginning to get the build urge. My prior build is around 6 years old at this point and it is still wonderful. Quiet, distilled water coolant (with biocide), minimal maintenance needed. I recently topped off the coolant, and I love telling folks that I'm a computer nerd, so I needed to put water into my computer.

Although at the time I had intended to replace my cheapy 21:9 1080 monitor, I never did and this proved to be the key to the system's longevity - not too many pixels to push and the GTX1080 still performs like a champ and silently at that.

I think I'll probably look at a new case because while the current build was fine with only one radiator, I'd probably like at least two (current build is in a Fractal Design Nano-S). I could accomodate a bigger case, and I had to do an awful lot of sweating to get everything into the case. Tubing, figuring out whether my radiator of choice could be shoehorned in (Koolance 2x140mm). 280mm seems so quaint now ha ha.
 
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malor

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I think I'll probably look at a new case because while the current build was fine with only one radiator,

With the hugely increased power and cooling demands of current-gen chips, big cases are making a lot of sense. They give you room for things like 360mm AIOs and 140mm or even 200mm fans, which are quieter.

IMO, cooling has become the central design criterion for building a new system, and larger cases mean quieter airflow in much greater quantity.
 
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continuum

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Well, cooling most certainly sounds like it would be one of @Jeff3F ’s central design criteria for sure!

To flesh this out a bit more… I do have to say cooling will probably be an enhanced focus in my next system upgrade as well. After fighting memory issues for something like 9 months in one of my 5950X boxes, I was very glad the system in question used a 360mm AIO as the memory slots were so much easier to get to than the NH-D15S box…
 

steelghost

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Lights can temporarily dim when PC is fired up ha ha ha.

I'm beginning to get the build urge. My prior build is around 6 years old at this point and it is still wonderful. Quiet, distilled water coolant (with biocide), minimal maintenance needed. I recently topped off the coolant, and I love telling folks that I'm a computer nerd, so I needed to put water into my computer.

Although at the time I had intended to replace my cheapy 21:9 1080 monitor, I never did and this proved to be the key to the system's longevity - not too many pixels to push and the GTX1080 still performs like a champ and silently at that.

I think I'll probably look at a new case because while the current build was fine with only one radiator, I'd probably like at least two (current build is in a Fractal Design Nano-S). I could accomodate a bigger case, and I had to do an awful lot of sweating to get everything into the case. Tubing, figuring out whether my radiator of choice could be shoehorned in (Koolance 2x140mm). 280mm seems so quaint now ha ha.
The Nano S is a fantastic little case but I agree with malor that modern parts tend to be that much thirstier. If you want the new system to be as quiet as the current one, you probably will need to up the cooling surface area.

So definitely worth starting with components and power budget first, then you can decide how much radiator area you need and hence how big a case you want to house them. It's worth bearing in mind is that radiators vary in other ways than just how many 120 or 140mm fans they can take. Thickness and fin density both help radiators scale their cooling with increased airflow, which is sometimes a better way to do it than just going to the next size up. Your average 30mm thick, 9fpi doesn't really scale beyond around 1000rpm. Thicker and / or denser rads can benefit from higher fan speeds, but also from push / pull fan configs that can scale cooling without dramatically increasing noise.

That's why my boys' gaming box (8700k with a bit of an o/c, 1080Ti) only has a single 280mm radiator, but a 45mm thick one with push pull fans. When I tested it after building, it remains pretty darn quiet (~700rpm) even at full power (Unigine Valley + Prime95), which is a little over 350W for the whole system. The coil whine from the GPU is louder than the fans under normal gaming use. I could only get away with a design like this because the Define S it's built in has such a lot of space at the front of the case.

My main system (5900X, 3080Ti) has a peak load of about 500W, and that's about at the upper limit for the 360 and 280 combo in that build, while maintaining a benign noise profile under heavy load.

Of course you can also just pick out a nice roomy case, slap a couple of 360 or 420 rads in there and call it good :biggreen:
 

steelghost

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Hehe, of course if you installed a system that actually needed that much cooling, you'd have the secondary problem of stopping the room it was in from becoming waaay too warm. Such a system would probably need a dedicated electrical supply as well, especially in a 120V country. It's bad enough if I just do a spot of gaming in my box room office :oops:

That's 36 fans if you're trying :)

With that much radiator area I suspect most "normal" systems (ie desktop class CPUs, "only" a single GPU) could run passive or with barely turning fans.
 

Jeff3F

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I have a similar (not overclocked) system as your kids system @steelghost . I’m glad I only used the one 280 rad, which I got partly due to being a relatively dense fin count without too much thickness and I was really working to get it into the case (if you’ll recall @Black Jacque was egging me on that it would never fit). I didn’t need a dremel, but it was a close thing. I’d like to avoid that with the next build, and since the box sits on the floor next to desk I have lots of room for both more width and height. And the consensus is different now, that one needs lots more radiator in 2024 than in 2017.

When I built, 200mm fans were just beginning to appear, most rads used 120 mm fans as well. I think I’d favor 2 radiators or 3 if I needed to, with slow fans. In my current system the noisiest part is the pump and I could probably slow that down but haven’t bothered (it runs around 50% speed).

I don’t think I want to do AIO, as easy as it might be, because for me the action is the loop…it feels a lot like how building a model train set feels to me. Water goes around and around the loop, stopping for a bit in the station (reservoir).

When I begin to seriously plan, I will begin a thread. Thanks folks, for helping keep the Ars custom loop flame afire, yet cool. :cool: