Horizon: Forbidden West

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NervousEnergy

NervousEnergy

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  • #321
    CPX said:
    One errant arrow or robot encounter and Earth is officially done.
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    The arrows/robots don't constantly bug me for some reason - after all, she's very good at it, and can avoid conflict when she wants. The parts that always had me trying to suspend disbelief for that reason was her insane dancing with death every time she wanted to free-climb something. "Ooops I missed a low-percentage jump handhold... guess all of humanity is dooooomed..."

    This is narratively alleviated somewhat with the hang glider, but narratively trying to play Prince of Persia with crumbling, rusty infrastructure was far, far more dangerous than ambushing machines she knew everything about.
     
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    CPX

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  • #322
    NervousEnergy said:
    The arrows/robots don't constantly bug me for some reason - after all, she's very good at it, and can avoid conflict when she wants. The parts that always had me trying to suspend disbelief for that reason was her insane dancing with death every time she wanted to free-climb something. "Ooops I missed a low-percentage jump handhold... guess all of humanity is dooooomed..."

    This is narratively alleviated somewhat with the hang glider, but narratively trying to play Prince of Persia with crumbling, rusty infrastructure was far, far more dangerous than ambushing machines she knew everything about.
    Click to expand...

    Honestly, it's any of the hazards she faces be it movement, environment, robots, or other humans. She and everyone she knows understands the stakes. Another opportunity they had by telling the game through other characters is to show her frustration at being forced to stay behind.

    One of the best episodes of DS9 involved Captain Sisko having to remain on a starbase to serve as a staff officer instead of commanding the ship he designed in combat. Now give that frustration to Aloy for the first half of the game while the player has to switch out between the allies both from HZD and new to HFW. Let the player possibly experience that same frustration not playing the person they are used to (and concurrently providing consistent ludo narrative of not playing a protagonist ability reset). Then the player can feel the reward getting to take the role of Aloy again when they have a new option. Aloy can have a skill reduction from atrophy without needing a full reset because different game.
     
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    Artichoke Sap

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  • #324
    Gandhim3 said:
    I think that’s a great idea for it to be consistent with the narrative. But no way Sony takes such a risk with a multimillion development cost big budget game. I can already see the YouTube influencer complaints being spun up.
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    Yeah, that takes some Kojima-sized chutzpah to have you not play as the hero of the first game, and prominently on the box.
     
    CPX

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  • #325
    Artichoke Sap said:
    Yeah, that takes some Kojima-sized chutzpah to have you not play as the hero of the first game, and prominently on the box.
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    Well for starters, what box? :eng101:

    But in seriousness, don't feature just Aloy in the publicity art and don't bait-and-switch the audience. The fuckup with MGS2 was Kojima trolling the audience with a whole hour before switching protagonists to the new guy while never switching back.

    You can change up the formula as long as you're honest with the audience.
     
    Xavin

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  • #326
    CPX said:
    You can change up the formula as long as you're honest with the audience.
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    Depends. At this point I think more people would be upset at not playing as Aloy than would be delighted by them trying to get artistic with the game mechanics. Generally, it hasn't really worked out when games have added in new playable characters in franchises that were previously single character games. Even in games where it's done well, like Spider-man 2, it's annoying as shit to be forced to switch to one or the other just because the narrative wants it that way.

    It's the same way with books and TV shows, a lot of them get bogged down in way too many viewpoint characters showing up when you really only care about a different one. Sometimes it can work, but it's a very risky narrative choice. It's more pronounced in games because you aren't a bystander, you are actually controlling that character.

    I don't think there's any danger of ever not playing as Aloy in a mainline Horizon game though, they seem smart enough to not mess that up.
     
    NervousEnergy

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  • #327
    Finished HFW last night and started on BS. Very, very nice game overall - I spent over 90 hours with it, so it's definitely worth the effort and price. The final boss fight did really show the limitation of the format, though. Wouldn't want to play that scene again. Repetitive and annoying.

    The one thing that really popped up in my mind as the credits rolled? Why can't I salvage that huge battlefield of destroyed machines!
     
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    NervousEnergy

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  • #329
    Finished the Burning Shores. Didn't even reveal half the map... I'm surprised there wasn't more mission content, but it is DLC. What we had was really well done. Once again it shows how they really don't know how to do boss fights, though. The 'arena' battle against the arms was... repetitive and very annoying.

    It would have been neat to have had one truly sympathetic Zenith character. Though it does show the 'lotus eater' trope that kind of situation would always likely devolve into.

    Now to wait till at least 2026, and possibly 2027 to finish the story. There are many minor things left undone with this one - no interest in melee pits or ruins puzzles. I hardly ever do that kind of content, though. Too many other games in the queue.

    Last thing I did before uninstall was visit the Lance R Memorial, and paid my virtual respects. RIP Charon - nobody dressed better than you.
     
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    Backstop

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  • #330
    Story-wise my biggest gripe was the dynamic between Aloy and the new party member Beta. By the time you're having conversations with Beta, Aloy's "I have no friends" frost has thawed a little bit. She should have clocked how Beta feels being used as a tool of the Zeniths. Aloy herself is the same; she's a tool but for Gaia. She should have picked up from Varl that she needs to use a softer touch than "OK just shut up about you and give hacks!"

    I forgive a lot of the disparity between "we only have a few months to save the world" and "let me go fetch the seafood tray lid", I mean it's a game. Geralt is the baddest Witcher to live but in the first area of game 3 he struggles with a single frog monster. In every Zelda game you start with e pointy stick and three hearts. Spiral staircases have a chest in the spandrel, waterfalls hide secret doors. It's just how games are.
     
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    CPX

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  • #331
    Backstop said:
    I forgive a lot of the disparity between "we only have a few months to save the world" and "let me go fetch the seafood tray lid", I mean it's a game. Geralt is the baddest Witcher to live but in the first area of game 3 he struggles with a single frog monster. In every Zelda game you start with e pointy stick and three hearts. Spiral staircases have a chest in the spandrel, waterfalls hide secret doors. It's just how games are.
    Click to expand...

    Yeah, but there's ways to narratively accomplish this. Zelda generally accomplishes this because most Links are fully different characters. The few Links that play sequels generally get some explanation for their massive loss of power, such as Ocarina/Mask Link relegated to child form with questionable timeline fuckery and the thorough grousing when sent to Termina for the first time. Metroid games usually have some critical suit failure early on (though Fusion's was probably the most sensical with the X infection). Mass Effect doesn't state it, but the whole "revival from death" in 2 and "years in detention" for 3 can effectively handwave the issue.

    One aspect where The Witcher show actually makes more sense...every monster gives Geralt trouble, some more than others. But it's a life-or-death every time.
     
    Sulphur

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  • #333
    Backstop said:
    Story-wise my biggest gripe was the dynamic between Aloy and the new party member Beta. By the time you're having conversations with Beta, Aloy's "I have no friends" frost has thawed a little bit. She should have clocked how Beta feels being used as a tool of the Zeniths. Aloy herself is the same; she's a tool but for Gaia. She should have picked up from Varl that she needs to use a softer touch than "OK just shut up about you and give hacks!"
    Click to expand...
    The devs say the reason they did that is because Aloy recognises her own weaknesses in Beta, so she's extra hard on her. Which is a good direction, but the execution of it just makes her seem pissed that she's not getting what she wants, and the rest of the game never makes that connection anywhere else, so it's just poorly done. Also the ham-fisted 'I had a father and you didn't, that's why we're different' scene is again born of good intentions, but it's so much handwaving of trauma and skipping past developing a trust dynamic between them that I couldn't buy it changing Beta's disposition towards Aloy so completely and magically; I mean, they're practically soul sisters after that point.

    It's all symptomatic of the issue that FW is not a game with good writing or knows how to deal with its characters properly for the vast majority of the time. Kotallo was a bright spot, though. He had an actual personality, you could see how Aloy manages to win his trust, and he's fun to be around because he's sardonic as shit.

    Edit: lawl, I saw Yahtzee's video on Forbidden West, and good grief, both of us have similar observations. Maybe we're video gaming curmudgeon soulmates:

     
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    malor

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  • #334
    Sulphur said:
    but the execution of it just makes her seem pissed that she's not getting what she wants, and the rest of the game never makes that connection anywhere else, so it's just poorly done
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    It was pretty obvious that Aloy was pissed that Beta was such a weakling, when she'd spent so much time herself learning to fight back. She does eventually come to the realization that Beta didn't have Rost, and how important that lack turned out to be. But she's just annoyed at first because Beta is all the parts of herself she hates the most.

    I'm not sure how they could have telegraphed that any more strongly. It's not like there's a narrator to tell you.
     
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    Sulphur

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  • #335
    malor said:
    It was pretty obvious that Aloy was pissed that Beta was such a weakling, when she'd spent so much time herself learning to fight back. She does eventually come to the realization that Beta didn't have Rost, and how important that lack turned out to be. But she's just annoyed at first because Beta is all the parts of herself she hates the most.

    I'm not sure how they could have telegraphed that any more strongly. It's not like there's a narrator to tell you.
    Click to expand...
    See, that's the thing, if the games had actually paid more attention to depicting Aloy's self-doubt, her behaviour wouldn't seem so off-base. There are in fact numerous ways to telegraph that - she's always inner voicing her thoughts after all, but they're mostly musings on anything but herself, apart from 'I can send this to my stash' (sorry). Her companions could be actual voices of dissent, but they're conveniently not part of these conversations (except for Varl, who doesn't have much to say except encouragement and sets up a line of thought about Rost for further down the line).

    Again, I can see the intent, but I don't buy the execution. Rost, people skills, upbringing and all of that in mind, Aloy still doesn't come off as pissed at Beta for being weak to me, she comes off as pissed at Beta repeatedly telling her she's fucked, which is usually a story beat where you'd ask the protagonist to deal with that by reflecting on whether it's true or not. FW decides instead to table the issue so that Aloy can just keep going with the next bit of the game.
     
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    NervousEnergy

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  • #336
    CPX said:
    Yeah, but there's ways to narratively accomplish this. Zelda generally accomplishes this because most Links are fully different characters. The few Links that play sequels generally get some explanation for their massive loss of power, such as Ocarina/Mask Link relegated to child form with questionable timeline fuckery and the thorough grousing when sent to Termina for the first time. Metroid games usually have some critical suit failure early on (though Fusion's was probably the most sensical with the X infection). Mass Effect doesn't state it, but the whole "revival from death" in 2 and "years in detention" for 3 can effectively handwave the issue.

    One aspect where The Witcher show actually makes more sense...every monster gives Geralt trouble, some more than others. But it's a life-or-death every time.
    Click to expand...
    They did give a very short throw-away line at the beginning where Aloy says she lost all her equipment trying to get to the new area. It came off a bit lame. If she'd mentioned that, and perhaps a line or two about how materials and construction of weapons in the new area was different enough that she had to adapter her skills it would have been a better nod.

    Ultimately I agree with Backstop, though - this is just one of those things you mentally deal with in order to play a neat game that happens to be a direct sequel.

    I like the idea of #3 having most gameplay around side characters in the different regions looking for the weapons tech alluded to in BS, but I don't see the devs (or Sony) taking that kind of chance. Beta would be a neat foil here, but that would cause (for me) even more cognitive dissonance. We accept that Aloy is Supergirl due to a pretty detailed backstory of relentless physical training nearly from birth. A hacking minigame that she could do from the base like what you had with Cyberpunk 77 might work, though.

    The whole awkwardness of explaining Beta every time someone asked was... not well done. Clones are the exact same thing as identical twins, and I'm sure there's plenty of experience with that even in tribal culture. I never heard the word twin mentioned once, just her obviously trying to figure out how to get around explaining cloning and artificial gestation.
     
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    Backstop

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  • #337
    If I had to guess, they might go with a setup like Spider-Man 2, where you can tag in and out between Aloy and one or two other players for different missions. I also expect in the late game (after re-catching HEPHAESTUS) Aloy will be able to construct custom machines to fight for/with her. Lego-fashion, like you can choose the base body of a Strider or (x)Wing or Snapjaw, then mount different weapons on certain points, depending on what effects you want.

    And I only say that because of how GG shoehorned the cool parts of Breath of the Wild (glider, food recipes), I think they will have a punchlist of cool things from games that are out now that they want to put in. Auto-build from TOTK was such a big hit I can't see them leaving that alone. If I knew more about Helldivers 2 I'd pick something from there too,

    On another note: I was a little frustrated on this play-through (I played FW on PS4 when it came out, then Santa brought me a PS5 do I played through again to see Burning Shores) because I forgot that sometimes you need to rope-pull those handholds in the Cauldrons. I was so mad, like, nothing in the game told me how to do that. Which turns out, that's because I had skipped Cauldron CHI where that mechanic is explained. Weird how chatty Aloy didn't have anything to say about those handholds if she hadn't seen them.
     
    Diabolical

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  • #339
    Well, I’m at 68 hours, and I’ve stopped doing stuff. Now powering through. There are whole sections of the map I haven’t been to, at least one that is still completely opaque clouds with no decals on the map. And… I’m okay with that. I have a slew of errands, side quests, ruins, camps, etc I still haven’t touched as well.

    So why am I powering through? Because I was doing some side quests and realized that I was just skipping through the dialogue, and not getting distracted anymore. Just straight shots, fast travel if possible.

    I’m done with this world. I love it, but I’m not exploring or being distracted or anything along those lines anymore.

    I suspect I am VERY close to the end of the main quest line for the base game (I’m at the mission Singularity, if anyone was curious), and will tackle the DLC afterwards. And then on to the next game. It’s been a fantastic time, but it is time for this story to come to a close.

    I suspect that I’ll be wrapping up the main game story tomorrow night. Then on to Burning Shores.
     
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    GloatingSwine

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  • #340
    I need to polish off Burning Shores.

    I think I mined out pretty much everything in the main game bar the arena, which I did enough of to buy one piece of armour but was a bit annoying (I like the idea of the weapon and armour upgrades but they're maybe a bit grindy for a singleplayer game).

    I fell in a sticky patch of Dark Souls though getting back into shape before Shadows of the Erdtree consumes probably all of summer.

    (They should announce Horizon 3 so we know when the next world-shaking open world game is coming out to curse its launch.)
     
    Diabolical

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  • #342
    76.6 hours later, I have completed Forbidden West and The Burning Shores. Main quest line is completely done, lots of side quests and stuff left open. And I'm perfectly fine with that.

    That was a very good time. But I'm also happy I'm done with it. With my limited session play time and my obsession with demos? It took over two months to play through.

    But it's now time for this story to end. Or at least, to go into a deep slumber. I expect there to be a third one.

    I almost wish they had wrapped this up so there wouldn't need to be.

    Fun game.

    And (click - uninstall). Done.
     
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    BO(V)BZ

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  • #343
    I'm working my way through Burning Shores. I'm more on the completionist side of things, so I'm at ~145 hours so far, not sure how much more to go. I normally explore as much of the map as possible and do random side quests, and then come back to the main quest at the end, so I'm still finding all the various places in Burning Shores and have only done the first major quest there.

    I will say a lot of my time toward the end of the main campaign was hunting down upgrade materials for my weapons and armor - you end up having to kill a LOT of the bigger enemies, to the tune of maybe 2 dozen of some of them, to get all the parts you need, and I didn't buy every weapon, just the ones that sounded good / interesting.

    All this was of course optional, but for the most part I found battling the bigger robots to be fun enough to want to keep doing it. I didn't bother with all the Strike games, I beat the first two people I found and didn't enjoy it at all. I also didn't bother with any of the fighting pits past the first one.
     
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    Dakkon

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  • #344
    I started my NG+ Ultra Hard Playthrough a week ago. It is extremely rare for me to get hooked on a game this hard and to feel any level of completionism. Zero Dawn did it to me as well, but the last game before that was Dishonored 2. Anyway, I'm at like 180+ hours at this point, I went all in on getting most of the legendary weapons and outfits and upgrading the best of it, which I will grant got quite tedious and time consuming. Fortunately I discovered early on in my first playthrough that there is a custom difficulty option that disables the system where you have to knock components off of the machines in order to collect them. That option is not available on Ultra Hard and is proving problematic for upgrading the NG+ exclusive legendary weapons. Not that I need that gear, I've fully upgraded the best of the normal legendaries and most encounters are not that difficult. The most annoying encounters continue to be not the great big machines, but the mid tier machines with highly mobile movement patters, leap lashers, skydrifters, and clamberjaws being some of the worst examples of that particular bit of pain. Also, even the fully upgrade legendary ropecaster still sucks, which is disappointing. The best way to immobilize a machine seems to be to just brute force your way through electrical resistance and stun them.

    If you want to do something completely silly and make big machines fight each other, there is one place in Burning Shores where there is both a Shatterspine and a Thunderjaw and it is quite hilarious to override either one of them and watch them fight.
     
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    BO(V)BZ

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  • #346
    Dakkon said:
    The most annoying encounters continue to be not the great big machines, but the mid tier machines with highly mobile movement patters, leap lashers, skydrifters, and clamberjaws being some of the worst examples of that particular bit of pain. Also, even the fully upgrade legendary ropecaster still sucks, which is disappointing. The best way to immobilize a machine seems to be to just brute force your way through electrical resistance and stun them.
    Click to expand...
    I needed to get some parts from Waterwings and went to a place that had four Apex versions and that was an absolutely brutal fight. Machines on the ground, in the sky, jumping around and throwing rocks everywhere - it took a couple tries and I ran out of healing berries both times. I'm not exactly the world's best player, but I'm at least decent.
    Dakkon said:
    If you want to do something completely silly and make big machines fight each other, there is one place in Burning Shores where there is both a Shatterspine and a Thunderjaw and it is quite hilarious to override either one of them and watch them fight.
    Click to expand...

    Hah, I hadn't thought about that - I've been to that area at night maybe 4 times so far because I needed Luminous Brainstems, but I'll have to go back during the day to set up a monster brawl.

    For Brainstems, I realized it's a lot easier to kill Apex Behemoths and Tremortusks back in the Forbidden West, so I've since moved there.
     
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    greatlakeexpat

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  • #347
    CPX said:
    Well for starters, what box? :eng101:

    But in seriousness, don't feature just Aloy in the publicity art and don't bait-and-switch the audience. The fuckup with MGS2 was Kojima trolling the audience with a whole hour before switching protagonists to the new guy while never switching back.

    You can change up the formula as long as you're honest with the audience.
    Click to expand...
    I feel like they did that with TLOU part 2, a game I liked for the most part, but I wasn’t expecting to play as Abby for it felt like half of it.

    As for the PC version, I finally bought it last week after a Steam sale, and the story of HZD still fresh in my head after playing that last year on PC. I am digging the upgraded visuals and I still hate slitherfangs (fought the one near the beginning with what what felt like a pea shooter).

    I debating about making a detour for the burning shores, as I did a beeline for the frozen wilds in HZD and those blue weapons were completely OP in the base game.

    I’m beginning to remember how much I disliked Aloy though in my PS4 playthrough, looks like Nixxes added some options for her to be less chatty when walking around though.

    I understand she’s like 18-20, but the drama of it’s “all on me”, all the time. Being able to remember how good of a dude that Varl was in HZD and in HFW just makes Aloy more insufferable at times.
     
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