Horizon: Forbidden West

NervousEnergy

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IDK... Mars is a little small to terraform. And one of the early plot elements in Forgotten West is an image of the planet in Sirius that they were planning on terraforming. So the can at least detect habitableish planets.
I can see the plot point if they had a marginally habitable system they planned to fully terraform - Mars isn't. Gaia and a self-replicating machine army can't do anything about the major negatives of Mars, but if they had a world identified with atmosphere, low radiation, correct temp range, etc., then they could work with it. Still seems a lot less risky to just take a sight-seeing cruise around the Sol system and re-terraform Earth with their own tech if Gaia V1 didn't work out, and just... drop back in like gods if it did.

Heck, that would be how I would have written it. Fake the explosion and just circle the Sol system, waiting to take over/sabotage Gaia V1.
 

Sulphur

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Mars has plenty of water, and the basic problems are getting it in usable form, liberating greenhouse gases into the atmosphere, and temperature control. Given enough handwavium from Gaia's subordinate functions and loaded up resource stockpiles, at least two of them could be retooled to work on the first and second problem. Getting enough sunlight is a problem that may be beyond the limits of this macguffination though, I'll concede. I do like the idea of Mars being extra shiny due to orbital mirrors though.

If it's the same area (on the beach before you visit the Quen), I was able to cheese it by jumping into the bushes that are growing on that pillar of rock and squeezing behind some crevices by mistake. The T-Jaw stomped around me as I plinked away at it until it was dead. Brave Sir Robin style.

It's this place. And huh, looking at that video, I didn't think to use a boltblaster on that exposed weak section. The more you know.

And that sounds like a fun time too, watching something thrash around trying to get to you while dealing it death by a thousand arrowheads.
 
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Lt_Storm

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There were only 77-ish people in Far Zenith, per the game. I think Mars could house 'em easily enough. Fair point about the Sirius exoplanet, I didn't remember that.
The problem isn't available space, it's terraforming. Mars is small enough that it doesn't have a magnetic field anymore so the solar wind has stripped it off its atmosphere. This creates problems for terraforming, as the solar wind would be continually undoing your work. This isn't the only problem, but it is the big one.
 

NervousEnergy

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The problem isn't available space, it's terraforming. Mars is small enough that it doesn't have a magnetic field anymore so the solar wind has stripped it off its atmosphere. This creates problems for terraforming, as the solar wind would be continually undoing your work. This isn't the only problem, but it is the big one.
Yep, you could really only live underground, or under massive domes if they could block the radiation. The self-replicating machine tech of HZD could certainly build a colony, but you'd never make it like Earth.

What is the easiest way to do damage to an exposed heart of a large machine? I can easily get the side armor plates on a Thunderjaw shot off, exposing a glowing heart cavity, but I never could deliver a super-critical hit by shooting it. Perhaps using the wrong ammo type? Or does it have to be an explosive?
 
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Sulphur

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The problem isn't available space, it's terraforming. Mars is small enough that it doesn't have a magnetic field anymore so the solar wind has stripped it off its atmosphere. This creates problems for terraforming, as the solar wind would be continually undoing your work. This isn't the only problem, but it is the big one.
Ah, good point. Giving it a magnetosphere would have to be its own project, not something retooling the tech in the game could necessarily achieve.
 

Diabolical

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I am now 6 hours in, and have gotten pretty much nowhere. First mildly open area (The Daunt) I get to, I can literally see the destination for the first part of the quest chain. I pull a 90° and go up a cliff instead. And down the other side. And side quest. And a climbable thing. And beasts. And a spot I can’t access yet.

And then..
Ane then…
And then…

Just like in the first game. Ooooh what’s over here? runs the other way.

:biggreen:
 

Artichoke Sap

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What is the easiest way to do damage to an exposed heart of a large machine? I can easily get the side armor plates on a Thunderjaw shot off, exposing a glowing heart cavity, but I never could deliver a super-critical hit by shooting it. Perhaps using the wrong ammo type? Or does it have to be an explosive?
It's difficult to hit; despite the lumbering motion of the Thunderjaw. I mean, it is actually possible, and amazing, to hit the open heart with the 'jaw's own Disc Launcher, but I recommend using Concentration and just using arrows. In HZD, at least, the most lethal weapon was the Blast Sling (and upgrades), especially the sticky-bombs that did even more damage than the regular ones. Those were nice for Thunderjaw heart practice because you could see the blinking dots where you hit before they exploded, which helped adjust your arc and estimate distance since it was like having bullet holes in your range target.

In HFW, I would say try the drill javelins, because you can where they hit and stick. Also, drill javelins are silly and awesome. Well except for the continued grinding noise long after the machine is dead. But the weapon skill that gives you prox-detonated warheads on javelins is AMAZING, so you should always have a good javelin. :D
 
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Artichoke Sap

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My favorite weapon right now is a Sharpshot bow I unlocked that has advanced precision arrows; those things absolutely WRECK.
You just have to watch that you don't burn through all your volatile sludge crafting the advanced version. That was the ammo type that made me realize there was a scare(-er) resource required for the Advanced ammo types.
 
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invertedpanda

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8 hours in. I love how I can play this game for 20 minutes, or I can play it for three hours. That ability to support both truncated and long play sessions is such an important thing for me.
Eh, I don't like that there isn't a manual save option when you're in the middle of Cauldrons or some of the larger main story quests; Those can get pretty long, and with no way to save in between you're just guessing where you'll end up if you quit in the middle.
 

invertedpanda

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I'm level 48 now; Gonna do another cauldron and then start in on Burning Shores.

Ground out the Utaru Winterweave armor to max, and also got all my weapons to 4 out of 5 notches (got my 2 hunter bows to 5).

I think - out of all the enemies I've fought - I hate the Fireclaw the most. Getting 2 apex fireclaw hearts for the Winterweave armor is just.. Ugh. I just had to keep trying to keep a bunch of trees between us while I just whittled away at the thing; it has too few vulnerable points, and half are pretty much always going to be on the side opposite of you.
 
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Backstop

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Fireclaws forget you exist pretty fast of you break line-of-sight. So the thing to do is go to the Fireclaw site that's east and abit south from Thornmarsh. The site has a low ridge that's a crescent shape. Stealth any small machines before you alert the Fireclaw. Use your preferred method to Freeze the fireclaw, trying to only hit the back legs or talbone area. Then hit him with a Braced Shot to the knee, and run away around the little to break sight. Crouch down and go to the other end of the crescent, by this time it will have de-aggroed and you can repeat the freeze and knee his as needed.

This will get you the sac webbing if you need it too.
 
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Backstop

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My story-based problem with HFW is when they mention CYAN won't respond to Gaia's messages.

Uh, get on a Strider and mosey the fuck over to the Cut to give her a heads-up? She's up there watching Banuks paint rocks and would have a pretty hefty Heuristic MacGuffin to add to Gaia's efforts.

I also wish they would wrap up which of Gaia's modules was involved with A Moment's Peace.
 

invertedpanda

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On the last mission for Burning Shores.. And man, you definitely knew there were going to be Jurassic Park references the moment you saw the park.

What's interesting is that in order to get Apex Bileguts to spawn, you have to complete at least all but the very last mission in order to gain access to the final cauldron, which then will let them spawn. Because of that I'm running around with my Legendary Sharpshot bow from the DLC at 4 stars instead of 5.

Aside: I hate bileguts. Those things are obnoxious, even at level 59.

After I finish Burning Shores there's still quite a bit of interesting stuff to do; Overall, HFW definitely captured me more than HZD did, which I'd leave and come back to multiple times just because I got bored with it.

I've mostly focused on being a stealth archer because.. Well,. I'm me, but I think with what I've got left I'm going to mess more with overrides, too. I almost never found it useful in combat, preferring instead to use the berserk arrows in the rare instances where there's enough going on to want a distraction.
 

Artichoke Sap

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I've mostly focused on being a stealth archer because.. Well,. I'm me, but I think with what I've got left I'm going to mess more with overrides, too. I almost never found it useful in combat, preferring instead to use the berserk arrows in the rare instances where there's enough going on to want a distraction.
Do I want to walk/sneak up to a machine and be able to make one go nuts? And then wait for the cooldown? Or do I want to remain in stealth, in grass, from across the map, and make 3 of them go crazy almost simultaneously and watch the fireworks?

I know which one I chose!

I would guess this is part of why they have corrupted machines you can't override/corrupt, but also why they doubled down on "Daemonic" un-corruptible machines in Frozen Wilds.
 

invertedpanda

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The big difference between berserk and an override is that a berserk machine will still try to bite Aloy, rather than defend her or ignore her. Several times I have made the mistake of forgetting "berserk attacks the nearest thing" and being that nearest thing.
One advantage of override as well is that you can use target arrows to get them to attack specific targets, but I still find it kinda "meh" in many cases. It's usually pretty rare that I am in a situation where overriding something to attack other things is going to work out better than stealthily eliminating them or sniping at sensitive parts from range.
 
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invertedpanda

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Beat it last night; It was an interesting final boss fight.. Not really much of a fight but more of a "dodge and shoot these specific parts" in different stages fight. Was pretty epic, but I'm definitely going to enjoy replaying Ghost of Tsushima more, where the fights are more traditional, rather than "Hit the thing when it glows".
 

Sulphur

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I enjoyed that Guerrilla took the opportunity to make it a larger battle than Horizon generally does, the sort of battle with the scale pushed out that you'd usually find in the earlier God of War games. I enjoyed it visually, but yeah, mechanically it was kinda one-note and the last part was a bit silly. Overall, a very decent expansion IMO, with a lot of love put into those wink and nod references.
 
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Ashe

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I usually stick with Ranged Master or the one that boosts Elementals because my gear isn't great. I never remember the cloak exists until I'm halfway done with the rebel camp. I should throw a smoke bomb and then cloak up, that's a thought. At elast I've been getting better about changing outfits depending on what's spraying flames or acid at me.


That maters a lot less for the mission fights, compared to just bumping into a bunch of machines patrolling a field. Most times there's a LOT of help on the battlefield in the form of log traps and dead Bellowbacks to use as bombs. I just did one last night where there was a Frostclaw circling a rebel camp and I thought oh man but I actually took the bear down with three arrows by staying hidden and waiting for it to get under log traps.

If you can sneak up to a Bellowback corpse, set a couple of blast traps, get clear and use a rock to lure a couple machines in, kaboom. That's half their health bar right there and you're still hidden.

I do recommend moving long the story a bit to unlock some better gear if you're struggling as well. A lot easier to Freeze or Burn machines when it only takes a shot or two.
Damn! Never thought about doing this.
 

Dakkon

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Finished my initial playthrough of the main story yesterday and have some assorted thoughts and tips both non-story and story.
Probably nothing that hasn't already been discussed ad-nauseum from the original PS release, but here we go anyway.

First non-story and basically spoiler free stuff.

To start with, as you proceed down the main quest you will eventually encounter a split in the main quest where there are 3 sub quests. For anyone who hasn't got there yet, I would recommend basically bee-lining these quests and get them done. You get some essential non-weapon kit that you will need for later parts of the game exploration, so maybe hold off on extensive side questing until you get to this point.

Early to mid game combat I found to be a bit rough. In hindsight I think that focusing on 2-3 pieces of Rare (blue) gear, aka, 2 weapons and an outfit, would have been the best course of action. There are so many new weapons that enable new ways of doing combat but they can spread you really thin on much needed and difficult to acquire machine parts, so I think sticking to what you know from ZD is probably the best course of action. For me that was a hunter bow and a sharpshot bow. The blastsling and ropecaster have both been downgraded from ZD and just weren't as useful.

Later game some specific gear recommendations. You will need maxed out Very-Rare equipment to take on the arena which is where the majority of the Legendary equipment comes from. I've only barely started the arena, so I can't comment on it much. You will want the Lightning Hunter Bow as this is the best source of shock buildup, there is no legendary equivalent. Shock is a much more reliable way of temporarily disabling machines than ropecasters. Likewise you will also want the Glowblast Very-Rare Sharpshot Bow. This is your best source of Tear Precision arrows (the equivalent of Tearblast ammo from ZD), which you will need for a few specific bits of machine part farming. For my general purpose bows I ended up with the Vanguard Hunter bow and the Delta Sharpshot bow.

I you, like me, got impatient with farming parts you should know that if you go into settings you can change the difficulty to Custom, and you will have an option to turn on Easy Loot, which which will change it so that as long as you don't destroy a part you will be able to loot it instead of having to knock the part off.

That said, there are a few specific parts that you will still have to go out of your way to farm. The first of which is sac webbings. These come from the machines that spit elemental damage, Bellow Backs, Snapmaws, and the like. In order to loot the webbing you have to specifically not blow up giant bubbles of liquid that they carry around. You will also need a lot of Stormbird Cannons, which is where the Glowblast bow comes in. The only way to reliably farm these is to use the tear precision arrows to knock the thing off their chests. The part has very low hp and is very easy to destroy if you don't take care with it.

As you upgrade your very rare weapons it will very quickly start to snowball and become cakewalk. Even the largest machines will only take a handful of shots from a fully upgraded delta bow to down (provided you are hitting your shots on weak points).

Last tip on gear, make sure you follow the Revel Camp (not outpost) questline to the end. The reward is a very nice piece of gear (which is technically missable, make sure you loot everything).

On the whole I enjoyed it every bit as much as ZD. I thought the advancement of the story was overall quite good.
Some of my favorite parts of ZD were the cauldrons and the tallnecks, the new cauldrons added some nice twists and I really loved the new puzzles for the tallnecks, and particularly the combined cauldron and tallneck.

I think my only criticism of the story was Varl's death. It was in some ways predictable that one of Aloy's companions would die, but at the same time rather sudden, and then you immediately get thrown into 20 minutes of cutscene/dialogue with the Zenith who is obviously going to betray you. It just fell flat for me. And then of course obviously Varl and Zo and had been knocking boots, all of the subtext from conversations with them had made that clear, and of course Zo is with child.

Incidentally, for anyone who was wracking their brain listening to Zo going, this VA sounds incredibly familiar, it eventually dawned on me that she sounds almost exactly like Teyla from Startgate Atlantis. Surely, I thought to myself, that there is no way they got Rachel Lutrell to do this voice work, and no, it is not Rachel, it is Rachel's little sister Erica, so that explains that.
 

NervousEnergy

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Hit level 51 and just about to start the end of the 'three part questline' - Gemini. Massively over-leveled for this part of the game, but all those NPCs that needed help where just so persuasive...

That's always one of the immersion breakers you just have to ignore in open world games like this. Can't count how many times I've gone from Las Vegas to San Fran, yet the entire world is ending in a few months. It's like - "Aloy - the world is about to end! Hurry and figure out how to keep that from happening!!" But then - "my cat is stuck in a tree! Please travel back and forth across the entire world to farm the machine parts needed to construct the Safe Cat Removal Device."

Hard to write a game script that can resolve the contradictions in open world quest design and plot urgency.
 

CPX

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Hit level 51 and just about to start the end of the 'three part questline' - Gemini. Massively over-leveled for this part of the game, but all those NPCs that needed help where just so persuasive...

That's always one of the immersion breakers you just have to ignore in open world games like this. Can't count how many times I've gone from Las Vegas to San Fran, yet the entire world is ending in a few months. It's like - "Aloy - the world is about to end! Hurry and figure out how to keep that from happening!!" But then - "my cat is stuck in a tree! Please travel back and forth across the entire world to farm the machine parts needed to construct the Safe Cat Removal Device."

Hard to write a game script that can resolve the contradictions in open world quest design and plot urgency.

Yahtzee covered the major issue with HFW's story in Extra Punctuation before he moved on to Second Wind. The problem with Aloy as the literal genetic messiah is that she should in no way be adventuring anymore. She should have a team working for her that explores and secures the sites so she can just do her thing. One errant arrow or robot encounter and Earth is officially done.

I do believe a much more interesting game could come from having to take over as one of Aloy's various allies for various parts of the game with each having their own strengths and weaknesses. Anyone with a focus and Aloy's spear can pretty much do what Aloy can except the genetic locks.

There's a whole bunch of other problems as you mention summed up by the following line:

Walton Goggins said:
Thou shalt get sidetracked by bullshit every time.
 

CPX

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That is not a problem with the story. Think about who Aloy is. That would never occur to her, and she would fight that idea if it were brought to her.

Yes it is a problem with the story because literally everyone else should see how her recklessness is endangering the existence of all life on the planet. She should honestly know better by this point. The alternative? Don't write the story to require her innate characteristics, just her actions.
 

CPX

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As far as being bothered by the story, I find the lone-wolf Aloy more plausible than, say.. Breaking Bad.

Because yeah, a straight-laced guy is going to refuse help and instead cook meth. That makes lots of sense.

(I kept trying to watch BB, but then I just think about that and get pissed off)

Well that was a huge stretch for comparison (I would've called out less plausible games), but okay. I'll leave this spoiler tagged for your benefit if you try watching again though I'll do my best to not spoil as much as I can to make the comparison with HFW work:

Breaking Bad is explicitly about Walter White's continuing descent into a life of crime. He is not a straight-laced guy but rather an arrogant, prideful sociopath of the highest order who always lacked the opportunity to indulge his ego's desire of fame and respect. The show is us exploring this aspect of Walter's personality with him. The pilot makes absolutely clear why he refuses the help when he absolutely should be taking it. Despite his continued claim throughout the show that he's "doing this for his family", he isn't. That contradiction of motivation makes the character of Walter White work.

Where does that come back to HFW? Aloy in HZD at least spent a part of the game wanting something for herself: acceptance of the tribe at first, maintaining her relationship to her adoptive father second, and finally a revelation of her identity and its backstory. She wanted to save the world as she discovered the problems but she still wanted things for herself. What does Aloy want for herself in HFW?
 
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Xavin

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What does Aloy want for herself in HFW?
She doesn't know what she wants for herself because she hasn't had time to think about that since her whole reality was flipped upside down and put into a blender in the last third of the first one. This is a middle story of at least 3 and they make it very clear going into it that's she hasn't focused on anything else other tracking down what she's tracking down at the beginning of FW. Assuming narrative Aloy beelines the story objectives, FWs story happens in a pretty condensed period of time.

She was also a literal outcast her whole life and has zero social skills, community, or attachment to social constructs. She grew up knowing that the things everyone else thought were magic, gods, etc, were just tech, so she doesn't trust the judgement of anyone else because they have always looked and acted like superstitious tribalists that would happily cut off their own nose to spite their face. Regardless of her special innate abilities, that's why she's a loner. That may or may not change in future games, but she's always been a very well fleshed out, consistent, and relatable character to me. I think some people may just be way too social to understand where she's coming from.
 

CPX

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She doesn't know what she wants for herself because she hasn't had time to think about that since her whole reality was flipped upside down and put into a blender in the last third of the first one. This is a middle story of at least 3 and they make it very clear going into it that's she hasn't focused on anything else other tracking down what she's tracking down at the beginning of FW. Assuming narrative Aloy beelines the story objectives, FWs story happens in a pretty condensed period of time.

This is just excusing poor writing given the devs spent plenty of time with fucking about side quests to permit more time developing Aloy as a character.

She was also a literal outcast her whole life and has zero social skills, community, or attachment to social constructs. She grew up knowing that the things everyone else thought were magic, gods, etc, were just tech, so she doesn't trust the judgement of anyone else because they have always looked and acted like superstitious tribalists that would happily cut off their own nose to spite their face. Regardless of her special innate abilities, that's why she's a loner. That may or may not change in future games, but she's always been a very well fleshed out, consistent, and relatable character to me. I think some people may just be way too social to understand where she's coming from.

See earlier post how that was a part of HZD. I don't care how much of a social outcast anyone is. Even hermits have some sort of desire.
 

Sulphur

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She doesn't know what she wants for herself because she hasn't had time to think about that since her whole reality was flipped upside down and put into a blender in the last third of the first one. This is a middle story of at least 3 and they make it very clear going into it that's she hasn't focused on anything else other tracking down what she's tracking down at the beginning of FW. Assuming narrative Aloy beelines the story objectives, FWs story happens in a pretty condensed period of time.

She was also a literal outcast her whole life and has zero social skills, community, or attachment to social constructs. She grew up knowing that the things everyone else thought were magic, gods, etc, were just tech, so she doesn't trust the judgement of anyone else because they have always looked and acted like superstitious tribalists that would happily cut off their own nose to spite their face. Regardless of her special innate abilities, that's why she's a loner. That may or may not change in future games, but she's always been a very well fleshed out, consistent, and relatable character to me. I think some people may just be way too social to understand where she's coming from.

Er, gotta disagree on 'fleshed out' and 'consistent', but relatable... sure, I guess. I'm assuming you don't mean the whole 'girl with a saviour complex' thing for that part.

Aloy as a person has essentially one motivation: save the world. Everything else follows from that, which makes the disparity between her fucking around for people she just met and saving the world on a time limit a pretty big one, requiring a large amount of suspension of disbelief. Granted, I'm able to do this, because the alternative is a hard time limit, which isn't fun at the best of times. But here's the thing about Aloy as a person in this world: she started off as an outcast, then became the saviour of the world, has no time for friends ('I have to go',) but also has time to listen to random exposition dumps from them, and to help out every rando she meets.

The issue is that Aloy as a character and Aloy as a player character have to co-exist. Aloy as the person you play needs to save the world and help everybody and collect robodino parts and help salvage operations and clear camps out and spelunk caves and stab flowers because it's a video game catering to your power fantasy. Aloy as a character, then, exists mostly as a sketch because of this - she's every game's generic hero, with a few parts filled in, because more than that would highlight an even bigger disparity between your actions as a player and what she should be thinking and doing as a character with a deep dislike for her community.

So she shows growth in HFW by being snide to people getting in her way (see: the priest after the embassy) and losing patience with people who don't affirm her (see: Beta), because that's most likely how you the player would feel after saving the world as Aloy in ZD, so that's as far as it can go. Which is a problem, because she has no inner conflict whatsoever about what she's doing at any point in time in the game. She's always right, and the game proves her right at every opportunity*. There's very little introspection that I can recall, and I think there was like one side quest where she could have showed some real personality (the man with dementia), but her inner voice goes 'he doesn't seem to be all there' in her default critical tone. The only real fleshing out you see is when Burning Shores gives her a potential love interest, and it finally gives her the freedom to be awkward around another person and navigate her way through it in a conversation or two; but it's also given short shrift because, well, the world (or something threatening it by proxy) needs saving. There's never enough time for Aloy to be Aloy; but also, if she was asked to be anything but the world-saver, who could she be as a real person?

The answer is anything you as the player want her to be, so long as it's a hero. And that is because Guerrilla seems to think that's the wrong question to ask.


*Well, almost. The idea to give the Zeniths a diversion didn't work, I'll give it that.
 
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