GESC Racing: The perpetual all things virtual cars thread. (includes GT6,Forza 5,etc)

skazz

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So the ai gets to rubber band, and then torpedoes you at the next turn? 🤔 So that's what they've been training in FH5
They spent a whole video stating that their new AI is naturally fast and they have zero acceleration or braking cheats and zero rubber banding anymore.
"Anything they can do, you can do, since the AI uses the same physics as the player" is being stated.

So no, FH5's AI deficiencies should not be appearing in FM2023. Whether the AI in FM2023 is properly aware of the player and other cars and will battle while leaving room (instead of trying to bash you off the racing line) remains to be seen :judge:
 
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skazz

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They sneaked in a final track announcement. The final three being Homestead, Lime Rock and Watkins Glen.



And the current car list (with 150+ still to be announced of the promised 500+ cars)
 

skazz

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See the second link in my post above ;)

Edit: Although I don't think this list includes the DLC extras from the premium edition:
 

Kilkenny

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While more tracks is better, looking at that list I feel that there's enough for the ForzArs group to get our weekly race on. Especially if we have new tracks added at a decent cadence. Hopefully it's not just the 'Ring and maybe one or two others. But it they can push out 4-5/year for a couple of years that would be really nice & keeps the game fresh.

So, is everyone getting the Full Wanker Editiontm?
 
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skazz

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I preordered the Premium Edition as soon as it was available (Microsoft store to use on my Series X and PC interchangeably). Just like I did with FH3, FM7, FH4 and FH5 (all of the PC era cross-platform Forzas basically).

I should note that FM2023 has promised cross-platform saves to include the MS Store PC version, Steam PC version and Xbox. No clue how they will link up Steam Cloud and Xbox cloud but they are promising it. But the Steam version is still a separate purchase from the MS Store one.
 

BigLan

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So, is everyone getting the Full Wanker Editiontm?
I'll probably go in for the $36 premium upgrade edition for VIP (2x credits), car pass, and the welcome pack / bonus (5 car redemptions + 500k credits.) I might be able to get enough bing rewards before release too.

It'll give me an excuse to set up the series S I got a couple of months ago (had some drywalling done at home and didn't want to fill it with dust.) I guess the 1x could do cloud streaming when I'm not on the PC.
 
So, is everyone getting the Full Wanker Editiontm?
Undecided...

Honestly, 90$cdn for a game I find a bit ridiculous, 130$cdn is worse, and if it's for in game currency / leveling up faster, I find that contrary to the purpose of the game; the faster you 'finish' the game, the less play time you get out of it... If it's cars, I find it a bit silly a ~50% price increase to get 530 cars instead of 500 cars, or whathever the ridiculous # of cars there will be in the game.... And if the tracks are including in the base game... Doesn't seem that much worth it to me. Horizon gets you expansions, so that's a huge chunk of new content, so bit different...

But in the end, it's just $40... It's frugal nature & common sense & opposition to 'bad' pricing DLC scheme, VS just going 'whatever' and 'letting them win' and giving them what they want lol That, plus knowing you'll likely spend literal weeks in the game... But hey, we do need some distraction from the upcoming collapse, so probably... lmao!

(but reading Skazz comments about AI improvements, penalty system, etc., probably... Likely hyped a bit from their marketing and all, but does sound appealing!)
 

skazz

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I've always just paid Forza's $/€100 price because I support their work and know that I will get hundreds of hours out of each game. If only my Steam library was so cost efficient in terms of $ per hour played....

I also pay for Gamepass these days, but that's for everything else except Forza. For example Starfield or GRiD Legends are things I don't feel the need to buy and will just play via Gamepass.
 

skazz

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When it comes to add-on pricing, I took a look at FH5 as a comparison. Note that Standard->Premium Edition was a $40 upgrade for FH5 but it's now a $30 upgrade for FM2023 since the base game price went up to $70. And FH5 priced the Premium Add-on bundle at $50, i.e. $10 more than the edition upgrade (but that bundle included 2 expansions).

I therefore expect the FM2023 Premium add-on pack to be $40 ($10 more than the Premium Edition upgrade).

If you stick with Gamepass for the base game, you could either get the Premium add-on pack, or just one or more individual add-on packs. For those, based on FH5 pricing I expect this if you choose to buy individual add-ons:
  • Welcome Pack $5
  • Car Pass $30
  • VIP $20
  • Race Day Car Pack $10
  • Totals $65, but can be got for $40 with the Premium Add-ons Bundle
  • Also you get to play 5 days early with the Premium Edition or Premium Add-on bundle

In terms of value:
  • Welcome Pack is just some free credits and 5 tuned cars available right at the start, all available from the car dealer. <edit: I just realised that the FH5 welcome pack cars are unique second versions of these cars, and can't be purchased at the dealer. So they are tuned versions of dealership cars, but count as separate cars for % garage completion>
  • Car Pass is 30 DLC cars, 1 per week. All "new to Forza" so not recycled from FH5.
  • Race Day Car Pack is 8 DLC cars (some interesting ones too).
  • VIP gives 5 Forza Edition cars (unique to VIP holders), plus double credits per race and some visual VIP cosmetics
I can only see the Premium Add-on being the best choice if you want anything more than just the Car Pass, basically.
 
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Interesting, there will be skill and safety rating in FM, plus other details about multiplayer, for instance, there will be a spec events, where everyone runs the same car (tuning?).

Source: Super GT vid "Will FM Multiplayer be any good?"

I wonder if they will also force people to play without the assists... Like racing line, ABS, traction control, etc., as they would result in an advantage; being faster, it would force people to use them also, if they want to be on equal footing... But honestly, that would be a bit boring to me... But in another sense, cars these days do have ABS, traction control, etc., so ... not really 'cheats'...

At the end he mentions he'll start putting out FM gameplay 11th september.
 
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BigLan

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The driver assists in Forza games have always been weird though, and basically act more as a difficulty modifier. Manual shifting is still faster than Auto (and Manual+Clutch even faster) despite the fact that high performance automatics have been quicker for the last decade+. I think the Audi DSG of the mid 00's was one of the first ones to be faster than the manual transmission, and F1 have been using them since the 90's. They're a very niche option on any supercar, mostly offered for "driver feel" rather than 0-60 or lap times.

ABS and traction control also typically make you slower in game as well, and while some skilled drivers might be faster in real life without them, the vast majority of drivers would benefit from them (threshold braking is really hard to do.)

Maybe FM is finally getting more realistic though.
 
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skazz

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The devs promised that assists will no longer act as a difficulty multiplier in FM2023.

As Biglan said, Forza Motorsport in particular has had very unusual assists. For instance ABS: If you turn it on, it prevents you from locking the brakes and not stopping, but braking yourself at the threshold of ABS coming on gives a clearly shorter stopping distance than letting ABS slow you down, i.e. they simulate traditional road car ABS not modern high tech race car ABS.

I do really like how this is also communicated via the controller impulse rumble motor in the brake trigger (or the rumble motor in your Fanatec Clubsport pedals brake unit).

Historically it’s also been faster to disable automatic gears as well as the assists, but in one video they stated that manual clutch and the weird meta of power shifting will no longer be advantageous so I think we will just have to wait and see with all the assists how things have changed.
 
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Yeah also, while I've never really used the racing line assist, I'm not entirely sure it's optimal; should be a huge help for someone who doesn't know a track, but when you've learned the track and braking points for a specific car, do they entirely correspond to the suggested line? Is the line even optimized for car/tuning, or just like general advice info?

Bit same for ABS & traction control, it's one thing that it's faster not to use them if you can brake and accelerate perfectly without it, but apparently, in F5H, seems like a huge portion of players would benefit from it, myself included... Just takes 1 corner where you lock up the brakes and lose 2-3 positions to make it worth it vs gaining a marginal amount of time per optimal lap...

Plus being unfamiliar with most F5H tracks, and the fact that the cost of locking is so high, makes you brake much sooner than you would normally, which makes you quite a bit slower... Anyway, definitely different case for FM (less tracks to learn) and depending on skill levels.

Beginners/mid tier is likely where they benefit players the most, and where people are bound to use them most. But... I guess it will be reflected in skill rating. Whether someone can brake and accelerate properly, vs a less-skilled player using ABS/TC & even racing line, in the end, on the track, both players will be competitive. One is better, but for racing, for the better player, it won't make any difference in the race... It will affect rating; but who cares really... Should be all about the racing! And the safety rating is also something which will help tremendously for distinguishing good/bad players, non-depending on assists.
 

skazz

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Yeah also, while I've never really used the racing line assist, I'm not entirely sure it's optimal; should be a huge help for someone who doesn't know a track, but when you've learned the track and braking points for a specific car, do they entirely correspond to the suggested line? Is the line even optimized for car/tuning, or just like general advice info?

Bit same for ABS & traction control, it's one thing that it's faster not to use them if you can brake and accelerate perfectly without it, but apparently, in F5H, seems like a huge portion of players would benefit from it, myself included... Just takes 1 corner where you lock up the brakes and lose 2-3 positions to make it worth it vs gaining a marginal amount of time per optimal lap...

Plus being unfamiliar with most F5H tracks, and the fact that the cost of locking is so high, makes you brake much sooner than you would normally, which makes you quite a bit slower... Anyway, definitely different case for FM (less tracks to learn) and depending on skill levels.

Beginners/mid tier is likely where they benefit players the most, and where people are bound to use them most. But... I guess it will be reflected in skill rating. Whether someone can brake and accelerate properly, vs a less-skilled player using ABS/TC & even racing line, in the end, on the track, both players will be competitive. One is better, but for racing, for the better player, it won't make any difference in the race... It will affect rating; but who cares really... Should be all about the racing! And the safety rating is also something which will help tremendously for distinguishing good/bad players, non-depending on assists.
Just so you know, I've done some comparisons between FM7 and FH5 assists, and would summarize the differences:
  • FH5 ABS is a lot friendlier than FM7. If you trigger ABS in FH5 it only slightly increases braking distance (and in FH4 the gap is even smaller), so one lockup is enough to give an ABS player the edge. In FM7 you slow down noticeably worse if ABS triggers than if it doesn't, so it loses you quite a lot of time.
  • However I should point out that if you lock your brakes in FH5, you can also get them unlocked easier than in FM7. I.e. you don't slide forward without any steering for as long in FH5 as you do in FM7. So you need more care on the throttle in FM7 whether ABS is enabled or not.
  • FH5 TC is the other way round. It feels like it gives you just a little bit of slip (like a modern Ferrari's TC system does) then holds it and lets you drive out. FM7's TC is more effective at avoiding slip, although I guess it does this by reducing power more than FH5. Less sliding, more stability in FM7.
  • Edit: Forgot to mention that both FH5 and FM7 TC has a limit to effectiveness. If you pick something with lots of horsepower/torque and road tyres, you can lay big black lines after every corner with TC on or not.

So yeah, FH5 ABS is something I wouldn't ever think of turning off since , whereas in FM7 it's more of a decision.

This is where FM2023 gets interesting. Will it "penalize" the player for ABS quite as much as FM7, or be more like FH5?
 
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Kilkenny

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New thread:
 

Ecmaster76

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i.e. they simulate traditional road car ABS not modern high tech race car ABS.
I really wished they simulated the actual equipment a car had installed (with the option to swap/upgrade) instead of making it global assist/input settings

That includes safety systems functions and transmission control method. For the latter that would have to be an optional mode for people with a full setup.
 

BigLan

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I really wished they simulated the actual equipment a car had installed (with the option to swap/upgrade) instead of making it global assist/input settings

That includes safety systems functions and transmission control method. For the latter that would have to be an optional mode for people with a full setup.
Agreed. There's nothing like driving an SF90 with manual+clutch transmission.

I imagine it would add a whole layer of complexity though, having to model abs and TC for each car - and I can't imagine manufacturers would be eager to share the technical details. Supercars come with selectable levels of handling, but even sports cars from BMW or the Focus ST have different driver modes that I'd love to see in a game.
 

Ecmaster76

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I imagine it would add a whole layer of complexity though, having to model abs and TC for each car - and I can't imagine manufacturers would be eager to share the technical details.
They could probably just fudge it like they do with the various tire types

They dont simulate Goodyear vs Pirelli vs Firestone, etc. Just the typical performance of different eras/style of tire
 
I drive with a controller and realized the other day that on Forza Motorsport 7 I’ve had some sort of steering assist on for like, forever. I switched it to normal ( now only other assist enabled is ABS) and what a difference! I had thought before that maybe my controller was broken or that my set up just sucked. The car just wouldn’t turn!
it’s like I have a brand new game! I do multiplayer in C class almost exclusively and I am making podiums so much more often now. I can’t believe what a difference that one little change made. Also feeling really stupid for suffering so long before discovering this.
 

LuNatic_

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After years of get-of-my-lawn style grumbling about the problems with racing game sequels not living up to their predecessors, I decided to risk my nostalgia and play the first Forza Horizon again. I feel vindicated. The only thing I miss from the newer games is the ability to tune the handling of the cars. The racing is better, the pre-drivatar AI is better, the progression based story is better. It is absolutely the best game in the series IMO.
 

skazz

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After years of get-of-my-lawn style grumbling about the problems with racing game sequels not living up to their predecessors, I decided to risk my nostalgia and play the first Forza Horizon again. I feel vindicated. The only thing I miss from the newer games is the ability to tune the handling of the cars. The racing is better, the pre-drivatar AI is better, the progression based story is better. It is absolutely the best game in the series IMO.
It all depends what you want. Personally I think the driving is so much nicer in FH4 and FH5 that I could never go back. And besides, playing in 4k@60 with HDR and excellent lighting models while driving anywhere on the map is a big part of what makes modern Horizon tick, since the series is after all aimed at enjoying cars.

I guess you want Horizon to be more of a story-based game, whereas I see it as having fun enjoying cars with some AI racing as a pastime :D
 

LuNatic_

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It all depends what you want. Personally I think the driving is so much nicer in FH4 and FH5 that I could never go back. And besides, playing in 4k@60 with HDR and excellent lighting models while driving anywhere on the map is a big part of what makes modern Horizon tick, since the series is after all aimed at enjoying cars.

I guess you want Horizon to be more of a story-based game, whereas I see it as having fun enjoying cars with some AI racing as a pastime :D

Some of it is definitely personal preference. I've never liked the off-roading in FH since they introduced it in FH2 and I hate, absolutely hate cross country racing events. I want to race on tar or gravel, and that's it. Coming from FH5 back to FH1 I'm not convinced that there actually has been a noticeable improvement in the driving model. Pretty graphics are nice, but I'll always choose gameplay over them.
 

skazz

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Some of it is definitely personal preference. I've never liked the off-roading in FH since they introduced it in FH2 and I hate, absolutely hate cross country racing events. I want to race on tar or gravel, and that's it. Coming from FH5 back to FH1 I'm not convinced that there actually has been a noticeable improvement in the driving model. Pretty graphics are nice, but I'll always choose gameplay over them.
Yeah, that's a clear view and explains a lot.

I have had so much fun racing cross country in FH4 across the rolling grassy hills and in FH3/FH5 through the deserts and sand dunes, and racing down muddy roads in both FH4 and FH5. Heck, I love doing this in SUVs in particular, which is obviously the antithesis of proper road racing.
 

ruet

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Yeah, that's a clear view and explains a lot.

I have had so much fun racing cross country in FH4 across the rolling grassy hills and in FH3/FH5 through the deserts and sand dunes, and racing down muddy roads in both FH4 and FH5. Heck, I love doing this in SUVs in particular, which is obviously the antithesis of proper road racing.

My problem with off-roading in FH is that there's no reason to use an off-road vehicle to do it. Just AWD drivetrain swap a 200 MPH car, slap some AT tires on it and you have a 200 MPH off-road car. It gets really boring, really quickly. Heck, with something like a Centenario you can just skip the drivetrain swap.
 

skazz

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I get your point, but going through water works a lot better in a real off-roader, and off-roader suspension soaks up the bumps a lot better (especially in the Rally Expansion). Also being higher off the ground is a real benefit when driving through fields.

Still, that's only marginal. In the end, it just feels more fun to me to go off road in vehicles designed for it. Just like I prefer road racing in road cars.
 

PKDAWG

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I drove through the inro things in Forza Motorsport tonight (with a controller, too lazy to deal with the wheel/pedal setup shit).

Not sure what I think yet since I selected the AWD Subaru which is an understeer pig as you'd expect.

I bought it on Steam since the WAF of dragging my wheel/pedals rig in front of her girl TV console is below zero.

More later.
 

BigLan

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I drove through the inro things in Forza Motorsport tonight (with a controller, too lazy to deal with the wheel/pedal setup shit).

Not sure what I think yet since I selected the AWD Subaru which is an understeer pig as you'd expect.

I bought it on Steam since the WAF of dragging my wheel/pedals rig in front of her girl TV console is below zero.

More later.
There's a dedicated thread for it if you want to cross post.

Double check the assists (traction and stability control) - the game turned them back on for me in the first couple of races which made the mustang understeer too. It handled much better once I finally got them turned off.
 

skazz

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So today EA Sports WRC early access has started.

Official launch trailer:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFy_cWefBtQ




I preordered (DR2.0 owners get 10% off on Steam, preorders get free stuff including 5 seasons of VIP for extra cosmetics). It is only a $50 game at full price.

For those unaware, EA took over the official WRC license this year and gave it to Codemasters to produce. They took DiRT Rally 2.0 as the basis, but from early comments it looks like it's slightly easier to drive. It's built on Unreal Engine 4 so it looks good and they have managed to create larger stages than ever before. They also have a bunch of interesting stuff like timed rallies and creating your own rally car.

EA Play (or Gamepass Ultimate) players get the usual 5 hours free play.


Anyone else intending to play it?
 

Oompah

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I started playing EA WRC yesterday. Seems pretty great so far. It's definitely more approachable than Dirt Rally 2.0, but that game was way too unforgiving in my opinion. The new WRC lets me dial in the difficulty that I want, so I'm not coming in last or second to last in every race, like in DR2.0.

The career mode seems to be cribbed in part from the F1 games, which I think was a good choice. Navigating the menus in career mode is a bit tedious, but I like that you have decisions to make on how to advance and build your team.

I've been playing on PC with the Logitech G Pro Wheel. I've got the setting dialed in to what I like, and I think it feels great. It's one of the better Trueforce implementations I've experienced, after maybe GT7.
 

LuNatic_

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Some of it is definitely personal preference. I've never liked the off-roading in FH since they introduced it in FH2 and I hate, absolutely hate cross country racing events. I want to race on tar or gravel, and that's it. Coming from FH5 back to FH1 I'm not convinced that there actually has been a noticeable improvement in the driving model. Pretty graphics are nice, but I'll always choose gameplay over them.

So, I've finally finished my playthrough of Forza Horizon 1. My feelings are mixed. I still maintain the story progression is much better than the make-your-own-festival shtick but it definitely isn't perfect. The car handling is definitely worse, although it only becomes apparent in the later game once the cars get faster. Vehicles have no weight. Aero does nothing to improve grip. Getting wheels off the ground results in a complete roll of the dice as to whether the car will just settle, spin, or launch itself way up in the air. Laterla grip is not a thing, regardless of how wide the tires are.

It really leaves me feeling frustrated that there isn't anything that takes the engine of the new game and applies the gameplay loop of the old one.
 

NervousEnergy

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I started playing EA WRC yesterday. Seems pretty great so far. It's definitely more approachable than Dirt Rally 2.0, but that game was way too unforgiving in my opinion. The new WRC lets me dial in the difficulty that I want, so I'm not coming in last or second to last in every race, like in DR2.0.

The career mode seems to be cribbed in part from the F1 games, which I think was a good choice. Navigating the menus in career mode is a bit tedious, but I like that you have decisions to make on how to advance and build your team.

I've been playing on PC with the Logitech G Pro Wheel. I've got the setting dialed in to what I like, and I think it feels great. It's one of the better Trueforce implementations I've experienced, after maybe GT7.
Doesn't appear that it has VR support yet. I'll try it when it finally arrives. iRacing doesn't do rally, though they have a fine dirt handling model. I've always been fascinated watching rally races - the driving skill on display is so much more obvious and apparent than watching F1 or NASCAR.

Finally got the pit fully back together, only to find the biggest 'fun' meta on iRacing has moved on from Skippies in the SB2000 to F4 racing. Not complaining, though, as the F4 car is a ton of fun. Much more forgiving in many ways than the Skip.

Now trawling eBay and Microcenter for a formula rim. Pricing is crazy - no-screen formula style rims go from the Morza KS at $270 to well over 4 figures, and I can't see much difference at all between them other than the name.
 

TK_SVT

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Not sure this is really the right thread, but it's general sim racing, I suppose.
GoG is currently giving away free the original FlatOut game. (Until Feb 22nd, I think?)

It was always my favorite of the series. (At least until Wreckfest came out something like 15 years later.) I have an original CD and box for FlatOut somewhere, but it's packed away, and I don't even have an optical drive anymore, anyhow. So for the low cost of FREE, this was a much easier way to get a hit of nostalgia. And it really delivered on that. GoG have the free soundtrack download, as well.

Right off the download, it installed and worked perfectly on my windows 10 system. At least for the races I tried. I remember the ragdoll games could be a bit glitchy at times. But I got correctly ragdoll ejected when I botched a turn and hit the edge of a cement barrier. (Remembering just how touchy the early analog controls were -- they didn't really use input smoothing back then! Took me a couple laps to get bring back some muscle memory.) Threw in a widescreen patch to fix the aspect ratio (my monitors insist on stretching a 4:3 out to 16:10, making everything much too fat) and it's all perfect. If there's any other fans out there, or anyone just curious, there's no reason not to get it.