SSD Fetish

continuum

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What's a safe, go-to m.2 NVMe drive these days to use as a boot drive in a Windows machine? I'm thinking at least 2 TB, but if the price isn't too crazy I could go for 4 TB.
Most are fine?

This list is for smaller form factor SSDs but it's still a great summary of the controller makers/who's using what.

If you want something specific I would grab a WD SN850X 2TB for $139.95 at Amazon. There's a bunch of other good ones-- but in a 5 second search I would say that's probably the best value I am seeing. I am sure I am missing a ton.

BTW I'm hearing horror stories re: ordering these things from Amazon these days, like the package showing up empty and Amazon being all difficult about refunds. Any recent experiences in that regard?
Make sure the seller is Amazon and not a 3rd party when buying from Amazon. We buy tons all the time with no issue. Same situation for say Newegg or other retailers too with 3rd party marketplaces...
 

Papageno

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Most are fine?

This list is for smaller form factor SSDs but it's still a great summary of the controller makers/who's using what.

If you want something specific I would grab a WD SN850X 2TB for $139.95 at Amazon. There's a bunch of other good ones-- but in a 5 second search I would say that's probably the best value I am seeing. I am sure I am missing a ton.

Make sure the seller is Amazon and not a 3rd party when buying from Amazon. We buy tons all the time with no issue. Same situation for say Newegg or other retailers too with 3rd party marketplaces...

Thanks for the info and links. BTW if a motherboard has two m.2 slots are there any issues putting in a second (non-boot) NVMe? I'm looking at an ASUS Prime AMD motherboard with just two slots.

Also that's great advice about making sure the seller is Amazon proper.
 

Doomlord_uk

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I have a couple of questions: are all gen5 nvme drives going to get hot? Or is it just going to be the first generation of them, and newer models will have more efficient silicon that won't get hot? There was a derBauer video where he evaluated performance of active vs passively cooled nvme drives (gen4 I assume but might have included some gen3) and ONLY the actively cooled ones really performed better over the longterm. Passive heatsinks deferred possible thermal throttling but didn't always prevent it. You actually have to get the heat away, not just store it up in a literal heatsink. Which makes sense.

Which brings me to my second question - are we going to see more watercooled heatsinks for nvme drives? There is already a couple of watercooled PCIe expansion cards plus that Corsair block. I'm wondering if the PCIe expansion cards like the Asus Hyper cards that can carry a lot of nvme dries and run them in parallel benefit from it. I mean it's hard to imagine the applications driving that cooling need, but they might exist and I'm curious to know whether we'll see more watercooling solutions for nVME storage.
 
Thanks for the info and links. BTW if a motherboard has two m.2 slots are there any issues putting in a second (non-boot) NVMe? I'm looking at an ASUS Prime AMD motherboard with just two slots.

Also that's great advice about making sure the seller is Amazon proper.
Depending on your set up, it might steal 8 of your PCI-E lanes dropping your GPU down from 16x to 8x. Probably not noticeable but worth mentioning.
 

Paladin

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The article I saw said "The Solid State Drives lose their filesystem after a sustained write" so you would need to copy a very large file to it that would constitute 'sustained', whatever that means. Basically just keep copying data to it via some kind of benchmark or other test tool until it breaks.

Even if you could find a way to do that, you would not get your money back, most likely. You would just get a refurbished replacement drive.

The risk is that it may not be affected by the issue at all and you will just be burning up its viable lifespan so it will then fail at some point in the future when you least expect it. I would just check if you can do a return to where you bought it and if not then use it and make sure you check for firmware updates.
 

Papageno

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Does this m.2 look serviceable as a non-boot drive? Looking to expand storage in my new system (which boots off a faster SSD):

Crucial P3 Plus 4TB PCIe Gen4 3D NAND NVMe M.2 SSD, up to 5000MB/s - CT4000P3PSSD8

BTW I do have two little square rubber pads that came with my new motherboard and say they’re for m.2 drives, anyone know what they’re about? I only ever installed one such drive in my life and I don’t remember having to use one. What is their purpose? n/m they're for single-sided drives and in any case, on my board they're not required for a 2280 sized drive.

Someone on another forum proposed this drive as an alternative to the one above: cheaper and faster:


Going for $224 on Amazon.
 
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Carhole

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Is anyone driving a Samsung 990 Pro 4TB yet? Perhaps the first firmware issues scared away this crowd? I’m honestly getting impatient with the advances of NVMe drives at this point and feel as though we should see 8 and 16TB options as standard fare, though I suppose that wouldn’t leave enough expansion for future offerings/gouging.
 

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I think SSDs have become a bit boring, not least because the ever-increasing benchmark numbers don't translate to increased "seat of the pants" performance for most ordinary end user tasks. PCIe4 drives are not noticeably quicker than PCIe3, and PCIe5 are too expensive and hot-running, and probably won't make any big real world difference either.

Not that a 4TB main system drive wouldn't be cool, but the main box already has several of 2TB NVME drives as well as a 4TB Micron datacentre SATA drive for bulk storage. I could upgrade the boys' PC but that only gets used for gaming, and as noted above, that is a use case that still doesn't really benefit from the New Hotness in SSDs.
 

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spiralscratch

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Carhole

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Encouraging that it doesn't have a massive heatsink bolted to it. A bit surprising it tops out at 2 TB.
I suspect that the former observation is related to the latter re: TDP density, and will not be surprised to see more elaborate solutions allowing for prolonged and heavy read/write activity. That’s a lot of layers to dissipate heat through.
 

steelghost

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Encouraging that it doesn't have a massive heatsink bolted to it. A bit surprising it tops out at 2 TB.
Yeah, I'm surprised we aren't seeing at least 4TB drives by now. I wonder if it's a power draw thing.

All that said, I'm fairly sure I could swap my trusty Corsair MP510 (Gen3, Phison E12 controller) into any modern system with a Gen4 or 5 drive, and apart from benchmarks I doubt many would notice the difference, at least most* of the time.

*I know there will be use cases (8k video editing? database development? whatever else) that do use the extra performance. But it seems like the huge "seat of the pants" improvement that we all felt moving from spinning drives to early SSDs isn't ever going to be replicated, despite huge advances in potential performance.
 

Kyuu

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Well yeah, that "seat of the pants" improvement was more about latency/seek-time than raw bandwidth. Going from HDDs to SSDs, the latency went from being measured in milliseconds to microseconds.

The bandwidth improvement has made things dependent on fast I/O possible, like games streaming assets for large, seamless environments, and load times on games are hugely reduced compared to what they were running on HDDs and optical media. But yeah, I wouldn't ever expect the incremental improvements in bandwidth from ever-faster PCIe buses (and the flash and controllers attached to it) to ever result in the same perceptual increase as the initial move from spinning rust to modern flash drives.
 

steelghost

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Some useful discussion on this topic over here.


The general view is that Solidigm drives and some particular Samsung drives lead the way on this.

Bear in mind that all modern SSDs generate a certain amount of heat, and if you have them in an enclosure, the only way for that heat to get out is by conducting through the metal of the enclosure. As there is no active cooling of the enclosure, it is inevitably going to get fairly warm, even with the more energy efficient drives.
 

Struxxffs

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Some useful discussion on this topic over here.


The general view is that Solidigm drives and some particular Samsung drives lead the way on this.

Bear in mind that all modern SSDs generate a certain amount of heat, and if you have them in an enclosure, the only way for that heat to get out is by conducting through the metal of the enclosure. As there is no active cooling of the enclosure, it is inevitably going to get fairly warm, even with the more energy efficient drives.

Thank you, that was a good read. The enclosure dissipating heat makes it uncomfortable to touch, but now (please correct me if wrong) I am more aware that this means the enclosure is doing its job.
For PCIe 3.0, I'd also look at the SK Hynix Gold P31.
For sure, if you can still find them for sale. Haven't seen any in the channel in the UK for some time 😔

Thank you for the recommendation. It turns out the SK Hynix Gold P31 are available to order
 
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dangle

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I've got a P31 in my laptop that I got for similar reasons (uses less battery power to write data than most PCIe 3 SSDs), which seems like it should be associated with lower temps, but as noted, all SSDs get warm when they write).

I didn't try to verify that my battery life was longer with the P31, I just tell myself that I've done everything I can to promote battery life. It's more data driven than buying magical audio cables FWIW. So now you'll be able to tell yourself that you've built one of the coolest running drive enclosures possible. :)

Here's some charts from Tom's re: the P31 and the 980 Pro looking at MBps/Watt during a 50GB copy (Assuming the testing conditions are comparable, the P31 should be using about 1/3 less power to do the same work, theoretically sending less heat into the enclosure):

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Edited to correct "P31 should be using about 1/3 the power" to say "P31 should be using about 1/3 LESS power"
 
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Struxxffs

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I've got a P31 in my laptop that I got for similar reasons (uses less battery power to write data than most PCIe 3 SSDs), which seems like it should be associated with lower temps, but as noted, all SSDs get warm when they write).

I didn't try to verify that my battery life was longer with the P31, I just tell myself that I've done everything I can to promote battery life. It's more data driven than buying magical audio cables FWIW. So now you'll be able to tell yourself that you've built one of the coolest running drive enclosures possible. :)

Here's some charts from Tom's re: the P31 and the 980 Pro looking at MBps/Watt during a 50GB copy (Assuming the testing conditions are comparable, the P31 should be using about 1/3 the power to do the same work, theoretically sending less heat into the enclosure):

View attachment 78561

View attachment 78569



Thank you for the charts and links. I did not know that the results would be that extensive. I'm glad to know that they could be much better. There are things to take into account such as ambient room temperature, temperature of devices that are around the drive enclosure, and how the drive is being used. The drive will probably stay a lot cooler anyway since it uses less power in comparison to the samsung 980 pro.
 

cerberusTI

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Price on the 990 PRO 4TB is down to $339 at Newegg which isn't much of a premium over the WD SN850X 4TB ($299)... and actually vs. most of its competitors it's priced fairly well. So honestly no idea why we're not hearing more real-world usage reports on it. OTOH this thread has been pretty quite lately...
I think part of this is that for about $100 more you can get a drive like the Crucial T700 instead.

If you are interested in paying a premium for a better drive, that seems like a better offer. If you are not, there are cheaper and still very good pcie4 drives. There is not a lot of reason to give them another $40 over the SN850X.

Anecdotally, having a computer with both the WD and Crucial drives basically next to each other, the computer with the T700 loads things noticeably faster. I would upgrade it on the other if it were easier to reach the SSD slot without basically disassembling the thing.

You could ask if waiting on the SSD comes up often enough that nearly halving those wait times is worth $100 over the lifetime of the computer, but if so, and you have the slot for it, that has much better performance.

They do not win on price, performance, or capacity, and the brand name took a blow a while ago, so I can see why this is not exciting to anyone.
 

continuum

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Anecdotally, having a computer with both the WD and Crucial drives basically next to each other, the computer with the T700 loads things noticeably faster.
Woah, that surprises me-- but also valuable to hear your real-world feedback there. I may have to go from PCI-e 4.0 to PCI-e 5.0 SSD for my next upgrade then...
 

cerberusTI

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Woah, that surprises me-- but also valuable to hear your real-world feedback there. I may have to go from PCI-e 4.0 to PCI-e 5.0 SSD for my next upgrade then...
There is also now a T705, which not only maxes out pcie5 for sustained transfers, it cuts read latency substantially over other current drives. That should be more noticeable in a wider variety of tasks (the T700 is only slightly faster in latency than other good drives otherwise, so you need a sustained transfer to see a big difference).

Amazon has a sale on that right now as well. It is more expensive, but at the $514 they currently want (list price $689) the only thing stopping me from getting one is that I would need to retrieve my computer from my desk (not easy through the catproofing), take it apart (remove a 4090 and a D-15 to get access to the slots), and transfer drive contents. I am fairly busy this week, and need that computer, so it seems like a bad idea for that reason.

It will likely become an upgrade as soon as someone comes out with 128GB DDR5 modules (unregistered), which will mean removing at least the CPU heatsink anyway.

I wish they tested the 4TB version in reviews, but those reviews are usually a little bit hard to find (the larger capacity T700 is substantially faster than the smaller ones, I do not know if that holds here as well)


Edit:
That is getting close to RAM latency, although in terms of latency it is also going to matter quite a bit how that read is handled in software. I suppose that is what DirectStorage is about (it is still a few orders of magnitude off, but that means making several copies in the driver and application becomes noticeable, especially if unpredicted page walks are involved in the general bookkeeping the driver must do, and in terms of bandwidth you can run out if you are not careful such that the speed mostly comes down to memory copies in software... none of that is great for systems from yesteryear designed to cache a spinning hard drive, as they tend to do a lot of copying and caching you would not want here, and are designed for compatibility more than anything else).

The difference between using MapViewOfFile and ReadFile can be a big one here, as in most cases ReadFile either does enough copying or has enough memory accesses in its logic to make RAM the limiting factor on the disk read. I have not tried DirectStorage, but it is supposedly designed to get everything possible out of the way, so the requests can go to firmware and end up in memory in bulk, with little extra handling. I did not see write support though, which is kind of a big deal for non game use.
 
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Ardax

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I did not see write support though, which is kind of a big deal for non game use.
DirectStorage was tech developed for the Xbox first so it rather makes sense that there's nothing there for going the other direction -- it's just not part of the consideration.

As for writing, the CPU generally isn't involved in that particular transaction anyway unless you're processing the data to be written somehow (like compressing it).
 

Klockwerk

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There is also now a T705, which not only maxes out pcie5 for sustained transfers, it cuts read latency substantially over other current drives. That should be more noticeable in a wider variety of tasks (the T700 is only slightly faster in latency than other good drives otherwise, so you need a sustained transfer to see a big difference).

Amazon has a sale on that right now as well. It is more expensive, but at the $514 they currently want (list price $689) the only thing stopping me from getting one is that I would need to retrieve my computer from my desk (not easy through the catproofing), take it apart (remove a 4090 and a D-15 to get access to the slots), and transfer drive contents. I am fairly busy this week, and need that computer, so it seems like a bad idea for that reason.

It will likely become an upgrade as soon as someone comes out with 128GB DDR5 modules (unregistered), which will mean removing at least the CPU heatsink anyway.

I wish they tested the 4TB version in reviews, but those reviews are usually a little bit hard to find (the larger capacity T700 is substantially faster than the smaller ones, I do not know if that holds here as well)


Edit:
That is getting close to RAM latency, although in terms of latency it is also going to matter quite a bit how that read is handled in software. I suppose that is what DirectStorage is about (it is still a few orders of magnitude off, but that means making several copies in the driver and application becomes noticeable, especially if unpredicted page walks are involved in the general bookkeeping the driver must do, and in terms of bandwidth you can run out if you are not careful such that the speed mostly comes down to memory copies in software... none of that is great for systems from yesteryear designed to cache a spinning hard drive, as they tend to do a lot of copying and caching you would not want here, and are designed for compatibility more than anything else).

The difference between using MapViewOfFile and ReadFile can be a big one here, as in most cases ReadFile either does enough copying or has enough memory accesses in its logic to make RAM the limiting factor on the disk read. I have not tried DirectStorage, but it is supposedly designed to get everything possible out of the way, so the requests can go to firmware and end up in memory in bulk, with little extra handling. I did not see write support though, which is kind of a big deal for non game use.
The problem that DirectStorage fixes is moving large chunks of data quick from from disk to where it can be processed to put out an image.
Going the other way, writing data to disk is probably as efficient as it's going to get, and isn't a big showstopper for the Xbox - there's no need.
 

cerberusTI

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DirectStorage was tech developed for the Xbox first so it rather makes sense that there's nothing there for going the other direction -- it's just not part of the consideration.

As for writing, the CPU generally isn't involved in that particular transaction anyway unless you're processing the data to be written somehow (like compressing it).
The problem that DirectStorage fixes is moving large chunks of data quick from from disk to where it can be processed to put out an image.
Going the other way, writing data to disk is probably as efficient as it's going to get, and isn't a big showstopper for the Xbox - there's no need.
Writes may need this too. Usually they are a bit slower, but they are still getting there. We probably cannot really get write latency numbers without a better API, but it is not far off the read speed for bulk transfers, and it would not surprise me if the API call was a big contribution to total time.

The issue is that when we are looking at a time of 25 microseconds or so for the entire read under DirectStorage, that is only about 1000 memory accesses in total. If using something like ReadFile instead the process of putting that call together within the application, making the system call, checking permissions, finding the open handle, and notifying the application takes more than that, more time was spent in software than waiting on the read from the drive. Even if it is less, it can easily be a big chunk of the total time.

The new API does not have anything to do with games directly (it just allows you to specify a bunch of reads from disk to memory in a long queue). It makes sense that they introduced it for a gaming console they control (they can ensure it has an SSD, the speed of that SSD, and games are applications which can likely take advantage of this), but it also looks like this is intended to replace some of the older file functions which assumed waiting time was basically infinite compared to processing time for the driver.

It is getting to the point where they need to care about how much that driver (and any OS bookkeeping) does, and existing code is likely not great for that. 1000 memory accesses is not many, especially if you have any compatibility concerns in that code.
 
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jarablue

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I was having an arguement with an internet user about optane vs a 990pro nvme gen 4 ssd. I was telling him for a win11 box and only gaming and normal app loading, there would probably be no unbelievably big delta in performance that is visually apparent. I get 1,550,000 random read iops on my 990pro.

He was arguing me that you would def notice in a win11 gaming box.

Am I wrong? I have read people with optance that said on normal builds there was pretty much no diff between it and a gen3 ssd.

I could be wrong but I am thinking placebo at best.

What do you guys think? No benchmarking...just normal win11 app loading and games.
 

hansmuff

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I was having an arguement with an internet user about optane vs a 990pro nvme gen 4 ssd. I was telling him for a win11 box and only gaming and normal app loading, there would probably be no unbelievably big delta in performance that is visually apparent. I get 1,550,000 random read iops on my 990pro.
If you google around for benchmarks, you will find disciplines where the Optane blows away everything.
The 1,550,000 IOPS are in a load scenario like QD32T16 which on a regular desktop just doesn't happen. Look at QD1T1 and all of a sudden the 990PRO (and most others) look a lot more humble compared to Optane. That's where it shone.

I like my Samsung SSDs I have oodles of em, but Optane is a different sphere. I'm sad it wasn't viable for the market, I hope something like it comes back and is a little more affordable, I'd be willing to pay a premium, but I don't want it tied to an Intel platform.
 
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Ardax

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Look at QD1T1 and all of a sudden the 990PRO (and most others) look a lot more humble compared to Optane. That's where it shone.

Yup. Especially with the 4 KB reads (the common page size for Windows). These graphs are pretty telling. I'd love to sit down at a system with one of these bad boys for a while.

WfQMcX7V2r7eQSShsUFmeY.png


kDGrTZyAjgrv2daPAZLgJQ.png
 
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jarablue

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I know benchmarks are higher but real world performance like opening apps and game loading. I read several people state that there is pretty much no difference between optane and a wd770 in their system.

Like if I click on edge, will it noticeably be faster opening up? Or game loading other than half a second more? From what I read, it points to no.

I'm thinking of getting one but if I only see performance increases in software benchmarks and not real world stuff I use in win11. I see no point in pursuing it. The drive will be going into a win11 desktop gaming rig. So no server stuff, database stuff or video encoding. No benchmarking. Just everyday game/web browsing use.
 
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