If you're planing on using it as a Linux machine, and you can pick one up at a good price, then they're well-built physical machines that are nice to look at and touch. No reason not to. If you're planning on running macOS at all, then I wouldn't. Even late models will lose support shortly (maybe 2, no more than 3 years I think) and I won't take a not-current machine on the internet (I do have an old iMac that sits connected locally as an iTunes end point only, so might be able to be repurposed for some other task).
Used Intel Macs, usable on a budget or not?
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I have now several computers running Linux at the moment, so i do not plan to run Linux on a Mac. My dumpster one will be replaced during the year as well as the CPU just is not powerful enough i think to warrant a 95W TDP. The experience so far has been great, and there is nothing i miss with Windows these days.
I am just sure that i will not be a Windows user in the future, but if my daily and most important computer will run Mac OS or Linux in some form is yet to be determined, but i might also use both of them. My thoughts currently it to buy an M+ computer during the year in some form, and if the experience is not what i thought it would be, i am not going to lose much by selling it, maybe even break even.
I am just sure that i will not be a Windows user in the future, but if my daily and most important computer will run Mac OS or Linux in some form is yet to be determined, but i might also use both of them. My thoughts currently it to buy an M+ computer during the year in some form, and if the experience is not what i thought it would be, i am not going to lose much by selling it, maybe even break even.
Over the past years I’ve grown quite dissatisfied with Apple. But I don’t think I’m going to leave the Mac very soon. Despite the combination of neglect and a constant barrage of changes, usually without benefit, but with new bugs, I don’t think there’s anything better as an interface between I/O devices and software.
I spent the entire 1990s on the Amiga, which coupled a simple GUI with a powerful command line. For work I used all kinds of crap, from DOS to Windows 3.0 to Linux to classic MacOS to IRIX to Solaris to Windows NT on a DEC Alpha. And lots of FreeBSD.
And then in 2002 I discovered the Mac: again, simple GUI en powerful command line. In the intermediate decades, I’ve completely internalized Apple’s approach to the keyboard, which makes much more sense than Windows. And Linux takes most of their UI cues from old versions of Windows...
Also, the Mac GUI is much cleaner than any version of Windows, and also than any Linux GUI I’ve ever worked with (I currently have a Raspberry Pi 400 sitting on my other desk and again, looks like warmed over Windows XP). However, I haven’t explored alternative Linux desktops. There’s probably a few nice ones out there, although application chrome probably won’t be as clean as with the best Mac apps.
However...
The command line on the Mac has severely atrophied over the years. It used to come with all the expected tools. But then they started removing stuff. I mean, who needs telnet or FTP? I like writing my scripts in PHP, but that’s now gone. And for instance the default shell, bash, went to GPLv3 so they never updated it past 2007 and made zsh the default shell a few years ago.
There used to be a time when MacOS had a great ecosystem of best in class native apps. But I can’t remember the last time I found a new native app for the Mac. Apple isn’t doing itself any favors here by having such weird APIs for building GUI apps. So no wonder stuff keeps moving to the web or compatibility layers to make non-native apps run on the Mac.
So...
I’ve pretty much given up on the command line on the Mac. I now have that Pi, and it’s amazing what it can do at 10% the CPU speed of my Intel Mac Mini. I think it even runs Docker about the same speed and barely using any memory, unlike Docker on the Mac.
I do have to figure out a way to use graphical Linux apps with my Apple-style keyboard, though. Maybe if there’s another pandemic I’m going to make keyboard drivers for Linux that exactly mimic the Apple behavior... But even then I probably wouldn’t want to give up Keynote on the Mac.
Once you get that Mac, I’m interested to hear your comments on the GUI and keyboard differences between Windows/Linux and the Mac.
I spent the entire 1990s on the Amiga, which coupled a simple GUI with a powerful command line. For work I used all kinds of crap, from DOS to Windows 3.0 to Linux to classic MacOS to IRIX to Solaris to Windows NT on a DEC Alpha. And lots of FreeBSD.
And then in 2002 I discovered the Mac: again, simple GUI en powerful command line. In the intermediate decades, I’ve completely internalized Apple’s approach to the keyboard, which makes much more sense than Windows. And Linux takes most of their UI cues from old versions of Windows...
Also, the Mac GUI is much cleaner than any version of Windows, and also than any Linux GUI I’ve ever worked with (I currently have a Raspberry Pi 400 sitting on my other desk and again, looks like warmed over Windows XP). However, I haven’t explored alternative Linux desktops. There’s probably a few nice ones out there, although application chrome probably won’t be as clean as with the best Mac apps.
However...
The command line on the Mac has severely atrophied over the years. It used to come with all the expected tools. But then they started removing stuff. I mean, who needs telnet or FTP? I like writing my scripts in PHP, but that’s now gone. And for instance the default shell, bash, went to GPLv3 so they never updated it past 2007 and made zsh the default shell a few years ago.
There used to be a time when MacOS had a great ecosystem of best in class native apps. But I can’t remember the last time I found a new native app for the Mac. Apple isn’t doing itself any favors here by having such weird APIs for building GUI apps. So no wonder stuff keeps moving to the web or compatibility layers to make non-native apps run on the Mac.
So...
I’ve pretty much given up on the command line on the Mac. I now have that Pi, and it’s amazing what it can do at 10% the CPU speed of my Intel Mac Mini. I think it even runs Docker about the same speed and barely using any memory, unlike Docker on the Mac.
I do have to figure out a way to use graphical Linux apps with my Apple-style keyboard, though. Maybe if there’s another pandemic I’m going to make keyboard drivers for Linux that exactly mimic the Apple behavior... But even then I probably wouldn’t want to give up Keynote on the Mac.
Once you get that Mac, I’m interested to hear your comments on the GUI and keyboard differences between Windows/Linux and the Mac.
I am not familiar with what you mean when you talk about the keyboard differences between Mac and others. I am not using shortcuts much myself to be honest if that is what you are referring to.
I started on the Amiga 500 myself, and had a quick stop with Windows 95 before i used BeOS for many years after which i still miss in many ways. Windows 7 was the pinnacle of Windows in my opinion.
Mint with the Cinnamon desktop i really appreciate, it's coherent and it works very well. A new version is imminent any day as i understand.
I am curious as well how it will be to use, and i will test it thoroughly for sure, and i am glad it's not a mess between 3 decades worth of UI style like Windows.
I started on the Amiga 500 myself, and had a quick stop with Windows 95 before i used BeOS for many years after which i still miss in many ways. Windows 7 was the pinnacle of Windows in my opinion.
Mint with the Cinnamon desktop i really appreciate, it's coherent and it works very well. A new version is imminent any day as i understand.
I am curious as well how it will be to use, and i will test it thoroughly for sure, and i am glad it's not a mess between 3 decades worth of UI style like Windows.
Yeah, my 2018 mac mini is fine for the (rather limited) uses I put it to, but the fan noise is definitely noticeable. Whereas my M1 Pro MBP (work laptop) handles way more with less fuss.
That part is mostly a case of control on Win/Lin vs the command key on the Mac. But there is so much else because:
For instance, yesterday I had to do a bunch of debugging because on monday I’m teaching a training course where people need to log in to virtual routers over the web. (For some reason offering them access through a serial port doesn’t work as well as it used to when I started doing this training course in 2003.)
The web<->terminal thingy (GoTTY) has several ways to handle control-C. Since the dawn of time (well, of ASCII) that has been ETX (end of text) and used to interrupt running programs. But then the genius designers of Windows thought something-Z, -X, -C and -V was a good idea, but with the keyboards of the time lacking a "meta" key, they overloaded control with that function so now control-C is copy. Then they added a Windows key but never took advantage of that to clean up this mess.
Now I’m sure some of my students use Windows and they’ll need to both copy text and interrupt stuff running on the virtual routers. I just couldn’t get this to work despite several configuration options being available. Now that part turned out to be the MacOS Catalina version of the Safari browser that apparently doesn’t pass along the control key being pressed here... (All other browsers / Safari versions have no trouble with this.) But it was all caused by the boneheaded Windows design.
(My solution was to have text selection automatically trigger a copy action so control-C is free for ETX but keep control-V for paste.)
Ok, got that rant out of my system.
On the Mac, such troubles are basically impossible because only key combos that include the command key (⌘) trigger any type of command. The control and alt keys can be used with the command key, but on their own they do one thing: alt produces accents and special characters (and you have an alt key on both sides of the space bar! No AltGr nonsense) while control can do its thing on the command line and in text editing and some navigation. (Although on many keyboards they call alt "option" for unknown reasons.)
What makes the Mac keyboard much more productive for me is all the little things that it lets me do, like navigating text, moving between windows, tabs and desktop "spaces". Using a single app on another system is not an issue for me (save for my normal ⌘C / ⌘V not working), but getting work done switching between a bunch of apps on a non-Mac system feels like walking through molasses.
Now of course I have a keyboard and a mouse with a bunch of customized functions, so an out of the box Mac wouldn’t be great either.
I also like that you can assign keyboard shortcuts to pretty much any app menu item. So I can assign Command-Option-B to create a bullet list starting with the standard round bullet in Scrivener when the app itself does not have a shortcut for it.
But I also re-map the Command and Control keys to each other since IO don't like the locations for text editing shortcuts like Command-C, -V, and -X. Those letters are too close to the Command key to be comfortable for me on the laptop keyboard or on my MX Keys.
But I also re-map the Command and Control keys to each other since IO don't like the locations for text editing shortcuts like Command-C, -V, and -X. Those letters are too close to the Command key to be comfortable for me on the laptop keyboard or on my MX Keys.
If you just want a budget mac desktop, and a single display out is acceptable, M1 MacBook airs with broken screens can be had much cheaper than equivalent M1 minis.
I kind of wish zsh was the default on more Linux distros. I can’t think of anything that bash can do that zsh can’t, but zsh has so many quality of life improvements.
The big one for me is changing directories without cd. It seems like it’s not a big deal until you really get used to it, then typing cd feels like the end of the world.
Prompt configuration feels more natural.
Command completion. <3
Plus, most Bash stuff still works fine in zsh. The worst thing about zsh is that you’ll inevitably end up in a bash shell and wonder why it nothing is working correctly.
The reason isn't unknown; It's always been Option on Mac keyboards since the original. Apple started printing a small Alt on it in the 90s as well for PC compatibility software, but it's always been option. Some keyboards will print the symbol only and have a small "alt" in the upper left corner, but that is an additional label. It should never be referred to as Alt, unless you use it as an actual "alt" key in software that recognizes option as alt (e.g. a VM or a command line).
/pedant
And before some other pedant tries to come in and out-pedant me, option was never closed-Apple; the original Mac keyboards printed the word "option" and closed Apple was on the previous Apple IIe/c keyboards. AFAIK no closed-apples ever showed up on ADB or Macintosh keyboards, even though open-Apple appeared on the command key. There were no standards for open/closed Apple's functions in the Apple II era, so it doesn't map up quite the same until the IIc introduced MouseKeys. Open-Apple often found the same use as the command key today, but that was more a de-facto thing than decreed by the OS like on the macintosh.
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Hm, looks like I was wrong in thinking that keyboards from other vendors back around 1983 when Apple was designing the Mac did have alt keys. I have an IBM Model M (released 1984) and a DEC LK401 (not sure when that one was released, but I doubt it was before 1984) which both have alt keys, but their predecessors, the Model F and LK201, respectively, didn’t.
Anyway, weird that the entire industry adopted the alt key within a year or so (IBM, DEC, Commodore Amiga) but Apple went its own way naming that key and to this day keeps "option" alive, even though it does the exact same thing as for instance the alt key on an Amiga.
Seems like Apple has been all over the place since then:
- 2007 MacBook Pro, with either a Dutch or an international English keyboard: ctrl - alt / ⌥ - open apple / ⌘
- 2013 MacBook Pro, with either a Dutch or an international English keyboard: ctrl - alt / ⌥ - cmd / ⌘
- 2016 MacBook Pro, with an American keyboard: control - alt / option - ⌘ / command
It is curious that they’ve included "alt" pretty consistently and way back before VMs on a Mac was a thing. They also didn’t add the Windows logo to the command key...
I’m not taking language style advice from Apple. If it looks like an alt key, swims like an alt key and quacks like an alt key, then it’s an alt key in my book.
Actually I've been working on a keyboard layout that lets you type pretty much all characters used in pretty much all languages that are written in the latin script (so tons of accents) and I figured out a way to make that the same on Mac and Windows. However, Windows people might be mightily confused when their alt and AltGr keys then both work like Apple alt/option keys...
The Model M was designed in 1983-84, but most records show that it shipped in 1985, after the Macintosh. The Amiga 1000 came after the Macintosh as well. I wouldn't want to definitively state it without doing more research, but the Macintosh could have a credible claim to being the first computer with the idea of an option modifier key that wasn't a command executing key. The Alto and Star didn't really have an option or alt key either, though they had several function keys that were explicitly labeled (versus having F1, 2, etc).
There's a variety of "meta" keys that existed on some keyboards and not others. Many DEC terminal keyboards were missing them entirely, but they often had the Compose Character key. It's more like AltGr (or the option key's modifier status) but last time I used a DEC terminal it didn't support command chording like Option or Shift. Commodore had their own set of meta keys, Sun and Lisp machines had a Meta key, and so on. NeXT had Command and alternate. Atari only had Control. The AT&T Unix PC had some funky modifiers but they were also more in the vein of Function keys.
The original Macintosh keyboards didn't have a Control key, either. Control came later with the advent of ADB keyboards (because the IIGS needed Control, and the Mac for A/UX). Lisa had a Command key (with the word Command written on it) and no Control or Option keys. Control for years did pretty much nothing on the classic Macintosh except for rare circumstances. It didn't see more use until Mac OS X.
Apple shipped DOS compatibility cards in the 1990s and software emulation (like SoftPC and SoftWindows) were available then as well. It was also used as an Alt or Meta in A/UX for command line environments that expected an Alt. It's not a coincidence that Apple Extended Keyboards started shipping around the same time as A/UX with Alt printed on the option key. Sun and SGI were using Alt keys at the time.
The Option symbol is more commonly featured on international keyboards probably to avoid excessive localization effort. The symbol dates back to original international Mac keyboards as well (for the 128/512k and Plus), likely for the same reason. It's been called Option for 40 years, Alt can get off its lawn.
The problem is that it doesn't; Alt in Windows (and other environments) often serves double duty as a command execution key and as a modifier key. Option on the Mac should generally never execute a command unless used with a chord with the command key or a function key. This can obviously be broken with manual mappings or by aggressive software that don't obey HIG, but the average Mac user expects Option to behave in a specific way that Alt on windows does not. That's what makes it an Option key (along with its function as a secondary shift key). I won't begrudge you for calling it an alt because old habits die hard, but the key is officially Option and there definitely are reasons as to why it's called option. Because it's not Alt.
My data points:
2013 MacBook Air stopped using it long ago, can’t cope with office work. Gave it to sprog to use as homework computer.
2015 MacBook Pro 15”. World’s best laptop when it came out. Still pretty good because it was the last model without the terrible new butterfly keyboard. I replaced ancient Apple SSD with a modern SSD for a remarkable speed upgrade. Keep it as a spare, sprog isn’t allowed to touch it. Haven’t used it for a year. Struggles with Office365 when all apps are open, especially OneDrive. Will give to sprog this summer as an upgrade.
2017 MacBook Pro 15” (from employer). I do most of my work on this while it is plugged into two external screens. Copes with full o365 suite fine. Occasionally chugs under heavy load. I take care not to have too many tabs and apps open at the same time. Requires a reboot every couple of weeks. Is a better computer than what 99% of the staff at my employers have, who constantly struggle with their under-specced but brand new PC laptops while asking me how I cope with my ‘ancient’ laptop.
I use employer’s outdated 2014 iMac 27” as a superb 5K screen for the MacBook Pro 2017. I could get the company to buy me a M-series MacBook, but it wouldn’t be able to run the iMac 5K as an external screen, and my employers would never buy me a modern screen of the same quality.
2023 Mac Mini M2 Pro. Mine. My work from home computer. Superb. Handles everything without sweating. Don’t think I’ve been able to get the CPU above 10% load.
I work on alternate days with the M2 Pro at home and the 2017 MacBook Pro in the office, and while yes in a blind test I could tell the difference easily just by opening lots of apps, for practical purposes the 2017 MBP covers 95% of what I do, which is essentially office work with the whole o365 suite open plus many browser tabs plus Zoom plus FaceTime.
Just a datapoint for the OP. I’d still go for a M1 if possible, but the late model high-end Intel Macs are still decent beasts, especially the Mac Minis and the MacBook Pros. (but forget gaming). I’d be a bit less keen on the iMacs as they are bigger and bulkier and harder to repurpose.
2013 MacBook Air stopped using it long ago, can’t cope with office work. Gave it to sprog to use as homework computer.
2015 MacBook Pro 15”. World’s best laptop when it came out. Still pretty good because it was the last model without the terrible new butterfly keyboard. I replaced ancient Apple SSD with a modern SSD for a remarkable speed upgrade. Keep it as a spare, sprog isn’t allowed to touch it. Haven’t used it for a year. Struggles with Office365 when all apps are open, especially OneDrive. Will give to sprog this summer as an upgrade.
2017 MacBook Pro 15” (from employer). I do most of my work on this while it is plugged into two external screens. Copes with full o365 suite fine. Occasionally chugs under heavy load. I take care not to have too many tabs and apps open at the same time. Requires a reboot every couple of weeks. Is a better computer than what 99% of the staff at my employers have, who constantly struggle with their under-specced but brand new PC laptops while asking me how I cope with my ‘ancient’ laptop.
I use employer’s outdated 2014 iMac 27” as a superb 5K screen for the MacBook Pro 2017. I could get the company to buy me a M-series MacBook, but it wouldn’t be able to run the iMac 5K as an external screen, and my employers would never buy me a modern screen of the same quality.
2023 Mac Mini M2 Pro. Mine. My work from home computer. Superb. Handles everything without sweating. Don’t think I’ve been able to get the CPU above 10% load.
I work on alternate days with the M2 Pro at home and the 2017 MacBook Pro in the office, and while yes in a blind test I could tell the difference easily just by opening lots of apps, for practical purposes the 2017 MBP covers 95% of what I do, which is essentially office work with the whole o365 suite open plus many browser tabs plus Zoom plus FaceTime.
Just a datapoint for the OP. I’d still go for a M1 if possible, but the late model high-end Intel Macs are still decent beasts, especially the Mac Minis and the MacBook Pros. (but forget gaming). I’d be a bit less keen on the iMacs as they are bigger and bulkier and harder to repurpose.
How are you using the iMac as an external display for the MacBook?
Yes correct. Took me a lot of fiddling (and finding that Duet Display and Luna both don’t cut it) and about £70 in high spec cables and adaptors to make it work, but works fine now.
I keep two Apple wireless keyboards at work: one is paired with the iMac & is just to press the TDM combination keys to allow the MBP to take it over then goes back into my drawer; and the other keyboard is paired with the MBP. Luckily my mouse is a Logitech Master MX3 and able to pair over Bluetooth with several computers at the same time.
Right. I did some more digging (deskthority is helpful here), and it turns out the original IBM PCs came with keyboards that sported both control and alt. And I’m pretty sure control was already (almost) standard on CP/M computers in the 1970s and it was also a common key on terminals, letting you type the ASCII control characters with control and (mostly) the letter keys. Interestingly, CP/M was highly hardware agnostic and many keyboards used with it didn’t have cursor keys, so you’d have to use control combinations for that, too. And no function keys. So you had to control functions in a program like WordStar with control + letter combinations.
A decade or so later, WordPerfect on a PC would use the function keys, sometimes in combination with shift, control or alt, for this.
Interestingly, the original Mac lacked both function keys and control, but added a command key, and indeed, the Mac option key did something different than the DOS alt key.
So I guess that makes the Amiga the first computer to have the entire modern set of modifier keys: a meta key* (like command/windows), and alt/option key for typing extra characters and accents, the old control key and of course shift.
* actually two, as the left and right Amiga keys do different things.
Ah, right. That makes sense. And of course control saw more use with the advent of MacOS X because of its Unix underpinnings.
Right. The Datamaster had an Alt key (and no control key, but a key labeled CMD) that became the Model F. The logic behind the Mac's modifier keys (both Command and Option) were to eliminate the chaos that function keys and control keys had wrought. Larry Tesler and Bruce Tognazzi put a lot of work into defining these early behaviors that defined an operating environment versus a PC that does whatever a particular program wants to do. Depending on which program you were using on a PC you never knew what Alt or Ctrl would do. On the Mac it was made abundantly clear: Command is for Commands, Option is for modifiers.
IBM actually tried to put forward a standard method of operation for keyboard shortcuts in the later 1980s (which Windows tried to obey to a certain degree and then eventually abandoned) called Common User Access. If you ever wondered where Alt-F4 came from, that's it.
People also liked using control in classic Mac OS to assign custom user macros with stuff like QuicKeys. But the most common use for ctrl in the classic Mac OS days was ⌘-ctrl-power key to give it a hard reboot.
Anyway, let's call this one quits and get back to the topic. Hopefully the OP has success finding a new-to-them Mac.
Using OCLP, getting an old Mac to run the latest version of MacOS is not terribly difficult. If the old Mac doesn't have an SSD, then it might not be much fun. With an SSD, an old iMac or MacBookPro can be a solid machine. It won't have the snappiness of a Mx machine, but it will be totally usable and give you a good idea about some of a Mac environment is like. My at work machine is a 2015 iMac 27", with a 1 TB drive, 32GB Ram, with an external 27" monitor and a "third" monitor that is a extended display 2013 iMac 27" (running the latest OS).
[It would / will cost a fair bit to replace this set up.]
[It would / will cost a fair bit to replace this set up.]
Amen, brother.
That said, please allow me to gently but most respectfully attempt to out-pedant you...
You are absolutely correct that the original 1984 Mac keyboard featured only Option and Command keys.
No keys with Apples to be found here:
However, the Open and Closed Apple keys did not begin life on the IIe or IIc, but rather... the 1981 Apple ///.
Behold, Open and Closed Apple keys immediately next to one another, a caps lock key (this being the first Apple to natively support lower-case characters), and four glorious pressure sensitive arrow keys. You read that right, pushing down further on these keys caused them to repeat faster, making your cursor zip across the screen. A real quality-of-life innovation for its time.
For reference, a contemporaneous Apple II+ (1979) keyboard looked like this:
Eventually the IIe arrived in 1983, repositioning the Open and Closed Apple keys to opposite sides of the spacebar.
Curiously, the 1983 Lisa included both Option and a single Apple key, though it was printed as a solid Apple. Note the lack of arrow keys, a decision both shared with and preceding the original Macintosh.
And yes, Open Apple did eventually share a key with Command for many, many years, starting with Apple's ADB keyboards.
Fun fact, this did not begin on a Macintosh. Instead that honor belongs to:
The Apple IIGS keyboard.
The IIGS being both Apple's first ADB-based and platinum-colored computer. Yes, the legendary industrial design ushered in by the Macintosh II and SE was, actually, first introduced by the last great Apple II.
<FIN>
Hello fellow pedant, I will recommend you re-read my previous post, because I didn't say that the Apple IIe/c introduced the open/closed Apple keys, only that they appeared on them previously. Even then, open/closed Apple on the Apple III do not correspond to command/option just as they don't on the IIe/c: available keys that Apple kinda said "Well, use open apple for your app commands and leave closed apple available for user commands." (see SOS/Apple II human interface notes).Amen, brother.
That said, please allow me to gently but most respectfully attempt to out-pedant you...
However, the Open and Closed Apple keys did not begin life on the IIe or IIc, but rather... the 1981 Apple ///.
View attachment 82186
Behold, Open and Closed Apple keys immediately next to one another, a caps lock key (this being the first Apple to natively support lower-case characters), and four glorious pressure sensitive arrow keys. You read that right, pushing down further on these keys caused them to repeat faster, making your cursor zip across the screen. A real quality-of-life innovation for its time.
ALL THAT SAID, pressure sensitive arrow keys are something I wish got more traction.
(please take this post in the semi-serious riposte it is intended to be, you are correct that I didn't call out the Apple III, but its omission didn't change the thrust of my point, I concede that bit and agree to a truce so as to avoid tyranny yellow)
This is a Mac XL / Lisa II keyboard from 1984 and later, which was introduced after the Macintosh. The original Lisa 1 only had a COMMAND key (with the word printed as such) and lacked an option key. But since so many Lisas were upgraded to Lisa 2s / Mac XLs...
Yes, I mentioned the IIGS ADB keyboard and its keys. However, I'll remind you that Snow White is the design language, not platinum, and platinum is one of the two colors it comes in. The IIGS introduced the platinum color. The Snow White design language debuted with the IIc (which was then further refined by the IIGS, then the Mac II and SE). Whether "platinum" counts as a separate design language is probably quibble-able; but it's hard to argue that, aside from the color being slightly different platinum is pretty much the same cues and language as Snow White. AppleDesign (the book) talks about the move from Snow White/Platinum to Espresso when Robert Brunner started Apple's internal industrial design group. It's a great read, highly recommended.
And if someone comes in here trying to go "The IIGS woulda been great if Steve Jobs didn't hold back the CPU!" I have an hour-long dissertation in the wings about that myth.
(spoiler alert: he didn't)
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Aha! No, none of this changes the thrust of your points, especially about the genius design of Option as an entity distinct from Command and a very important, subtle innovation.
But obviously I was mostly using your post as launching pad for my trip down memory lane…
How certain are you about that? I’d run downstairs to double-check my Lisa, but look there’s this:
Relax, I never called platinum a design language, and I chose to omit the IIc most intentionally.
The singular and beautiful Apple IIc, along with its adorable monochrome display and stand, is considered the only pure Snow White computer released by Apple. There’s also a lovely Apple modem in Snow White, the IIc’s infamous and very rare LCD display, and, arguably, the original LaserWriter.
Quibbleable for sure. The platinum era of Apple‘s designs introduced notably reduced edge and corner radii. It’s a more buttoned-up look, and less whimsical than the IIc. IMHO
Interesting! I’ve never heard that particular red herring.And if someone comes in here trying to go "The IIGS woulda been great if Steve Jobs didn't hold back the CPU!" I have an hour-long dissertation in the wings about that myth.
And a hat-tip to you and your fastidious riposte.
I went from a 2019 16 core, 64GB RAM RackMac to a M1 Mac Studio Ultra. No way I will ever go back. I didn't need the PCIe slots except for video cards, the M1 Ultra has enough power to drive what I need with I/O left over. The 2019 has been regulated to running VMWare for some older OSs with some applications I want to use and as my home automation server. It's in a wiring closet, so noise isn't a fact (although to be fair - that system was really quiet for an intel).
Once again the duel of pedantry leaves the pedants in a draw.
I was fairly certain, because I had recently used a Lisa 1 alongside a Xerox Star, and I had filmed this encounter! A Lisa keyboard is one of the few Apple keyboards I lack in my collection. So I went back and reviewed my filmed footage, and sure enough... that Lisa had an option key! I must have misremembered it because there were several other old and very weird keyboards I used during that visit. And if you look at one of the launch press photos with Steve, sure enough...
That is indeed the Lisa keyboard with the two keys by the spacebar, which matches up with the keyboard from earlier. It is in fact the Lisa that gets credit for introducing Option. You win this round, Bonusround! I have been successfully out-pedanted. And because I hate being wrong, I humbly accept your correction with the interest in accuracy in which you presented it.
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We may be far far far afield of the original thread topic, but this is the best exchange the Ach has seen in a very long time. Keep it going!
As I implied with my previous reply, 5k iMacs don't support Target Display mode at all, so I am entirely confused here. If you're using the native TDM, you don't have a 5k iMac. (and TDM from Thunderbolt iMacs doesn't work with Apple Silicon Macs, either.)
@redtomato says they have it working, either it's not a 5K, or they're a magician
I went back to have a look after this. Oops. Sorry, my ancient work imac looks exactly like a 5k mac but it’s not. Mea culpa.
In my defence I’ll say I haven’t logged into the iMac itself for about half a year despite using it 3x week so ‘About this Mac’ wasn’t available (can’t remember my password & couldn’t be arsed to sort it out last week just for this query) Also there doesn’t seem to be a serial number on the chassis to run a lookup on. I’m now a bit uncertain what year it was made, just that TDM works fine on it (with the occasional 9am hangup, fixed by a quick restart) and 2014 seems about right.
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Serial number is on the bottom of the foot (which is a weird place, considering on most iMacs the foot could be removed and replaced with a VESA mount).
We still use a 2017 iMac with an i5 chip for basic web browsing, movies/videos, social media and Google services. It's more than usable, though it's stuck at only being able to use the last macOS verion, Ventura.
It's fine as a secondary family computer but if you're looking to migrate from Windows (and take full advantage of power-hungry apps) I don't think that Intel-based Macs are a good value choice for longevity and OS/app support.
It's fine as a secondary family computer but if you're looking to migrate from Windows (and take full advantage of power-hungry apps) I don't think that Intel-based Macs are a good value choice for longevity and OS/app support.
The M-or-bust crowd is weird. My wife's using my old Intel MBP from 2018. It's perfectly fine, and it gives you a good sense of what living with macOS would be like. Is it as nice as my M3 MBP? No, but I didn't find that going from Intel to M3 really rocked my world all that much.
On the M3, the battery life is WAY better, the fan never comes on, and switching between apps might be a smidge quicker, but the moment-to-moment usability is basically the same. The smaller screen on my M3 MBP arguably made my life worse when I'm on the go more than the other things made it better. (It's probably a wash.)
Everyone likes to think they're doing heavy AV and that hardware really matters (and then most of them go buy the base amount of RAM ) or whatever, but that's just not the case. Modest CPU + adequate RAM + SSD gets you most of the way there. People are rarely ever compute-bound in their day-to-day lives.
On the M3, the battery life is WAY better, the fan never comes on, and switching between apps might be a smidge quicker, but the moment-to-moment usability is basically the same. The smaller screen on my M3 MBP arguably made my life worse when I'm on the go more than the other things made it better. (It's probably a wash.)
Everyone likes to think they're doing heavy AV and that hardware really matters (and then most of them go buy the base amount of RAM
) or whatever, but that's just not the case. Modest CPU + adequate RAM + SSD gets you most of the way there. People are rarely ever compute-bound in their day-to-day lives.First, that 2018 model is going to lose software support shortly and I would never recommend someone take a non-updated machine onto the internet. Second, performance increases are a lot easier to notice when you become adapted to the faster machine and go back to the slower one than you realize when you move from slower to faster. If you've been on your M3 for a while now, grab an older machine and do some similar tasks for 15 minutes and you'll really notice how much more sluggish it is.