Apple Should Buy Rivian To Save CarPlay

Vincent Hanna

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So the solution is to buy Rivian and become a direct competitor to all the other manufacturers? Make it a CarPlay showcase so others want to keep supporting it and keep giving it away to said competitors, or keep it to themselves as a differentiating feature of their own cars?
Buying Rivian would primarily be to showcase CarPlay 2.0/Industry-leading iPhone integration while still giving it away to anyone else who would adopt it.

But if no one does, the fallback is keeping it as a differentiating feature. I honestly think it would be worth the money/corporate investment just tp preserve the overall iPhone value proposition. Apple can literally not afford to get locked out of cars.

Hell, they built a freaking Hollywood movie studio and poured billions into it when they thought they MIGHT get locked out of streaming.
 

Honeybog

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Apple can literally not afford to get locked out of cars.

I mean… they definitely can.

Hell, they built a freaking Hollywood movie studio and poured billions into it when they thought they MIGHT get locked out of streaming.

Did they, though? Netflix was worried they’d get locked out of streaming, but Apple wasn’t in streaming before they got into streaming, and when they did, they went straight to in-house production.
 

ant1pathy

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They try to hold onto just the entertainment/nav screen for a few more years until they get shut out altogether? It doesn't matter how many would be buyers want (plain vanilla) CarPlay, if the industry unites to lock Apple out, then what are they going to do, never buy a new car again?
I feel like this assumes facts not present. GM is trying to lock Apple out. No one else seems to be following suit. I suppose if it turns out that GM can do this without consequence and hoover up all that sweet services money, then everyone else will jump on. If CarPlay is as popular / in demand as surveys indicate, GM will be punished by the market and have to walk back the decision and we return to broad CarPlay support. I think that any projection that relies on these fierce competitors in a razor thin margin space will voluntarily unite on anything (aside from resisting mandatory safety features or whatever, can always count on them to not spend money).
 

iPilot05

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So the solution is to buy Rivian and become a direct competitor to all the other manufacturers? Make it a CarPlay showcase so others want to keep supporting it and keep giving it away to said competitors, or keep it to themselves as a differentiating feature of their own cars? Or is this just purely to keep CarPlay development going, even if it's just for themselves in a massive new acquisition/money sink?
I can think of no better way to completely end all CarPlay support by manufacturers than to become a direct competitor by buying Rivian.

The CarPlay 2.0 demo video was pretty interesting especially how it challenges automakers to design their own interface for the dash gauges. The hard sell though is...why? An OEM would then have to design two systems, or at least put the effort into making CarPlay look like their in-house design. Certainly they won't be interested in making CarPlay better than their own effort, why would they? I can see a GM/Honda/BMW engineer simply saying "no thanks" and relegating CarPlay to the entertainment system, if that.
 

japtor

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Right, that's what I was getting at there. If the fear is that Apple would get locked out cause manufacturers don't want them to have more access, becoming a direct competitor seems like one of the fastest ways to make that outcome a reality. And for iPhone users, that'd end up locking out the vast majority of users from getting to use CarPlay. It feels like no real benefit to anyone but Rivian customers and investors.
 

papadage

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I would not buy a car without Carplay and Android Auto. I am a Carplay user now, but you never know in the future. The only features I want to be added are pretty banal:

  • If the car has an HUD, pass the phone's navigation directions to it. My CX-9 has an HUD, but it is just a glorified speedometer, with the lane change warnings being the only other function that matters to me. Having access to directions would allow me to drive without glancing at the center screen as often in unfamiliar areas.

  • More fine-grained audio controls. I want a couple of added buttons on the wheel or center console next to the jog dial to use the media app scrub playback functions without using the touch screen. I want to be able to skip forward 30 seconds in Overcast to skip commercials and back 15 to repeat something I may have missed. At the very least, make the next/previous controls assignable that function on one of the locations in the car, so I can skip forward to a new song or podcast episode using the jog dial left/right motion but use the steering wheel buttons for the more fine-grained skipping within a file.

  • Let me pin one more app on the left side of Carplay. I want to see the phone icon, navigation app, and two media apps above the app selection launcher. With that, I can always have a preferred music and podcast app visible.
I tried my car's native interface, and it's fucking awful compared to Carplay. I have not seen many that are much better. I also appreciate that my setup is portable across the three cars in the family (mine, my wife's, and my in-laws').
 

kefkafloyd

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  • If the car has an HUD, pass the phone's navigation directions to it. My CX-9 has an HUD, but it is just a glorified speedometer, with the lane change warnings being the only other function that matters to me. Having access to directions would allow me to drive without glancing at the center screen as often in unfamiliar areas.
You'll be very happy when you upgrade to the CX-90 (or a CX-70 and 50) which now support this. I don't know if it's been backported to the 2024 CX-30, but my 2022 CX-30 only shows Mazda's nav directions on hte HUD.

  • More fine-grained audio controls. I want a couple of added buttons on the wheel or center console next to the jog dial to use the media app scrub playback functions without using the touch screen. I want to be able to skip forward 30 seconds in Overcast to skip commercials and back 15 to repeat something I may have missed. At the very least, make the next/previous controls assignable that function on one of the locations in the car, so I can skip forward to a new song or podcast episode using the jog dial left/right motion but use the steering wheel buttons for the more fine-grained skipping within a file.
In my CX-30, if I press-and-hold the steering wheel controls up or down (or the volume jog dial left or right) it'll scrub forward or backwards (like dragging the playhead in the app or when using headphones). There's also a setting somewhere (either in CarPlay settings on the phone or elsewhere) to control whether the car's FF/RW count as "next/previous episode" or "skip 30 seconds/rewind 15) for spoken content. I'm pretty sure Overcast will obey that setting, because podcasts.app does.
 
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wrylachlan

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I also appreciate that my setup is portable across the three cars in the family (mine, my wife's, and my in-laws').
This is maybe the killer app for CarPlay. Our family has a mini-van for when we need to take the whole family and the dog and packing and whatnot, and a little Honda for when one or two of us is flitting around town. It’s a reasonable set up and I’d love it if both cars had the same interface.
 

papadage

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You'll be very happy when you upgrade to the CX-90 (or a CX-70 and 50) which now support this. I don't know if it's been backported to the 2024 CX-30, but my 2022 CX-30 only shows Mazda's nav directions on hte HUD.


In my CX-30, if I press-and-hold the steering wheel controls up or down (or the volume jog dial left or right) it'll scrub forward or backwards (like dragging the playhead in the app or when using headphones). There's also a setting somewhere (either in CarPlay settings on the phone or elsewhere) to control whether the car's FF/RW count as "next/previous episode" or "skip 30 seconds/rewind 15) for spoken content. I'm pretty sure Overcast will obey that setting, because podcasts.app does.

Good to know. I'll need to check those features out.

I am torn about my next car. I like the CX-90 PHEV a lot, and the deals may be great by the time my lease is up in November, but I really want to transition to a BEV, with the Kia EV9 being my leading candidate so far.
 

Louis XVI

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The part that I’m not seeing is evidence that CarPlay is remotely important enough to Apple to warrant the expense and hassle of buying and running a car company. It’s a cool value-add that makes iPhones and cars work better, but is it really that important?

I’ve never owned a car with CarPlay, because the cars I’ve wanted didn’t have it. While it would have been nice to have, my phone has played perfectly adequately with my cars via Bluetooth. I’ve really enjoyed CarPlay in equipped rental cars, but its absence hasn’t been a deal-breaker for the purchase of either cars or iPhones, and I’m not convinced that all that many people would come to a different conclusion.
 

papadage

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I had a custom mount installed for an iPad mini and jailbroke it to use with Carplay in my WRX STi. That's how much I wanted it.

I also know a lot of non-techies that find Carplay to be a killer feature since they never really need to lear how to use a car head unit. They set the climate controls to a comfie temperature and then use Carplay for everything else.
 
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jaberg

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If Apple’s wish is to promote CarPlay 2, I can think of better uses for whatever Rivian costs dollars to advance that goal. Buying Rivian sounds like another episode of Spend Tim Cook’s Money. Or perhaps fodder for Apple TV’s new animated What If… show. (I’m sure Disney won’t object to the appropriation.)
 
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jaberg

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I’m not convinced that all that many people would come to a different conclusion.
I’m not “many people”. I was briefly considering a grudging exception for a low-mileage Rivian — my Brother-In-Law had one at the time, and found the range for towing Bobcats and such between shop, home and cabin-under-construction one state over too limiting, particularly during our colder months. However, in general CarPlay (and heated seats front and rear) is table stakes for any new car purchase in this household.

My daily-driver bluetooth experience ranges from mediocre/sometimes infuriating (Acura and the aftermarket radio in the Land-Rover) to top-notch (Mercedes), plus a variety of rentals over the years. Even at its best, Bluetooth sucks once you’re used to plug-n-CarPlay. (Yes, I too hear shades of myself complaining about wireless internet speed on the airplane.)
 
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ant1pathy

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I’ve never owned a car with CarPlay, because the cars I’ve wanted didn’t have it. While it would have been nice to have, my phone has played perfectly adequately with my cars via Bluetooth. I’ve really enjoyed CarPlay in equipped rental cars, but its absence hasn’t been a deal-breaker for the purchase of either cars or iPhones, and I’m not convinced that all that many people would come to a different conclusion.
It's mentioned as a top, if not the top, feature by new car buyer surveys.

Add me on as an anecdote for "I will not buy a car without it". I cannot fathom how "bluetooth is fine!" because the feature set of CarPlay is much more about putting nav and media controls on the big center screen with bigger, easier to tap-at-a-glance targets. My current car is old and was a base model when new so it barely supports wired anything (I get an "iPod connected" popup on the teeny little screen). I have my phone in a CD-slot mount so it's in an accessible / visible area, but fiddling with it is far more fraught than when I'm in a CarPlay vehicle and it's the driver friendly touch targets and display.
 
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Louis XVI

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Well, looks like lots of folks here (and everywhere, going by surveys) find CarPlay to be more indispensable than I do. If that's the case, though, the exclusion of CarPlay seems like more of a car manufacturer's problem than an Apple problem. Apple should be able to wait it out until customer demand forces automakers to put CarPlay back into their cars, and Apple certainly doesn't need to be so desperate that it has to buy and run a car company just to provide CarPlay a home.
 

japtor

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This is maybe the killer app for CarPlay. Our family has a mini-van for when we need to take the whole family and the dog and packing and whatnot, and a little Honda for when one or two of us is flitting around town. It’s a reasonable set up and I’d love it if both cars had the same interface.
Yeah it's a great feature for multi car or multi driver families. It scales to benefit everything from a single driver with one car to multiple drivers with multiple cars.
It's mentioned as a top, if not the top, feature by new car buyer surveys.
To add to this, just figure that a lot of people don't actually give a damn about cars besides as a tool that lets them get around. Like reliability and comfort are probably pretty high on their requirements, and I'd say infotainment contributes to comfort in a sense.

I don't know if it's necessarily be a full on table stakes requirement, but I think it's a pretty damn sticky feature once someone has lived with it for a while...and that can be a long time considering how much time people spend in their cars over its lifetime. Infotainment is probably one of the most interacted with things in a car besides the car driving controls and A/C, so it can just get stickier and stickier for users over the years.

I'm sure I could do without it, but I'm also of the techie ilk that will begrudgingly deal with crap like that if necessary. A lot of people won't, especially when the majority of other competing cars on the market will give them what they want.
 
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Honeybog

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Well, looks like lots of folks here (and everywhere, going by surveys) find CarPlay to be more indispensable than I do. If that's the case, though, the exclusion of CarPlay seems like more of a car manufacturer's problem than an Apple problem. Apple should be able to wait it out until customer demand forces automakers to put CarPlay back into their cars, and Apple certainly doesn't need to be so desperate that it has to buy and run a car company just to provide CarPlay a home.

It’s definitely a carmaker issue. If I recall correctly, Toyota took a major hit in reliability surveys almost exclusively due to complaints about their infotainment system. In their case, they made CarPlay standard and even retrofitted it on older models for free.
 
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Exordium01

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Counterpoint.

Apple should buy Subaru!

Niche/fun car company. Good partnership with Toyota. Upcoming EV models.

It’s perfect!
This would probably save Toyota. From current trajectories, it looks like Toyota will be left in the past and Hyundai/Kia will become the dominant carmaker (assuming the Chinese EV companies are held off). The Toyota/Denso hardware and software is pretty shitty and is IMO the worst thing about Subarus.

I traded in an Outback for a Mustang Mach-E and couldn’t be happier.

The Western automakers are in the same boat Apple is in: a static and saturated market for their hardware. They have invested relatively little in production capacity or efforts to expand the market, preferring to chase margins with what capacity they do have by building ever-larger and more expensive trucks and SUVs, and leaving everyone else to buy used. Just like Apple, they are grasping at the "services" life preserver as their only hope for growth. They are mostly trying to sell those services through the dashboard, and of course the unimaginative MBA types don't understand why they have had such a hard time doing so (for the record, a combination of unintelligible user interface and uncompelling services). Not a single big one is going to give that up, which is why whole-dashboard CarPlay was doomed for the mass market the second it was announced.

The exceptions prove the rule. Porsche has turned itself into a Veblen good through a churn of endless nostalgia-inducing special editions and obscure "I've got 1 of 1!" options, and is so profitable and makes such un-car industry margins that it frankly doesn't need to chase in-dash services revenue. Aston Martin is desperate for survival and doesn't have the resources to design its own interface.
I’m not sure this is true. Honda is currently using GM’s Ultium platform and Toyota thought that FCEVs were somehow the better technology even though they still require large batteries that can charge quickly and deliver lots of instantaneous power. FCEVs still have battery-electric drivetrains so it’s really the worst of both worlds.

Ford is also selling a lot of EVs and the recent ~$6k price cuts showed that their cars were priced just slightly higher than people were willing to pay. Their financial hit has more to do with R&D and scaling issues and not gross margin. Meanwhile, they are bringing more technology in-house which will help GM.

I don’t know why anybody would buy a Rivian now that the Kia EV9 is out. Or why anybody would pick a Rivian pickup over a F150 Lightning. If the Lightning isn’t the better fit, you’re probably buying a truck as a fashion accessory.
 
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DrWebster

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Counterpoint.

Apple should buy Subaru!

Niche/fun car company. Good partnership with Toyota. Upcoming EV models.

It’s perfect!
Toyota is ruining Subaru and Apple buying it would only worsen things. What made Subaru fun was its lack of commodification, but that's quickly changing. The upcoming EV models are all based on Toyota's tech (because Subaru is too small to develop it on its own, same with Mazda who is also partnered with Toyota) but Toyota just doesn't want to be a BEV manufacturer. Apple would quickly get frustrated with such a relationship.
 
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Honeybog

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The fuel cell thing was dumb, but I’d be very surprised if Toyota wasn’t seriously laying the groundwork to be competitive in the BEV space. It’s the obvious next step and everyone knows it. The thing is, hybrids are paying off for them in a huge away (contributing $32bn in profit last year, a record), so it sort of makes sense that they’re not looking to immediately electrify everything.

For whatever reason, I see a metric ton of Rivians and Lucid Airs around me. I have to imagine that people buy them in part for the novelty, like Fiskers and Teslas 10-15 years ago. Oddly, the ones a rarely see are Taycans, even though I live in 911 central and Taycans are great looking.
 

targetnovember

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I don’t know why anybody would buy a Rivian now that the Kia EV9 is out. Or why anybody would pick a Rivian pickup over a F150 Lightning. If the Lightning isn’t the better fit, you’re probably buying a truck as a fashion accessory.
I can answer this, since we have a Rivian R1T. We had it before the EV9 was announced, but when the EV9 came out and reviews were published, my wife and I were able to talk about it. The Rivian is her vehicle, though, so these are probably her values and priorities.

The EV9 starts at a lower price but the most expensive ones, with AWD and bigger battery pack, is pretty close to an entry level R1S. Going with the R1S gets you a lot more power, and, we think, a better interior that feels nicer. I'm sure the EV9 interior materials is more appropriate for families and children, but we have no children or pet dogs. The base EV9 has something like 200 HP. It does not seem like it would be exciting to drive. All Rivians are exciting to drive.

Regarding R1T vs Lightning, modern pickups are huge. I don't want something the size of an F150, plus the Rivian's interior is much, much nicer. We only use the truck bed occasionally, so while it is small, it's fine. Maybe my wife did choose it as a fashion accessory (I really wanted the SUV) but she specifically wanted a truck bed of some sort instead. We got pre-order pricing years ago, so we got our "cheap". We haven't had to reevaluate value.

Her truck does not have CarPlay. My car does have it. The Rivian UI is pretty good and touch friendly, so it's not too bad it is missing, but doing more complicated things with the phone is annoying. If I'm driving it locally, I make sure my phone is paired and start audio before I depart. If it is on a long road trip, there's someone else in the car to take care of anything more complicated than the completely adequate media controls to pause, play, select next track, etc. My wife gladly trades CarPlay for over 800 HP, a truck bed, >300 miles range, her favorite color paint that's not too common on vehicles, a nice interior, and modern EV tech stuff. When I had a Mini Cooper, CarPlay was much more important since the built-in infotainment was so much worse.
 

targetnovember

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Green cars, best cars.
Yes, it's green. I'm glad her favorite color isn't yellow. It matches her green iPhone really well. I just looked in order to compare, and you can get an EV9 in "Ice Green" which is sort of sage colored, but darker green like British Racing Green, is best, so Rivian chromatic superiority over Kia is maintained.
 

papadage

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I can answer this, since we have a Rivian R1T. We had it before the EV9 was announced, but when the EV9 came out and reviews were published, my wife and I were able to talk about it. The Rivian is her vehicle, though, so these are probably her values and priorities.

The EV9 starts at a lower price but the most expensive ones, with AWD and bigger battery pack, is pretty close to an entry level R1S. Going with the R1S gets you a lot more power, and, we think, a better interior that feels nicer. I'm sure the EV9 interior materials is more appropriate for families and children, but we have no children or pet dogs. The base EV9 has something like 200 HP. It does not seem like it would be exciting to drive. All Rivians are exciting to drive.

Regarding R1T vs Lightning, modern pickups are huge. I don't want something the size of an F150, plus the Rivian's interior is much, much nicer. We only use the truck bed occasionally, so while it is small, it's fine. Maybe my wife did choose it as a fashion accessory (I really wanted the SUV) but she specifically wanted a truck bed of some sort instead. We got pre-order pricing years ago, so we got our "cheap". We haven't had to reevaluate value.

Her truck does not have CarPlay. My car does have it. The Rivian UI is pretty good and touch friendly, so it's not too bad it is missing, but doing more complicated things with the phone is annoying. If I'm driving it locally, I make sure my phone is paired and start audio before I depart. If it is on a long road trip, there's someone else in the car to take care of anything more complicated than the completely adequate media controls to pause, play, select next track, etc. My wife gladly trades CarPlay for over 800 HP, a truck bed, >300 miles range, her favorite color paint that's not too common on vehicles, a nice interior, and modern EV tech stuff. When I had a Mini Cooper, CarPlay was much more important since the built-in infotainment was so much worse.

The Rivian R1T starts at $71K, and the EV9 Land, which is faster than the top trim GT-LIne, can be bought for under $70K now and can go 0-60 in under 4.5 seconds. You can't fairly compare the performance of the entry-level EV9 and then use the price of the top-end one in the same comparison.
 
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targetnovember

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The Rivian R1T starts at $71K, and the EV9 Land, which is faster than the top trim GT-LIne, can be bought for under $70K now and can go 0-60 in under 4.5 seconds. You can't fairly compare the performance of the entry-level EV9 and then use the price of the top-end one in the same comparison.
I apologize. Instead I'll say that the base EV9 is exceptionally unexciting to drive, and that the base Rivian is more exciting than the top end EV9. My point in mentioning the base trim is that for the lower entry price of the Kia, you get less HP and a single motor. The Rivians cost more, but they are all AWD and have plenty of speed, at least, for the higher entry point.
 

Gandhim3

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This past weekend I did something crazy and (may be, in the future) incredibly stupid. I bought a pre-owned ’22 Lucid Air (the one with 512 mile range). Still has factory warranty for everything and high voltage system and powertrain. Has 16k miles and bought for $60k, clean carfax report.

Applied 3-4 over the air updates (my first car with that feature) and thanks to my home firewall logs I can see how much data and where data is is sent. And it’s a lot of data going both ways to and from the car to Lucid. But the data flows all indicate going to Lucid Motors.

on topic, Lucid enabled CarPlay in one of the updates and it works well for my needs. Would I miss it if it’s not there? Honestly, I do not know. i mainly use it for controlling music (I don’t listen to podcasts). It’s fine. the native interface and features are easy to view, clearly laid out, access, intuitive and easy to use. Even the navigation (in the city so far) works very well so that I did not feel the need to use CarPlay navigation. Contrast that with my wife’s ’21 Audi eTron Q8 BEV and we almost 100% use CarPlay for music and navigation because the native interface is a confusing mess.

other car companies are certainly capable.whether legacy markers like Chevy/GM or VW can do it is another matter.
 
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japtor

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Say what? If it weren't for my addiction to Waze, BMW's iDrive and navigation system is more than adequate, especially with a HUD.
Early iDrive was...something. I remember hearing/reading about it way back but recently saw a recent video review of an old BMW of that era (found it here). Best way I can describe it was that it seemed like a bizarro version of the touchscreen craze. Instead of annoyingly cramming too many features onto a touchscreen, BMW did it with a little screen and 4 way rotary jog dial.

Haven't been in a new BMW lately but I assume it's fine. I had a 2008 Mini with its own pseudo iDrive setup and didn't mind it at all, just having a few buttons for core features and simpler menus for the rest does wonders. If anything I wish my current car had a similar physical controller, cause it'd be nice to use it with CarPlay rather than always having to use the touchscreen. I think there's ways to do it with those Android as CarPlay host boxes but haven't delved too much into it.
 
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Ashe

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Early iDrive was...something. I remember hearing/reading about it way back but recently saw a recent video review of an old BMW of that era (found it here). Best way I can describe it was that it seemed like a bizarro version of the touchscreen craze. Instead of annoyingly cramming too many features onto a touchscreen, BMW did it with a little screen and 4 way rotary jog dial.

Haven't been in a new BMW lately but I assume it's fine. I had a 2008 Mini with its own pseudo iDrive setup and didn't mind it at all, just having a few buttons for core features and simpler menus for the rest does wonders. If anything I wish my current car had a similar physical controller, cause it'd be nice to use it with CarPlay rather than always having to use the touchscreen. I think there's ways to do it with those Android as CarPlay host boxes but haven't delved too much into it.
Okay... don't recall what early iDrive was like as I only encountered it in a couple of test drives where my focus was more on the car itself. Now, I can't imagine doing without iDrive and the fact that BMW is moving away from iDrive in future models has me feeling distressed as it really minimizes the times I have to interact with the touch screen when driving as in, I use the touchscreen significantly less than 1% of the time when I interact with the infotainment system. They really perfected the system and then just decided to throw it away.
 

papadage

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My Mazda has a similar system, and I almost never touch the screen. The only thing I hate is that the playback controls need to be unhidden when playing music. That's not a problem most of the time, but when on Pandora, I'd like them to be visible so that I can dial over to the "thumbs up" and press real quick to tune my station better.

Aside from that, it works really well.
 

stevenkan

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Say what? If it weren't for my addiction to Waze, BMW's iDrive and navigation system is more than adequate, especially with a HUD.
To be fair, I haven't touched iDrive in years. But the one time I did touch it, it was soooo frickin' bad that it soured the entire brand for me, for years. And this is coming from someone who drove his beloved 2000 X5 into the ground at 247,000 miles, and even spent a chunk of change to install a Dice BT module so I could get pre-Hey Siri from the steering wheel.

It was so bad that I was literally laughing out loud during the test drive, causing the sales guy to hmmm and hawww over how good it actually was, but that it was going to get even more better, real soon now. I remember thinking, "How the fuck did this ever get out of beta? Do people actually use this without crashing?" For a "driver's car," it certainly took an enormous amount of attention away from driving.

I hate my current Lexus's joystick/mouse thingy only slightly less, which was a large part of my motivation to put a Grom CarPlay unit in it.
 
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Megalodon

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The CarPlay 2.0 demo video was pretty interesting especially how it challenges automakers to design their own interface for the dash gauges. The hard sell though is...why? An OEM would then have to design two systems, or at least put the effort into making CarPlay look like their in-house design. Certainly they won't be interested in making CarPlay better than their own effort, why would they? I can see a GM/Honda/BMW engineer simply saying "no thanks" and relegating CarPlay to the entertainment system, if that.
I wouldn't buy a car without AA/CP but I have been dreading this and am pleased beyond words to see the initiative failing.