Apple Vision Pro

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fellow human

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  • #1,481
    ant1pathy said:
    Only two points that I have significant issues with:

    First, the focus on "where are the games?!" completely misses the point. Being pigeonholed into "gaming device" is an enormous barrier to general population interest and enthusiasm. It was a deliberate choice to push "general computing platform" to help shift the perception window.
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    It was definitely intentional. It's easy to come to the conclusion that leaving pretty much the entire body of VR software on the table was a bad idea, especially with there not being a ton of other VP software in its stead, but I agree with your implication that it was the right choice, for different reasons.

    VR famously has a problem with stickiness. There's a huge wow factor at first but then people put it away and don't come back. I think the reason for that isn't VR itself or the headset but the games, which in general have the same problem. You finish or become bored of a game, and then move on. If no new games were made a lot of people would stop playing games.

    And that's exactly what has happened to VR. I've been into VR since preordering the Vive and in that time have watched VR game development go from rush to trickle. Every time I go to the Meta store or Steam looking for new VR things to try I come up empty-handed. That's a death knell for stickiness.

    No wonder Apple wants none of it. They don't want stickiness to rely on a steady stream of games, it needs to be a steady stream of messages, social, news, information - the same things that make phones sticky. It was the right call.
     
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  • #1,482
    ant1pathy said:
    Ah, thank you for the clarification, we were talking past each other. I was thinking the "tether" was to a full on Mac, not to a belt clipped device. The AVP has active cooling for the chipsets, that would lead me to believe the kind of horsepower Apple has included in the thing would not be a good choice for something to put in your pocket (unless the screens are the primary heat generation?).
    Click to expand...
    Well, these days, the guts of a full on Mac could fit into something the size of the AVP battery brick. Like an M3 Air's guts.
     
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  • #1,483
    Graham J said:
    It was definitely intentional. It's easy to come to the conclusion that leaving pretty much the entire body of VR software on the table was a bad idea, especially with there not being a ton of other VP software in its stead, but I agree with your implication that it was the right choice, for different reasons.

    VR famously has a problem with stickiness. There's a huge wow factor at first but then people put it away and don't come back. I think the reason for that isn't VR itself or the headset but the games, which in general have the same problem. You finish or become bored of a game, and then move on. If no new games were made a lot of people would stop playing games.

    And that's exactly what has happened to VR. I've been into VR since preordering the Vive and in that time have watched VR game development go from rush to trickle. Every time I go to the Meta store or Steam looking for new VR things to try I come up empty-handed. That's a death knell for stickiness.

    No wonder Apple wants none of it. They don't want stickiness to rely on a steady stream of games, it needs to be a steady stream of messages, social, news, information - the same things that make phones sticky. It was the right call.
    Click to expand...
    Zuckerberg said recently that the most popular apps are social apps. My guess is after that, fitness apps are probably the most popular due to subscriptions.
     
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    fellow human

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  • #1,484
    Horatio said:
    Zuckerberg said recently that the most popular apps are social apps. My guess is after that, fitness apps are probably the most popular due to subscriptions.
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    I don't doubt it, and to be fair there are some games with staying power too. I'm sure everyone has that one game they keep going back to (Eleven Table Tennis for me)

    But in that context social means realtime multiuser - multiplayer games, shared experiences etc. That can be super cool and unlike anything possible with other media but it requires your attention, you can't do something else at the same time, it's ephemeral etc.

    What was missing was async social. Siting down on the couch and catching up with your feeds. It might seem ho-hum compared to games but I'm convinced that's what will take XR mainstream. I just wish I could justify the price of 4 Macs to get it 😮
     
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  • #1,485
    Graham J said:
    What was missing was async social. Siting down on the couch and catching up with your feeds.
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    Personally, I feel like catching up with social media is an ephemeral affair - I don't want to have to have any friction (putting on a headset) to do it - I want to do it and get out. I also realize that there are groups of people that do make SM an immersive affair, and wouldn't mind the friction because it'll enhance the time they do spend.
     
    fellow human

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  • #1,486
    Horatio said:
    Personally, I feel like catching up with social media is an ephemeral affair - I don't want to have to have any friction (putting on a headset) to do it - I want to do it and get out. I also realize that there are groups of people that do make SM an immersive affair, and wouldn't mind the friction because it'll enhance the time they do spend.
    Click to expand...
    True, a lot of the time it's that. Throughout the day I wouldn't whip out one of today's headsets to do it but with future lightweight all-day AR glasses I'm sure we all will.

    But even today, right now, I'm sitting here in my comfy chair with my MacBook catching up on Ars, responding to some iMessages, reading some news, watching a couple of vids. A lot of people spend this time watching TV. AVP seems perfect for these times.
     
    herko

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  • #1,487
    Graham J said:
    True, a lot of the time it's that. Throughout the day I wouldn't whip out one of today's headsets to do it but with future lightweight all-day AR glasses I'm sure we all will.

    But even today, right now, I'm sitting here in my comfy chair with my MacBook catching up on Ars, responding to some iMessages, reading some news, watching a couple of vids. A lot of people spend this time watching TV. AVP seems perfect for these times.
    Click to expand...
    Except that for many folks it’s pretty uncomfortable because of the weight and weight distribution, so it’s not good at this really.

    And typing is a no-go unless you use an external keyboard, so no iMessage. Dictation quality varies depending on your accent, I guess. For me it’s extremely annoying and I have to keep correcting it.
     
    fellow human

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  • #1,488
    herko said:
    Except that for many folks it’s pretty uncomfortable because of the weight and weight distribution, so it’s not good at this really.

    And typing is a no-go unless you use an external keyboard, so no iMessage. Dictation quality varies depending on your accent, I guess. For me it’s extremely annoying and I have to keep correcting it.
    Click to expand...
    Totally fair. But we're talking about product focus; I guess instead of "perfect for these times" I should have said "designed to be perfect for these times". Certainly it's not perfect for that yet but their goal is to get there, that's what's important for the future.

    Sucks for now though 🫤 Have you tried any comfort mods like the one with a second overhead knitted band or a front-to back one?

    I called there being comfort issues the second I saw it. The first thing I would have done is hacked a Boba halo strap onto it and mounted the battery or a counterweight on the back but I can understand not everyone wanting to do that with such an expensive item!
     
    herko

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  • #1,489
    Graham J said:
    Totally fair. But we're talking about product focus; I guess instead of "perfect for these times" I should have said "designed to be perfect for these times". Certainly it's not perfect for that yet but their goal is to get there, that's what's important for the future.

    Sucks for now though 🫤 Have you tried any comfort mods like the one with a second overhead knitted band or a front-to back one?

    I called there being comfort issues the second I saw it. The first thing I would have done is hacked a Boba halo strap onto it and mounted the battery or a counterweight on the back but I can understand not everyone wanting to do that with such an expensive item!
    Click to expand...
    Nope, ended up returning it. Couldn't see myself actually using it for productivity as I intended, and it was $5K with Applecare, taxes, etc. Way too much money. I'd have kept it if I had the bandwidth/time to write software for it, which seems fascinating :)
     
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    python2121

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  • #1,491
    I met up with my brother on vacation and spent about an hour in his AVP and came away thinking that Apple needs a few more attempts before I could be convinced. It was less polished then I expected.

    Displays/optics: surprising and great.
    Weight: outrageously heavy on my nose and super uncomfortable.
    Passthrough: surprisingly good at the same time as suffering from very bad motion blur.
    Control: worked ok, needs improvement with their compensation algorithms. It doesn't feel good to have to stare at an interface element to interact with it, I appreciate that you can use and control a mouse cursor out of your peripheral vision.
    3d video: doesn't fix the problems I have with 3d video, I doubt this will ever be for me.
    3d rendered content: looks super good, I am impressed with the experiences their SoC can drive.
    OS: good first crack but filled with buggy edge cases. not just my guest experience, the owner of the device hit countless buggy edge cases.


    Whatever the reason is, I feel like I got less usable workable real estate with 5 huge windows then 5 small but very dense windows on a computer. I am at the same time extremely impressed and expect better from apple.
     
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    cateye

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  • #1,494
    More spatial dinosaurs, Apple? That's so 2023. It was, of course, only a matter of time...

    How Amateur Performers Are Making Porn in the Apple Vision Pro

    The couple records videos using an iPhone 15 Pro Max using a 3D video recording app named Spatialify designed for the Vision Pro. However, they mentioned that the built-in camera of the headset captures images with superior depth, leading them to favor recording directly through the headset itself.
    Click to expand...
    "Ultimately, the Apple Vision Pro is a huge step toward more homemade VR porn," said Damien.
    Click to expand...
     
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  • #1,497
    In “kind of obvious” news, MacRumors is reporting that Apple back-burnered the next Vision Pro to focus on a lower cost version first. Supposedly, they’re trying to see how to cut costs while retaining the current display.

    It does seem like the Vision Pro needs its own original iPhone price cut if it’s going to be a lasting product.
     
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    omniron

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  • #1,502
    i'm curious what apple will compromise on to make it cheaper

    bumping to an m4 is an easy win, maybe not using aluminum, ditch the front screen or use a cheaper one (since persona enrollment seems to use it to let you know when youre doing it right). But this doesn't seem like 2000$ in savings

    If they used lower res screens or cameras, that compromises the vision os experience too much.
     
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  • #1,503
    Honeybog said:
    In “kind of obvious” news, MacRumors is reporting that Apple back-burnered the next Vision Pro to focus on a lower cost version first. Supposedly, they’re trying to see how to cut costs while retaining the current display.

    It does seem like the Vision Pro needs its own original iPhone price cut if it’s going to be a lasting product.
    Click to expand...
    I strongly disagree and think this is an incredibly stupid and worrisome move by Apple, and the first time I feel like I can truly definitively say "yeah, Tim Cook can't steer the ship right into new blue waters". Do they need to be working on getting down the chain? Sure! But Apple is plenty big enough to walk and chew gum at the same time, and this is a critical new product category. The problems here are manifold:
    1. The AVP from everything discussed and positioned wasn't meant to be some giga mass product, but essentially an MVP developer focused one to get the ball rolling. It needed iteration. It needs tech that isn't even developed yet (high resolution retinal scanning displays vs the lower res ones in existence right now). But most of all like any breakthrough product it needs commitment through the stumbling initial stages. Apple should be able to easily absorb that, and doing so with their cash, margins and ability to think longer term was one of their strengths. This rollout though feels hesitating, and then expecting immediate big hit or giving up. More like Google than Apple. That's a very bad sign to me. Something is out of whack, be it their expectations and numbers or their ability to sell that to the board or something. But commitment for ecosystems is a big deal because it can go positive or negative spiral very easily. If devs expect you to stick with something doggedly for multiple generations, they'll be willing to jump in earlier as well. If not then they won't, which can then become self-fulfilling.
    2. As stated above, working on a cheaper "Apple Vision Mini" should in no way mean not working on an AVP2 as well.
    3. The AVP to me at least didn't have a cost problem, it had a value problem. What I want is something that can replace every single display I've got, and displays I don't have because it'd be too expensive. The AVP just didn't have enough resolution for that, and it was also hampered by Apple's own choices in terms of making it play with others. Apple somewhere along the way of mega success forgot about how to work with the rest of the world, and I think that has bit them in the ass hard here. If the AVP had the ability to act as a screen/mouse/keyboard (including proxying physical ones) with any VGA/DVI/DP/HDMI+USB system I'd have one already, I was lamenting yesterday how nice it'd be for rack usage. If it had 6k or 8k res and that, plus Apple was working hard on an industry standard for embedded/appliance type device display and control, it'd be worth even more. It's really frustrating how they both can't handle that kind of vision anymore and have a habit of exerting iron fisted control which means nobody else can build for their stuff either.
    Comparisons to Jobs have died down over the years since he departed, but this is the first time where I really feel like "this is important, they're mucking it up, and Jobs wouldn't have acted this way". The entire approach is just so timid, so "MBA", which is very uncharacteristic of the hungry era of Apple. Most unfortunate.
     
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    Mhorydyn

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  • #1,504
    xoa said:
    If the AVP had the ability to act as a screen/mouse/keyboard (including proxying physical ones) with any VGA/DVI/DP/HDMI+USB system I'd have one already,
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    Even just build it into the dev strap so they can make even more money off the accessories if they want, but the option would, I believe get more people in the door. Given the high cost, limited pool of things to do with it, and the complete reliance on Apple to move it forward, it's a tough sell for me right now. If I could connect it to my PC to play HL: Alyx, that'd be a nice backup if Apple doesn't move things forward very quickly. Likewise with the price -- if it was super cheap, I'd buy one for everyone at home to play with because the novelty seems like it'd be neat. Or, finally, if the ecosystem was developed to a much higher degree, that'd also make it more compelling -- but I want a native Plex, Netflix, Youtube, etc app at the very least. I want way more environments for viewing through those apps -- the bridge of the Enterprise, the Millennium Falcon, etc.

    I don't expect those things from v1, but I do want to see Apple trying to push this forward pretty aggressively on all fronts. If we go two years with zero change in the price or additional/updated models, that'll be pretty disappointing.
     
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    ant1pathy

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  • #1,505
    Honeybog said:
    I wonder if they got spooked by the sheer lack of interest/even lower uptake than expected.
    Click to expand...
    This is firmly in "citation needed" territory. It's (some) analyst assumptions that it's "underperforming" in the market, but no one outside of Apple know what the initial targets were and if it's behind/on/ahead of schedule for them. At $3,500 and limited production capability, yeah, it's not the kind of instant huge-market hit that, say, the Apple Watch was (although that one took a few years to really proliferate as well).
     
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  • #1,506
    The AVP seems most like the Newton, way ahead of its time, to the point it's so limited by current tech that the possibilities of the device class can't even be imagined, let alone implemented. The question is if the AVP will need to die and lie dead while tech catches up, or if Apple will keep it alive as a sort of public skunkworks project for over a decade until the tech catches up.

    xoa said:
    If the AVP had the ability to act as a screen/mouse/keyboard (including proxying physical ones) with any VGA/DVI/DP/HDMI+USB system I'd have one already, I was lamenting yesterday how nice it'd be for rack usage. If it had 6k or 8k res and that, plus Apple was working hard on an industry standard for embedded/appliance type device display and control, it'd be worth even more.
    Click to expand...
    I can't see Apple making a tool that makes working with other company's purely technical tools easier. It isn't consumer-facing enough.

    It also isn't a platform, and Apple seems to want the AVP to be a platform like the iPhone and not just a tool/peripheral like the AirPods.
     
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  • #1,507
    ant1pathy said:
    This is firmly in "citation needed" territory. It's (some) analyst assumptions that it's "underperforming" in the market, but no one outside of Apple know what the initial targets were and if it's behind/on/ahead of schedule for them.
    Click to expand...

    Well, I’m not saying that it’s definitely underperforming, but something is surely spurring them to suspend development on AVP2, and it’s not that the original is an overwhelming success.

    At $3,500 and limited production capability, yeah, it's not the kind of instant huge-market hit that, say, the Apple Watch was (although that one took a few years to really proliferate as well).
    Click to expand...

    Right, so I think we’re kind of in agreement here. Apple couldn’t have expected to sell watch or phone number of Vision Pros. They had some sales expectations and based off of those, green lit development on both a follow up Pro and on a more budget-friendly model. Now they’re pausing development on the Pro, so clearly something hasn’t aligned with their expectations for where things should be by now.
     
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    omniron

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  • #1,509
    cogwheel said:
    The AVP seems most like the Newton, way ahead of its time, to the point it's so limited by current tech that the possibilities of the device class can't even be imagined, let alone implemented. The question is if the AVP will need to die and lie dead while tech catches up, or if Apple will keep it alive as a sort of public skunkworks project for over a decade until the tech catches up.


    I can't see Apple making a tool that makes working with other company's purely technical tools easier. It isn't consumer-facing enough.

    It also isn't a platform, and Apple seems to want the AVP to be a platform like the iPhone and not just a tool/peripheral like the AirPods.
    Click to expand...
    I use mine daily, and if the current gen had perfect eye tracking, i'd actually tell people to buy one. When it works, it's the best way to browse the web, watch movies, play ipad games (civ vi is amazing on it).

    But when it's off even a little, it's immensely frustrating. There's no way an average person who's not enamored with the tech itself would tolerate it.
     
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  • #1,510
    So… we know there’s zero chance that Apple is going to give up on this platform. If there were no way to do an inexpensive non-Pro device now, Apple has an obvious path - release an even better Vision Pro2 with an M4, R2 etc a at about the same cost and kick going for commodity down the road another year or two.

    So part of me reads this as Apple having high confidence in their ability to hit that lower price point with enough effort. Enough confidence that they can put all their eggs in the non-Pro basket, knowing they can move back to designing a VP2 once the Vision is done.
     
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    Chris FOM

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  • #1,511
    ant1pathy said:
    This is firmly in "citation needed" territory. It's (some) analyst assumptions that it's "underperforming" in the market, but no one outside of Apple know what the initial targets were and if it's behind/on/ahead of schedule for them. At $3,500 and limited production capability, yeah, it's not the kind of instant huge-market hit that, say, the Apple Watch was (although that one took a few years to really proliferate as well).
    Click to expand...
    There’s no citation needed at all. What’s missing is verification. If the original reporting is accurate (which is the actual assumption here), then it’s a clear indicator the AVP has failed to meet at least some metrics. How do we know this? Because they’re changing plans. Usually a change on this scale is a response to something causing the original plans to no longer be valid. If the AVP was performing as expected they’d still be going by their original development schedule.
     
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    Horatio

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  • #1,512
    omniron said:
    I use mine daily, and if the current gen had perfect eye tracking, i'd actually tell people to buy one. When it works, it's the best way to browse the web, watch movies, play ipad games (civ vi is amazing on it).

    But when it's off even a little, it's immensely frustrating. There's no way an average person who's not enamored with the tech itself would tolerate it.
    Click to expand...
    Yeah, about 15% of the population cannot use eye tracking reliably. The most common reason is eyelash occlusion, but there are a lot of other reasons that can make eye tracking unusable (some of which can't be solved with tech, e.g. people that can only move their eyes in 1 axis). For a mass market product, a secondary input method is necessary.
     
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  • #1,513
    Mhorydyn said:
    Even just build it into the dev strap so they can make even more money off the accessories if they want, but the option would, I believe get more people in the door. Given the high cost, limited pool of things to do with it, and the complete reliance on Apple to move it forward, it's a tough sell for me right now. If I could connect it to my PC to play HL: Alyx, that'd be a nice backup if Apple doesn't move things forward very quickly. Likewise with the price -- if it was super cheap, I'd buy one for everyone at home to play with because the novelty seems like it'd be neat. Or, finally, if the ecosystem was developed to a much higher degree, that'd also make it more compelling -- but I want a native Plex, Netflix, Youtube, etc app at the very least. I want way more environments for viewing through those apps -- the bridge of the Enterprise, the Millennium Falcon, etc.
    Click to expand...
    Right, I think it's beyond Apple's abilities. Which wouldn't be a problem and indeed would be completely normal for any company, except for their insistence on vertical everything, and perhaps an unwillingness to really disrupt their own existing products. Which was always a danger but would represent a real change from what happened with the iPhone and iPod.
    I don't expect those things from v1, but I do want to see Apple trying to push this forward pretty aggressively on all fronts. If we go two years with zero change in the price or additional/updated models, that'll be pretty disappointing.
    Click to expand...
    I definitely expected a lot of that from a v1. It's some of the lowest hanging fruit to offer real value out of the box and hit the ground running. We shouldn't lose track of the fact that the Mac and iPhone models of development and support have different strengths and weaknesses, and I think the iPhone model is pretty much weaker for wearable displays. The fundamental, core physics value of a WD is "the one thing that gets photons to your retina, replacing all the other stuff", but that means I think most people will reasonably want a lot more flexibility and cross compatibility out of it.

    Going for years with it languishing (ala the Mac Pro approach) would be absolutely awful, but even so far what they've done is kinda :\ unfortunately.
     
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  • #1,514
    cogwheel said:
    I can't see Apple making a tool that makes working with other company's purely technical tools easier. It isn't consumer-facing enough.
    Click to expand...
    They make the Mac? And this was supposed to be the "Pro" thing right? They could make more locked down lower end models (though I think a lot of their lockdown here is stupid and self defeating at any level), but you're underlining one of the basic mixed issues here: a $3500 wd is not "consumer-facing", like, at all.
    It also isn't a platform, and Apple seems to want the AVP to be a platform like the iPhone and not just a tool/peripheral like the AirPods.
    Click to expand...
    They're MBA fools then if they're that far down the consultant-speak rabbit hole. Doubly so because it's not just tech, at the rate things are going they're going to be dragged kicking and screaming into things by the EU and other governments, except in the typical ham-fisted government way that mixes plenty of bad with good vs being leaders. That's already happening, nobody knows how to use scalpels instead of sledgehammers anymore, but while I'm worried about a lot of the second order effects I can't say Apple hasn't been begging for it either.
     
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  • #1,516
    Chris FOM said:
    Usually a change on this scale is a response to something causing the original plans to no longer be valid. If the AVP was performing as expected they’d still be going by their original development schedule.
    Click to expand...
    Or new opportunities. AVP could be performing exactly to internal expectations but the feasibility of a commodity Vision has changed. Obviously I don’t know which it is, just pointing out that plans change based on new opportunities too so you can’t rule that out.
     
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  • #1,517
    wrylachlan said:
    Or new opportunities. AVP could be performing exactly to internal expectations but the feasibility of a commodity Vision has changed. Obviously I don’t know which it is, just pointing out that plans change based on new opportunities too so you can’t rule that out.
    Click to expand...
    If that were the case they’d be looking at both/and instead of either/or. But shifting resources away from the AVP is pretty good reason to believe (again, assuming this report is accurate, which has not been confirmed) things aren’t going so well.
     
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  • #1,518
    Chris FOM said:
    If that were the case they’d be looking at both/and instead of either/or. But shifting resources away from the AVP is pretty good reason to believe (again, assuming this report is accurate, which has not been confirmed) things aren’t going so well.
    Click to expand...
    Why? You iterate at the high end because you have something new to offer at the high end. Is there a follow on even better screen that’s going to be available in a reasonable time frame?
     
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