Then explain why people have largely gotten rid of desktops in favor of laptops...even on desks with stand-alone monitors/keyboards/mice? Why would people buy a 2-in-1 instead of a laptop AND a tablet?
Samsung Dex...a potential "Killer Ap"
- Thread starter Echohead2
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Then explain why people have largely gotten rid of desktops in favor of laptops...even on desks with stand-alone monitors/keyboards/mice? Why would people buy a 2-in-1 instead of a laptop AND a tablet?
The vast majority of laptop owners do not plug them into any monitor/keys whatsoever. And it’s not clear to me that the number of laptop owners who do plug them into monitors outweighs the number of desktop users. It’s certainly not the rout that phones are of GPS/standalone cameras despite laptops being able to drive desktop monitors for approximately 2X as long as smartphones have been a thing.
And use of keyboards/mice with tablets is vanishingly small, so the overwhelming majority of tablet owners are 2 device owners - dwarfing the number of two in one owners, likely by an order of magnitude.
Are 2 in ones a thing? Sure. Are laptops plugged into monitors? Sure. But neither have the sort of manifest destiny trend towards all consumers desiring a single device the way we see with smartphones overtaking all other handheld devices.
And I think it largely comes down to ergonomics and psychology. 2 devices that are physically similar and perform the same function triggers our “thats redundant” reaction much more than 2 devices that are physically dissimilar that can be made to perform similar functions.
Put another way - all things being equal people would maybe prefer a single device, but nothing is ever equal. And the preference for one device is dramatically weaker than the preference for the device(s) to work optimally. My smartphone is a great camera. A 2 in 1 often makes a shitty tablet. And a Dex desktop makes a crap desktop.
I'm of the opinion that the moto G is the best $250 phone in the US hands down.
It's almost completely stock android. Hi quality camera for the price range.
I'd guess that $250 is where MOST phones are purchased. The ASP is pushed up by high end phones, but if you were to look at the median phone price. I don't have that info, but I bet it's closer to $250 than ANY Dex phone.
This is ASP. but I want MSP Median Selling price.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/619 ... in-the-us/
For Dex to succeed it needs to be available on the midrange Samsung products. Products like the moto G or the midrange Pixels. I don't honestly even know what the midrange Samsung products are.
Pretty Ironic that I know the entire iPhone range well enough even though I don't buy Apple and I know the popular midrange to midrange+ google and Moto Monikers, but no idea what Samsung is selling except the S(whatever number they are up to).
Cellphones are not a rich man's toy any more. The poorer areas of the world are going from nothing to mobile because it's cheaper to put up a few towers than run wires to every building, plus you get the benefits of being mobile. Landlines are now more of a rich man's thing than cellphones are.
If a smartphone is a rich man's toy, and smartphones (with GPS) can be had for $60-80 new (here in the US, in India, in China, etc), then Dex has no chance because that monitor, keyboard, and mouse will be far too expensive. This is assuming that Samsung downports Dex, which they have not done since it launched. It started with the mainline Galaxy S series five years ago, was up-ported to the Note and Fold line, and sideported to the A90 5G (which costs more than a Galaxy S FE).
I never mentioned digital cameras, but since even those $60 phones have cameras built in, digital cameras are clearly not any more of a rich man's toy than smartphones are.
I stand by my initial claim. Dex is only available on phones that cost an order of magnitude more than a poor person's phone, therefore it is a rich man's toy.
This would require the technology getting better. Looking back five years to when Dex launched, it already worked very well back then. It sounds like the only real improvements are that some apps have been updated to work better with Dex. Dex itself hasn't improved appreciably.
Dex' problem isn't that it doesn't work today (because it worked five years ago and still does), it's that it's an answer to a question no-one is asking, except maybe you. Since it's been working fine for five years and still hasn't gained traction, why exactly would you expect that to change?
Used is irrelevant because everything is available used. You could get a used laptop for $50. You can get a full not-very-old SSD-equipped business-grade Windows laptop for the top end of your used S8 range.
But Dex adds devices! It adds at minimum a monitor, a keyboard/mouse combo, and whatever you use to charge those assuming they have built-in batteries. If people want fewer devices, a tablet is less than Dex, as is a Chromebook.
The fact that Dex reduces the number of CPUs is irrelevant because pretty much anything you'd run on Dex is going to be cloud-based, and could also be used on a tablet or Chromebook accessing the same cloud storage.
I’m not a masochist.
I’ve watched a few YouTube videos and read reviews. Color me unimpressed. The job of a desktop is to run desktop software. It doesn’t do that in the general case - it runs a very small number of curated apps in desktop mode with little in the way of momentum towards having a meaningful ecosystem of apps that support it.
Let’s put this on ice for another 5 years (approximately the time since you last did a fawning DEX is great thread) and see where we are.
How much does a Samsung Galaxy S8 cost?
As technology progresses, the ability will be on lower nad lower end phones while providing good experience.
Again...smartphones were out like a decade before the iPhone or Android took off.
Laptops were almost an oddity for a decade from first released version. And at least another decade before people really starting using them instead of a desktop. They were a secondary device. etc.
Computers existed for like 40 years before they really became commonplace.
Whooosh...there went the point. Too bad you missed it.
why would I need to charge something that would just be plugged in on my desk? And it does reduce devices...I could skip owning a laptop/desktop. On the go, I would just use my phone.
why would I need a tablet or chromebook? I have my phone. But what am I going to use with my nice 24" monitor etc. at my house?
In 5 years, it is likely that I will only be using a smartphone and no other computer...and connecting to monitor/keyboard/mouse for "desktop" uses.
You know...a "Post-PC world".
When new? $700+.
Again, this has not happened with Dex. In its five-year life so far, it has never been expanded to lower-end devices. Those lower-end devices have, in the meantime, continued to gain in terms of computing power, so a modern midrange is more powerful than a five year old S8. Why do you expect Samsung to make Dex available on lower end devices when it has shown no sign of doing so?
Smartphones, and their underlying tech improved in that time period. Dex has not, it worked fine in 2017 and works fine now. Dex obviously isn't held back by smartphone computing power, smartphone features, software features, etc. What is suddenly going to change that makes Dex take off when it already works fine now and still is ignored by everyone not posting under the name "Echohead2"?
Laptops, and computers in general, improved in power, in what tasks they could do, in ease of use, and decreased in cost drastically. Dex, and its underlying tech, has not improved in power (it worked fine in 2017), has not improved in what tasks it can do (you could use it for everything you do now back in 2017), has not improved in ease of use (it was easy to use back in 2017), and has not decreased in cost (the minimum cost of a new phone that runs Dex is still $700). Dex shows no evolution, no improvement, that would allow you to draw parallels to laptops or computers in general.
If I missed it, it's because you didn't make it. Restate it in clear terms.
It is disingenuous to consider a used S8 but not consider a used laptop as an alternative.
I'm pointing out that "devices" can mean either separate parts (like a monitor or keyboard), or things that contain a processor (like a smartphone or laptop). In the former case, as I already stated, laptop + phone = 2; monitor + keyboard + phone = 3. In the latter case, I already pointed out that device count isn't relevant (extra CPU-having devices aren't a problem) because the actual work is done in the cloud and thus available seamlessly on multiple devices. A Chromebook and an Android smartphone aren't harder to manage than just an Android smartphone.
Are you really this myopic? No-one said "need" other than you. The point is that no-one other than you gives a fuck about Dex because it just isn't an improvement over having both a laptop and phone, or a Chromebook and a phone, or a tablet and a phone, or a desktop and a phone. Dex isn't cheaper, it isn't more functional, it isn't more convenient, it isn't more powerful, it isn't smaller, and it isn't more reliable.
If you have a Chromebook and a smartphone, you could leave the Chromebook at home. Do your on-the-go stuff on your phone just like if you didn't have that Chromebook. Your Chromebook would still be at home and fully functional, so, for example, your kids could do their homework on it. Oh, and if you break or lose your phone, you can still use that Chromebook.
I'm trying to understand what would compel somone to buy a used S8 for almost the same price as a new moto G or Google Pixel 5g.
In 5 years I will still not care what your personal preference for computing is, nor will I care about any one else’s personal preference on an individual basis. It’s all deeply uninteresting.
But if you are using your smartphone that way I’m pretty confident you’ll be in the extreme minority just like you’re in the extreme minority now in even wanting that future.
Very 2003 topic. That was the last year Apple sold more desktops than laptops, and no doubt Windows PCs followed. No one is going back to a time when you go to a room where the computer is, in this case a room with a display, keyboard, and input device.
The future—actually, the last several years for those in Apple's ecosystem—is the computer is whatever device you are holding or near: desktop, laptop, tablet, handheld, wearable, voice assistant. All communication and information is passed along seamlessly. Microsoft is still fumbling with this paradigm, but they will get there eventually. Probably.
The future—actually, the last several years for those in Apple's ecosystem—is the computer is whatever device you are holding or near: desktop, laptop, tablet, handheld, wearable, voice assistant. All communication and information is passed along seamlessly. Microsoft is still fumbling with this paradigm, but they will get there eventually. Probably.
How much would one cost today if bought new?
Ok
Get it?
Except more apps are tuned to it.
Also...you do realize that "Dex" is not the only one, right?
So the smartphone got more powerful but the desktop version didn't? You do realize that the Dex uses the phone's hardware, right?
Yep...just me. And I guess Samsung, LG, Huwai, and others who are all doing it and adding it to more and more phones.
Yep, just me...and makers of laptops.
In the US, problably. However I suspect that won't be the case worldwide. But we'll see.
Nah. Having lived and worked in Africa for the past 15 years or so, I don’t think that’s likely at all. Other parts of the world will just use cheap phones and cheap other devices. There will be weirdo knockoff Chromebooks that cost only marginally more than the screens you’re plugging your phone into. There will be an abundance of second hand devices from all over the place pressed into useful service long after the average American would consider it junk.
From Samsung? Looks like $500+, if they had any in stock. Elsewhere? You're dealing with fly-by-night sellers with poor reviews so the likelihood of getting a new one isn't high. Pretty much the entire stock of a five year old phone is going to be refurbished, from pretty much every manufacturer. Apple is probably the best bet for a new old phone, and their oldest is now less than three years old (iPhone 11).
That's used. Again, if you allow consideration of used smartphones, you must allow consideration of used laptops and desktops as an alternative.
While true, from what I've read the pure web app versions still worked fine on Dex five years ago, so this is a minor improvement, and isn't an improvement to Dex itself (so Samsung can't force it to continue to happen).
And? Others' have even less traction.
This probably wasn't clear enough, but by "power" I meant the things it can do, not the speed at which it can do them. Dex doesn't do more now than it did five years ago, and apparently speed five years ago was fine. Remember, we're very far into the range where the human is the limiting factor for productivity apps, not the CPU. Video and music don't play faster on a faster machine. Games can take advantage of more speed, but Dex is a poor choice for games for many reasons. Professional apps just aren't on mobile to begin with; when's the last time someone talked about how long their Cinema4D render took on their phone?
LG left the smartphone industry a year ago. Samsung hasn't been adding it to a broader selection of phones, only to new iterations of the same high-end lines (Galaxy S, Galaxy Fold, Galaxy Note). Huawei? Chinese state controlled and banned in the US.
Laptops? Sure looks like there's nothing to support, you as the end user just download the Dex-On-Windows or Dex-On-MacOS application from Samsung.
Most apple users I know that do any sort of "work" on their computer have an office whether it's at home or at an actual building and that office room has some form of desk where the computer sits. 9 times out of 10 that desk has at least a 24" if not 27" monitor. Most of the work occurs in that setting.
Now, I'm in tech and around here, the Devs like to have their tool chain on a big ass monitor. Maybe other folks in other industries don't do that anymore.
I know plenty of people that enjoy the ability to be mobile, but I don't know too many that don't have that desk surface and assorted add ons. The mobility of the laptop is not the primary use case. Just an important secondary one.
I know a few creatives that either heavily use an iPad or only use an iPad, but even there, many of them go back to a laptop on a work surface to do certain post processing tasks. If they can afford to have 2 devices, they will definitely lean on the bigger compute when they can.
I think the One Device to rule them all idea has at its core a desire for a consistent environment, data and apps, in whatever form factor we’re using. My iPhone and iPad do a pretty good job or presenting a continuous experience at the OS level. I don’t know if integration is tight at the Mac laptop/desktop level but what I’ve read has it as “in progress“.
Cloud whatever has made big strides in addressing data access over different environments. Chrome as a password manager almost works. Dropbox helps. Finding equivalent apps across devices is a pain. Waiting for a medium to large file to upload/download is ugg. Plugging devices together and finding the right way to move files directly is also ugg. Modern game installs are basically stuck wherever you downloaded them.
I think OS families will continue to improve on a consistent environment across devices, especially Apple. Ubiquitous access to data, okay, but fast access is a hard problem. Some kind of local eventually consistent cache, like on one’s phone, would help out a lot.
We’ve seen a lot of device convergence over the years. I don’t think we’ll see much movement in this area for a while due to UI and ergonomic constraints. Yes, for a large minority of people, the raw power in their phone could act like a docked laptop, if the OS had the capability.
I think it’ll be interesting to see what happens if solid AR glasses are possible. Screen real estate is the main reason I have a tablet. If hand/finger tracking can mainly replace touch screens or even make an okay keyboard/mouse replacement, well, I can see giving up a laptop.
Edit: Max to Mac
Cloud whatever has made big strides in addressing data access over different environments. Chrome as a password manager almost works. Dropbox helps. Finding equivalent apps across devices is a pain. Waiting for a medium to large file to upload/download is ugg. Plugging devices together and finding the right way to move files directly is also ugg. Modern game installs are basically stuck wherever you downloaded them.
I think OS families will continue to improve on a consistent environment across devices, especially Apple. Ubiquitous access to data, okay, but fast access is a hard problem. Some kind of local eventually consistent cache, like on one’s phone, would help out a lot.
We’ve seen a lot of device convergence over the years. I don’t think we’ll see much movement in this area for a while due to UI and ergonomic constraints. Yes, for a large minority of people, the raw power in their phone could act like a docked laptop, if the OS had the capability.
I think it’ll be interesting to see what happens if solid AR glasses are possible. Screen real estate is the main reason I have a tablet. If hand/finger tracking can mainly replace touch screens or even make an okay keyboard/mouse replacement, well, I can see giving up a laptop.
Edit: Max to Mac
Do people still use Drop Box anymore? Is it 2018 all over again?
Google Drive and Onedrive are the only tools I regularly see any more. Dropbox just has less tolerable integration. It has a few things that it does well, but for general use and integration, it lags.
Onedrive is pretty good if your Windows first and android second. The windows integration moving from windows computer to windows computer is obviously perfect and I've never had an issue with it on my phone.
But I honestly hate working with documents on my phone, so it really doesn't matter.
I've not tried it too much with Android tablets.
Google drive is generally good, but the windows app is slightly more cumbersome. But if you're on the google stack vs. O365 it may be better.
Google Drive and Onedrive are the only tools I regularly see any more. Dropbox just has less tolerable integration. It has a few things that it does well, but for general use and integration, it lags.
Onedrive is pretty good if your Windows first and android second. The windows integration moving from windows computer to windows computer is obviously perfect and I've never had an issue with it on my phone.
But I honestly hate working with documents on my phone, so it really doesn't matter.
I've not tried it too much with Android tablets.
Google drive is generally good, but the windows app is slightly more cumbersome. But if you're on the google stack vs. O365 it may be better.
I'm curious to see how the Surface Duo evolves. The Duo 2 was a huge improvement over the Duo 1. The Duo could act as phone and tablet.
I just purchased a Surface Pro 8 (believe it or not), while normally a macOS/iOS user, and this thread is as good as any to give some opinions because I do desire that "one device" at least for mobile.
I have been waiting for a new personal machine for some time. I have been getting along with my work Mac as my primary computer + a personal iPad Pro for awhile as I was mostly waiting for a re-designed Macbook Air to give me that super thin (like the Macbook attempt), portable machine I can carry everywhere. I really am not liking carrying around two devices, especially when the iPad mostly stops being used once I am not watching Netflix.
My iPad works great for travelling when I am watching media or watching something in bed. Everywhere else it is so frustrating to do anything in-depth so for years it mostly kind of just sat around until I travelled. I really desire a tablet (or consumption) and laptop device with all the compatibility and power I am used to so I can just travel with one device. I'd like to transition between some scripting while watching a tv show in the corner. I had liked Microsoft trying, but for years it was really bad. I also kept hoping Apple would get there at least somewhat with more iPadOS power, but it's been incredibly disappointing.
Anyway, I finally got a little fed up and researched some more on the newer Surfaces and read up on Windows 11 and I am impressed. Is it perfect? No, I ran into a couple issues with the touch keyboard not coming up, some lag, the gestures are not as fluid (ha!) as iOS, and the battery life, while decent, isn't exceptional considering what Apple offers these days. The Settings app sometimes just crashes. It's also a bit uncomfortable to use with the keyboard on my lap without a pillow or something.
But... I might just be in the infatuation stage, but the experience is still worlds better than the Windows 8 mess and Windows 11 finally got rid of the whitespace-wasting Metro look and it actually is finally coming together. The keyboard (mostly) comes up when I click any textboxes, even in classic apps. I can scroll with my fingers, without touching tiny scroll bars, and I can load it up with media or even offline Netflix when flying. It's my powerful laptop but now easily serves my travelling need and fits in the backpack perfectly.
Unfortunately, I still wouldn't recommend regular people who don't need powerful OSs use it over an iPad, but for IT people and nerds who sometimes are flashing chips, programming, plus remoting into servers it is super cool to not feel constrained and panicky anytime I am without my full laptop and just have the iPad. And I hated carrying both. I really like this form factor and think it really makes so much sense if it can continue to be iterated on. I really wish Apple would converge way more than they have.
hmmm...did the Surface cause the double post? LOL
Thanks for the mini-review. The Surfaces do look good. I had a Yoga years ago and now an HP Spectre. I like it pretty well. I don't travel much and seems almost silly to have bought a laptop and it hardly move from my desk...but there you go.
Thanks for the mini-review. The Surfaces do look good. I had a Yoga years ago and now an HP Spectre. I like it pretty well. I don't travel much and seems almost silly to have bought a laptop and it hardly move from my desk...but there you go.
What the... it may have ?
I haven't traveled for a couple years (Covid, saving for a house) but since last summer I've been going somewhere as much as I can.
And I don't think it's silly to buy a laptop because the potential is always there. My former boss thought buying laptops were silly for everyone and my new department did and then Covid hit...suddenly not so silly. Plus, unless you need the desktop power laptops make more sense as I said for the flexibility.
I use DEX when I travel. I plug my phone into the room TV and use small portable keyboard and mouse. It's extremely handy.
It’s an app with potential use. Sure.
It’s not likely to ever take off in this configuration in the first world.
Our phones do too much now. We need them constantly. I don’t want to use it to replace my laptop, desktop or iPad. It’s going to be awkward when I have to close my desktop app to access my multi factor auth app to enable downloading my latest emails, etc, before heading back to my terminal.
Also sometimes to work I sacrifice my phone to the vengeful gods (Disney+), to distract a kid.
1-device-does-it-all should have appeal potentially in a global marketplace, where people can only spend like $300 once every half decade for their total tech stack. One phone for that budget and it trying to do it all maybe makes sense.
But any middle class first world person would likely much prefer better uniform files and access across their 2+ devices, vs a phone having a bad desktop inside it. At best the factor for this is a tablet that is also your desktop. iPad M1 probably has the literal capability of loading OSX and providing a similar experience, if they wanted to (although the space for OSX is probably a lot). USB-c’ing into my monitor with an iPad Pro and getting OSX on demand would be fine, I’d take it. Same for windows on windows tablets, but that’s already a thing. But a crappy desktop via my phone? Naw I’m good.
It’s not likely to ever take off in this configuration in the first world.
Our phones do too much now. We need them constantly. I don’t want to use it to replace my laptop, desktop or iPad. It’s going to be awkward when I have to close my desktop app to access my multi factor auth app to enable downloading my latest emails, etc, before heading back to my terminal.
Also sometimes to work I sacrifice my phone to the vengeful gods (Disney+), to distract a kid.
1-device-does-it-all should have appeal potentially in a global marketplace, where people can only spend like $300 once every half decade for their total tech stack. One phone for that budget and it trying to do it all maybe makes sense.
But any middle class first world person would likely much prefer better uniform files and access across their 2+ devices, vs a phone having a bad desktop inside it. At best the factor for this is a tablet that is also your desktop. iPad M1 probably has the literal capability of loading OSX and providing a similar experience, if they wanted to (although the space for OSX is probably a lot). USB-c’ing into my monitor with an iPad Pro and getting OSX on demand would be fine, I’d take it. Same for windows on windows tablets, but that’s already a thing. But a crappy desktop via my phone? Naw I’m good.
FWIW, I do this with my iPad Pro and USB-C docking station (Dell D6000 iirc.) Although that's a simple mirror and it looks like Dex extends it to a second monitor
DeX was interesting on my S9+ but to be really useful to me I want a Linux phone I can toggle between user interfaces which runs both Linux and Android apps. The only thing that's not terrible about phones is their portability. They inherently sacrifice ergonomics and everything else towards that goal. NBD at this point since PCs are trivially cheap but having a single device I could toss into a wireless dock for desktop use or my RAM mounts for road use would be quite handy. LoD (Linux On DeX) didn't last long but UserLAnd has potential. I didn't explore it in depth.
Linux flagship phones will eventually exist and I can afford to wait. A sufficiently fast phone which could replace a low-end PC and run multiple OS in VMs would suit me fine but that's a luxury/toy use case.
DeX and relatives are not particularly popular because they're so niche. Techies anywhere can wallow in hardware with little effort so they don't need but may want it. Normals don't need it at all.
Linux flagship phones will eventually exist and I can afford to wait. A sufficiently fast phone which could replace a low-end PC and run multiple OS in VMs would suit me fine but that's a luxury/toy use case.
DeX and relatives are not particularly popular because they're so niche. Techies anywhere can wallow in hardware with little effort so they don't need but may want it. Normals don't need it at all.
I'll consider that when my computer gets old. Well I guess it's already old but I'm not ready to replace it yet. My work experience is a laptop that docks is just as good (better really) than a laptop plus a desktop.
As always, King Louie speaks the truth.
I vaguely remember hearing about this feature during the Windows Phone days, but it really seems like a hassle of a solution in search of a problem.
I picked up a Lenovo 10E Chromebook with keyboard case for $140. It's a full-fledged Chromebook tablet/semi/laptop that allows me to work or play on the go without locking up my phone's cameras and UI. For example, I can watch a video on the elliptical while using my phone to fire off an email or hand my phone off to someone else to talk while I work on vacation (mundane, yet real examples). There is no awkward setup conversion or gimped integration, and no awful Samsung UI. While there might be some sort of bottom-shelf Chinese solution that would allow me to convert my phone into say a 15.6" laptop for $140, it wouldn't travel as well or work as seamlessly.
Being able to use a phone as a desktop in a pinch is still useful - for example, sharing content to a conference room easily. But the market for a kludgy "desktop replacement" solution just isn't there, as evidenced by...zero percent uptake in the actual market.
The way to make this interesting would be to allow it to wirelessly broadcast to standard TVs somehow and then wirelessly connect to bluetooth KB/M setups. This would still be kludgy compared to a cheap Chromebook or laptop, but at least it would remove the "have to carry your own monitor" component. Like a modern HTPC in your pocket without cables or dongles.
It might be a little different now that laptops all pretty much depend on USB-c docking stations to attach peripherals. It's just your computer fits in your pocket, and has more limited capabilities. But the lower end of Chromebooks cost less than a phone, so unless that portability is the big driver for you, you might be better off with a really cheap Android phone and a low end Chromebook.
Only for certain product lines. Even in the ultralight space you have stuff line the LG Gram. Not everyone is Apple or aping apple.
It works well enough but not being able to toggle between phone and desktop environments is why I only use DeX during extended power outages (I power the accessories and external display off one of my Clore JNC 660 jump packs). It was fun to play with but I don't care for an Android desktop. If I could toggle to xfce when docked that would be ideal.
I guess they were partnering/inspired by with Microsoft since a while ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Display_Dock
I bought a used Display Dock because they work with DeX but my casual search found no evidence of cooperation.