RCS messaging is 'the new SMS'

papadage

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The issue is with group texts. We had one last Android user in a large family chat group. All but one were using iMessage. Every time he sent a photo to the group chat, it was shit quality, and when he tried to react to other messages, we all received text notifications. So, if he liked a photo, we all received separate notifications that so and so liked your photo.

It's not the color of the bubble so much as the shit interop when one participant uses SMS.
 

BigLan

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The issue is with group texts. We had one last Android user in a large family chat group. All but one were using iMessage. Every time he sent a photo to the group chat, it was shit quality, and when he tried to react to other messages, we all received text notifications. So, if he liked a photo, we all received separate notifications that so and so liked your photo.

It's not the color of the bubble so much as the shit interop when one participant uses SMS.
As an android user, I get those stupid reaction messages whenever a iOS user likes or laughs. I think Google's fixed it in their messages app now, but not in Google Voice.
 

sword_9mm

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I dislike those stupid reaction icons that some IOS users put in there. I really dislike the 'see you type' dots. No thanks.

No dog in the fight really but the RCS thing sounds better than sms and imessage if it can pull together ubiquity so there's not multiple competing standards and can get rid of some of the crap sms (low quality pics I spose) and imsg do. Also let me change my bubble color cause why not. Not going to solve kids being garbage but more color is always welcome.
 

Nevarre

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I dislike those stupid reaction icons that some IOS users put in there. I really dislike the 'see you type' dots. No thanks.

Be that as it may, when the other side expects those features as a bare minimum technical expectation, it's problematic for them. Just this week I had someone get mad at me for 'not responding' when I was typing simply because they couldn't see the 'three dots.' Granted this person I'm related to doesn't have living memory of SMS texts costing money or any other antiquated thing. SMS is really, REALLY dumb.

No dog in the fight really but the RCS thing sounds better than sms and imessage if it can pull together ubiquity so there's not multiple competing standards and can get rid of some of the crap sms (low quality pics I spose) and imsg do. Also let me change my bubble color cause why not. Not going to solve kids being garbage but more color is always welcome.

There will still be two competing standards-- iMessage and RCS-- if this goes through, and it's the old as-written standard for RCS without encryption (Google supports an extension to the standard to allow encrypted chats.) It does not bring Android up to parity with iMessage, but it may make some of the problems less severe. It still leaves encryption unsolved for now. It probably also means that some of the more esoteric features of iMessage will have to be downgraded or interpreted by a handler in the non-Apple messaging app but the majority of rich features will start to work.

There's no "choosing" the chat colors in iMessage. How Apple decides to represent people within the iMessage realm and outside of the iMessage realm is entirely on Apple.
 

ant1pathy

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My wife runs a Pixel and I'm on an iphone. I don't understand the issue but I don't social media so I'm probably in the dark. All our messages seem to work fine afaict. I can't see when she types but I find that type of thing gross as hell.
Have her send you a full-res photo or short video clip to see the file size limits in action.
 

wrylachlan

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why can't folks just pick their bubble color?
Because:
I had no idea what the green or blue meant (encrypted or whatever);
Yeah, that’s why.

I can’t imagine why you would want to hide the distinction between “this message is end to end encrypted and thus secure” and “this is totally unsecure plain text transmission”?

I mean it’s not like Apple has been subtle about what the blue bubble means. It’s all over their Messages section of the web site, they’ve made many many ads where it’s featured prominently and it gets mentioned at just about every key note when they’re unveiling something new for the iMessage platform.
 

wrylachlan

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I dislike those stupid reaction icons that some IOS users put in there.
By “some iOS users” you mean essentially all iOS users. It’s a core way most of my friends network communicates. There’s just a ton of cases where a quick reaction says exactly what you want to say.

You come across very “get off my lawn” with your opinions on messaging.
 

cateye

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I actually think reactions are useful. Or at least, they're better than a string of repeated acks, or "agrees", or "hahas".

The reactions are essential in the same way texting is essential in a world with email: They're immediate and have low friction. In addition, they trigger a unique sound effect that is different from the "new text" sound, so you even know someone has reacted to something you wrote without having to interact with your phone or watch to read a new message. Typing out "haha" and sending a whole additional text? What is this, 1993?

EDIT: Ninja'ed by wrylachlan. Therefore, I have reacted to his post with a like. BEHOLD, PROOF OF CONCEPT!
 
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sword_9mm

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You come across very “get off my lawn” with your opinions on messaging.

I'm not a teenager or in college. I don't use that type of thing and never really 'social media'd' after IRC in undergrad.

I don't respond to every message and don't need to add some 'haha' or 'thumbs up' icon.

I also don't live on my phone which some people find insane.

You do you of course.
 

wrylachlan

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I'm not a teenager or in college. I don't use that type of thing and never really 'social media'd' after IRC in undergrad.
The idea that only teenagers or college kids use emoji reactions is just

😲

The average age of my circle of friends is somewhere around 45 and I’m near the top of the range at 49. We all use reactions. I very much doubt that we’re outliers in this.

And social media and message groups are vastly different. I don’t have any social media accounts at all. But I message my friends on the regular.
I don't respond to every message and don't need to add some 'haha' or 'thumbs up' icon.
Again with the assumptions - that only people who feel the urge to respond to every message would find benefit in reactions. Not remotely true. I let many (most?) group chat messages go by without comment of any kind. Some I find amusing or beneficial enough to add a reaction to, but not worth adding another message. Those I react to. This isn’t that hard.

It’s like you’ve gone full “shakes fist at cloud” on a core way that vast swathes of the population communicate. If that’s the hill you want to die on, but it’s clearly not a mainstream position.
 

sword_9mm

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Not saying it's 'hard'. I don't use em and don't care (and the imsg spy typing dots is sickening; also hate that in Teams). I don't respond to all texts with ANYTHING. Hahas or oks or lols, or whatever. I only respond when needing to and mostly it's with 'k' which is easier than long pressing and picking some little thumbs up pic.

So for ME sms/imsg is interchangeable as I don't use anything that imessage provides over sms. I don't drug deal over txt so not sure what encryption gets me but that's neither here nor there imo.

I think it should all be interoperable because having to download and create some facebook chat app is dumb and Europe can keep that shit.

Luckily my group doesn't care and just sends through whatever app the phone comes with (imessage for iphones, whatever google uses; dunno that one; google message maybe?). It works.

So good for Apple for including RCS? Huzzah for all.

edit: and never ever call someone unless you apologize profusely for it and someone is dying. Calls are always ignored.
 

Entegy

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On this we can agree. Phone calls are the new fax.
This take pisses me off a much as than sword_9mm's take on message reactions. When you need phone calls, you will use phone calls. I'm searching for vendors on house stuff right now. You know who responds to their web forms or emails? Less than 20%. You know who got me my info when I called? 100%

Personally, if I call you, it's a damn good reason for sure, but I am not apologizing because I'm calling you, I'm apologizing because I'm Canadian and an apology comes every other second. 😛

Seriously though, this all boils down to old man yells at cloud*. Shock and awe, different people use different things. I use messaging reactions every day, I have to call people a lot lately, but hey, I'll never understand the appeal or vanity of TikTok or SnapChat.


*#notalloldpeople my parents love their messaging reactions and emoji as well.
 

cateye

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You know who responds to their web forms or emails? Less than 20%.

A problem, absolutely. And yes, when you're a consumer looking to engage a business, a phone call can be the path of least resistance—if that business treats phone interaction as valuable. My experience has been the businesses that don't answer text or web queries are also terrible about returning phone calls. There's zero excuse for not communicating promptly and effectively if your job in any way involves interacting with the public. That should include web forms, email, maybe texts, and definitely phone calls. Agreed.

I was more referring to B2B interactions: I am self-employed and interact with a stable but far-flung set of clients, all representing other businesses. There are some I think I speak to on an actual phone call once a year, if that. They email, they text, they link me to shared documents. A Zoom meeting (with an agenda) occasionally when we need to deep-dive into something in real time. Every other communication medium under the sun. Just never a phone call. Others seem completely unable to resist calling me over the smallest of fucking things. They don't use the phone because it's efficient or the best choice for what they need to communicate, or any other practical reason. They do it because they're disorganized and it's their default, much like the fax is to similarly ossified organizations. It's become too casual. Phone calls should be about !!! THIS IS ABSOLUTELY IMPORTANT !!! only, much as the fax should be for... well, I don't know what the fax should still be for in an era where sharing secured documents digitally is trivial.

Guess which clients 1. I enjoy working with, 2. Have their shit together more often than not, 3. Always pay my invoices on time, 4. Seem to understand their markets and are successful in their own right?

Phone calls are a precision tool when used effectively. I just don't think they make sense as the go-to general-purpose communication tool anymore. My time is too valuable for someone else's need to turn a three line email into a 30 minute chat.

Personally, if I call you, it's a damn good reason for sure, but I am not apologizing because I'm calling you, I'm apologizing because I'm Canadian and an apology comes every other second. :p

:D I visited Canada for the first time this past summer. Y'all really are the nicest people. Such a joy, even the simplest interaction. Except, at least in Toronto, you're terrible drivers.

EDIT: Sorry, Horatio, I've turned this into a Lounge topic. Bad moderator, no donut. ❌🍩❌
 
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Shavano

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The issue is with group texts. We had one last Android user in a large family chat group. All but one were using iMessage. Every time he sent a photo to the group chat, it was shit quality, and when he tried to react to other messages, we all received text notifications. So, if he liked a photo, we all received separate notifications that so and so liked your photo.

It's not the color of the bubble so much as the shit interop when one participant uses SMS.
But was it crappy because that's just the limit of what that Android phone could do or because of choices Apple made to give grudging support for interoperability? I think it was the latter. Their now deciding to add RCS interoperability probably means the user experience will improve for Apple Messages users that communicate with Google Messages users. And I think that was probably to avert a lot of iPhone users learning that the shitty Android interoperability wasn't because Android phones had shit texting ability. All you have to do is look at your husband's wife's buddy's Android phone to see that isn't the case. Google Messages works fine. It's when you cross it with Apple Messages that it becomes clear it's ONLY an interoperability problem. You can blame that on Google but it's not like Google ever had an opportunity to force their way into the iMessage ecosystem, whereas Apple could have implemented RCS years ago if they wanted to.
 
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Shavano

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I dislike those stupid reaction icons that some IOS users put in there. I really dislike the 'see you type' dots. No thanks.

No dog in the fight really but the RCS thing sounds better than sms and imessage if it can pull together ubiquity so there's not multiple competing standards and can get rid of some of the crap sms (low quality pics I spose) and imsg do. Also let me change my bubble color cause why not. Not going to solve kids being garbage but more color is always welcome.
RCS was definitely a big improvement on SMS for Android users.
 

Shavano

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Be that as it may, when the other side expects those features as a bare minimum technical expectation, it's problematic for them. Just this week I had someone get mad at me for 'not responding' when I was typing simply because they couldn't see the 'three dots.' Granted this person I'm related to doesn't have living memory of SMS texts costing money or any other antiquated thing. SMS is really, REALLY dumb.



There will still be two competing standards-- iMessage and RCS-- if this goes through, and it's the old as-written standard for RCS without encryption (Google supports an extension to the standard to allow encrypted chats.) It does not bring Android up to parity with iMessage, but it may make some of the problems less severe. It still leaves encryption unsolved for now. It probably also means that some of the more esoteric features of iMessage will have to be downgraded or interpreted by a handler in the non-Apple messaging app but the majority of rich features will start to work.

There's no "choosing" the chat colors in iMessage. How Apple decides to represent people within the iMessage realm and outside of the iMessage realm is entirely on Apple.
While that's true I think the vast majority of texting users don't really care about encryption and aren't aware whether their messages are encrypted or not or what that means for their privacy. If you're using X.com, facebook, instagram, tiktok, or any of the other social media, or Google search on your phone, it's hard to imagine you care much about privacy, and most phone users do use those apps on their phones.
 

Exordium01

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I can't stress enough -- in a way that makes no sense for the many, many countries where WhatsApp is the most common standard-- that WhatsApp adoption in the US is very limited and very situational. WhatsApp had almost zero market before Facebook bought them and now many users are not interested in using a Meta product. If it would have stayed independent or been bought by Google (and not killed) or whatever that might be a different story. I'm a user. It's superior to RCS and iMessage in a lot of ways. I in no way dislike the WhatsApp product but I use it because I communicate with Europeans and the only conversations I'm in on WhatsApp are ones that are directly to Europeans or include Europeans. Full stop. I can't imagine a situation where I would be in a WhatsApp chat with an American because that's just so far out of the norm of messaging platforms that are used. That's typical across pretty much all US-based users that WhatsApp is not even an app that they have. WhatsApp is only now trying to advertise, but uptake is very low on both the Android and iOS side.

Apple got there first in the North American market and has built an entire culture around iMessage and the blue/green bubble issue. Drake writes songs about women who have a green bubble. There are groups of people who reject dates if their chat is green, etc. Apple owns the US market and that trend is extremely stark among younger generations. Age 13-19, iPhone ownership is >85%, some surveys placing it more like 90%, because parents are choosing to buy iPhones at least in part so their kids aren't bullied. Because WhatsApp completely lost the US market, the decision to switch platforms is a serious one-- if you lose your chats by migrating from iMessage, then you're probably not going to buy an Android device. If you're on WhatsApp on Apple no big-- back up your chats and restore them on the new phone and you can switch platforms if you want. That's not a reality for most iPhone users in the US. Facebook Messenger is probably the closest analog to how most other countries use WhatsApp, but the die hard anti-Meta people break that as a universal messaging tool. (I'm not saying that being anti-Meta is a bad idea, but it does limit the usefulness of any alternative that Meta owns.)
The only place where I hear all this talk of bullying is in the BF and most of it is from you. This has to be a massive exaggeration. Also, there is no reason to trust Meta’s stewardship of WhatsApp or Facebook Messenger.

Something like RCS is a much better idea in theory, but Google has co-opted the standard and have done an absolute shit job with all their other forays into messaging, there’s no reason to believe this will be any different. Assuming the protocol is truly open we’d be better off with anybody else running the show.
 
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Shavano

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The only place where I hear all this talk of bullying is in the BF and most of it is from you. This has to be a massive exaggeration. Also, there is no reason to trust Meta’s stewardship of WhatsApp or Facebook Messenger.

Something like RCS is a much better idea in theory, but Google has co-opted the standard and have done an absolute shit job with all their other forays into messaging, there’s no reason to believe this will be any different. Assuming the protocol is truly open we’d be better off with anybody else running the show.
I can think of a couple worse but SBF isn't going to be running anything any time soon. ;)
 

lithven

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I asked a couple legitimate teenagers (13yo, iPhone, and 16yo, Android) over the holiday how big of a deal the blue vs green text color is in their schools. The answer was generally no one cares specifically about the text color. They did state there is some annoyance that when doing group texts some of the "features" of iMessages are disabled if a non iPhone user is included. They also said there might be some teasing but no one is malicious about it. What I took away from it was the kids prefer to have all their friends on an iPhone because it makes for a better experience for them (as an existing iPhone user) but bullying generally doesn't come in. Now this could just be because they have better friends and live in a more tolerant part of the country.

Another interesting thing I heard was from their mother (Android) who said, since she isn't on an iPhone she doesn't have any ability to do parental controls on her 13yo's phone. For that reason alone she was considering getting an iPhone for her next mobile device. I thought that was an interesting tidbit. Sounds a bit devious when you think about it. Kids "need" to be on iPhone to communicate with their friends and then the parents need to be on iPhone to have any parental controls.
 

Shavano

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I dunno… how much parental control do you have the other way round, if the kid's on Android and the parent's on iOS…?

(Not snark, genuinely interested, because I don't know…)
anybody can have a Google account. No purchase required.

edit: it occurs to me after posting that Android is much less locked down than iOS and that may mean it's harder for kids to work around them. Also I don't know how parental controls in Android really work. I assume it's possible to control them with just a Google account and no Android device but I don't really know for sure. So I think I'm probably right but if somebody knows different, you should listen to them, not me.
 
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Horatio

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If you really want to lock down kids phones I think Android is probably better, but for bad reasons. Apple bans apps from installing MDM profiles on devices do they can't be super invasive. Android doesn't, so parental control apps can, for example, intercept E2EE messages, disappearing messages, etc. I totally get that kid phones should have no expectation of privacy, but the idea feels icky.
 

lithven

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Without going to third party you have Google family link that you can access from an android app, the web, or even an iPhone app.

 

koala

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Well, anyone can have an iCloud account too, I think?

I was poking around because I was curious, but if you know someone's iCloud credentials and you can access their device, you could set up iMessage on a second device to snoop? WhatsApp has multidevice capabilities, so you could probably do the same "natively"?

(A friend used to work for a parental control software vendor. I'm glad I don't have to deal with this stuff.)
 

cateye

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Having just gone through this setting up a phone for my daughter...

Family Link can, indeed, be used to control a child's Google account and everything that a Google account enables even if the child is on an iPhone. However, its device tracking and remote device control services only work on Android (somewhat understandably). As a parent, you can access the Family Link "dashboard" via App (which is hot garbage and a mish-mash of every UI/UX format Google has gone through over the last 10 years) or the web (much, much better). In typical Google fashion, it's also poorly documented and there are things that are exposed to Family Link but not controllable through Family Link, requiring you to jump into YouTube's separate child controls, for example. Google also tells you about 50 times during the setup process that they can and will monetize your child's activity once they turn 13 and you, as a parent, have to agree to that in order to use the service.

Apple's child restrictions are invoked through, and controlled by, creating an Apple account in the name of the child that is then added under the umbrella of your iCloud family "unit." You then log the child into their Apple device with those credentials and it becomes fully controllable by the family administrator, including access timers, allowed and disallowed apps (by time, location, etc.) purchase access, access to shared Apple resources, and so on. It's like a child-centric MDM and can be as lax or as strict as you wish. However, the only way to invoke, monitor, or change those settings is via the iCloud settings on an Apple device logged into the family unit. There is no web or separate app access.

As always, Apple's solution is pleasantly robust and well thought out, but useless if you're not an all-Apple household, and Google's tries to work within and around Apple's restrictions as best it can, but is a bit of a mess and has that smell like it could be discontinued or reinvented at any moment.
 

Spice_Weasel_Bam

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1.) Please be precise in naming things. "Messages" is the Google-provided Android client software for both RCS (including E2E encryption) and SMS/MMS. "iMessage" is the Apple-only messaging platform that is universal between iDevices and the Mac based on your Apple account ID. iMessage will also accept SMS messages, but that downgrades the chat such that it only has the capabilities of SMS/MMS.

Please be precise in naming things. The app on an iPhone is called "Messages". iMessage is one of the messaging services that Messages on an iPhone uses. iMessage has nothing to do with SMS messages,
 
I'll just reiterate that Google Family Link is as described. More versatile than Apple, because there's a web page and an iPhone App, but not as put together.

It took me 15 minutes the other day to figure out that my son's request to buy and install a phone game...which he paid for and I wanted to approve. Was not in family link, but in MY playstore app. And not obvious for all of that.


HAving said that, I don't think Family link is going anywhere. They need the baseline MDM it provides.
 

Mark086

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Had a couple of people try "shaming" me for not having the right color bubble on iPhone. When they see the look of disgust on my face as I say that they are a fucking idiot, they don't mention it again.
My immediate coworker has Android, I bug him about it occasionally. It's a joke though, it's actually convenient than him and I are on different platforms as we do web development and it makes it easy to do adhoc testing or talk about how to handle certain unique situations.
 

Echohead2

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I'll just reiterate that Google Family Link is as described. More versatile than Apple, because there's a web page and an iPhone App, but not as put together.

It took me 15 minutes the other day to figure out that my son's request to buy and install a phone game...which he paid for and I wanted to approve. Was not in family link, but in MY playstore app. And not obvious for all of that.


HAving said that, I don't think Family link is going anywhere. They need the baseline MDM it provides.
They really don't advertise this much. It is 6 years old and seems like a pretty good thing.
 

Echohead2

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My immediate coworker has Android, I bug him about it occasionally. It's a joke though, it's actually convenient than him and I are on different platforms as we do web development and it makes it easy to do adhoc testing or talk about how to handle certain unique situations.
To be clear, I wouldn't respond that way to obvious joking around. But I have had a couple of people be serious.
 

koala

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Whatsapp has a desktop app.
Even more, Whatsapp Business seems to be a neat product for doing customer support. I've dealt with a few companies that I assume they are using it. My understanding is that you message a single contact, and you get routed to a specific support person.

In a way, it's better than the proprietary web chat solutions that many companies use. For example, I can follow a support chat from my desktop and my phone, which obv. no web chat solution that I know of does.

OTOH, I must be a Meta customer to get IM support from companies.