Did secularism fail?

About 20 years ago, there seemed to be a prevailing consensus (maybe more of a prevailing hope) that America was slowly becoming a more secular society. That’s not to say that religion wasn’t a very active political driver, but that it was in decline and its proponents on the defense.

The idea was that within a generation, more people would identify without religion than with, and along with it would come a greater emphasis on humanism, science, intellect, and rationality. The idea that appealed most to me was one of moderation (in the least freighted sense), that without an appeal to (omnipotent) authority, people would become more empathetic, more open to debate, less ideological.

Today, the U.S. is less religious than it has been at any point, but it feels even further from the secular utopia that was promised. This isn’t to diminish the very real theocratic movements that we’ve seen recently, but broadly, it seems that society has replaced religion with irreligious dogma, rather than secularism.

I think this is fairly evident in more nihilistic corners of the political right, where oppositionalism seems to have overtaken policy, but it also appears on the left. People who I really don’t agree with, like Ian Buruma or John McWhorter, have made some pretty compelling arguments that the modern left has co-opted religious—and specifically Protestant Christian—ethics. I find it compelling because it provides a framework for something I’ve felt so difficult to get a handle on. I remember the first time I saw an email from a colleague with a land acknowledgement signature and feeling utterly confused by such a bizarre appeal for penance (even if I don’t disagree with the underlying idea).

Similarly, as someone raised by Silent Spring liberals, “I trust the experts” as a mantra is slightly off putting to me. Having been in academia, the idea of abstractly aligning yourself with experts seems weirdly dogmatic to me. I trust the expert consensus, sure, but individually, I think experts are assholes.

Broadly, as someone who was raised as a secular Jew, what I find most striking is this need for something to appeal to, some center, some need for belief. It seems more like a replacement for religious dogma rather than an absence. In non-political terms, I think you can even see it in the rise of weird obsessions with astrology and the like.

Which is a long winded way of asking: is there a future for politics without belief? And is secular humanism relegated to the dustbin?
 
When exactly were we promised a secular utopia?

Given the basis of the US founding (freedom of religion), I would say we've been gradually moving towards a country where religious tolerance is much higher than it used to be. That however isn't exactly the norm, yet, insofar as there are self perpetuating pockets of religious orthodoxy everywhere.

That's wholly different than implementation, where individuals, including those in government, still need a mystical religious ambiance to their lives. We can't really get rid of that, because there are self perpetuating pockets of religious orthodoxy.
 

Lt_Storm

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No. Secularism hasn't failed. After all, I haven't ever been required to shoot a Catholic* because he is too Catholic for my Protestant upbringing and government to tolerate. Sure, that doesn't sound like all that much, but, it's what is really at stake here. The idea that it has somehow failed because some people want to restore the inquisition is insanity in a handbasket.

* or atheist, or Muslim, or slightly different branch of Protestantism, or... you get the idea.
 
When exactly were we promised a secular utopia?

Fair question. Again, I’d say this was more in the air 20 years ago in “intellectual circles,” but I think there are longer roots to it and it seems to have disappeared from discourse generally.

Given the basis of the US founding (freedom of religion), I would say we've been gradually moving towards a country where religious tolerance is much higher than it used to be.

I think tolerance is higher, but interest is about the same or lower, personally. I very much don’t want to derail my own topic, but I think the American left has moved closer to the European left in this regard and I don’t entirely think that tolerance is the gold standard.

That's wholly different than implementation, where individuals, including those in government, still need a mystical religious ambiance to their lives. We can't really get rid of that, because there are self perpetuating pockets of religious orthodoxy.

That’s what I’m very interested in—the mystical religious ambience. I agree that it’s hard to get rid of, but is it solely due to pockets of orthodoxy?
 
No. Secularism hasn't failed. After all, I haven't ever been required to shoot a Catholic* because he is too Catholic for my Protestant upbringing and government to tolerate. Sure, that doesn't sound like all that much, but, it's what is really at stake here. The idea that it has somehow failed because some people want to restore the inquisition is insanity in a handbasket.

* or atheist, or Muslim, or slightly different branch of Protestantism, or... you get the idea.

So, I should specify that I’m explicitly not talking in terms of tolerance/absence of religious violence/etc. as OrangeCream put it.

In a perverse way, I’m less concerned with the people wanting to restore the inquisition. I’m asking more about the abstract ideal of secularism.
 

Lt_Storm

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In a perverse way, I’m less concerned with the people wanting to restore the inquisition. I’m asking more about the abstract ideal of secularism.

But there is no difference between these concerns: there exists no religious freedom without the abstract idea of secularism, without the abstract idea of secularism, we live in a theocracy and that means that we have an inquisition because it is the government's duty to look after the souls of the people. This is, indeed, the entire point behind the abstract idea of secularism, the why behind its invention. Secularism is, at its heart, simply a truce between people who hold fundamentally different beliefs that they won't try to kill one another. The promised secular utopia, so to speak, was that we wouldn't be continually fighting and dying in nearly continuous religious wars like Europe had been for hundreds of years (since the reformation). It succeeded so well that we have mostly forgotten what the pre-secularism dystopias were like.
 
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Secularism is, at its heart, simply a truce between people who hold fundamentally different beliefs that they won't try to kill one another.

Ah, okay, so, can we unpack terminology a bit? I was consciously avoiding atheism specifically, but I think you’re hitting on a very correct definition of secularism that is still separate from what I meant. I would definitely agree that secularism according to your definition is still a concern. I was looking more for an absence of belief/appeal to greater authority.
 

Lt_Storm

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Well... in government, at least, the absence of appeal to a higher power is certainly an aspect of secularism, namely, if secularism is to be done well, it implies a kind of official agnosticism be applied, after all, we often treat official and personal domains separately. And it's certainly possible for that failure to come in the form of religious antitheism. As such, I don't think you are entirely out in left field so to speak with thoughts about the absence of appeal to higher power.

On the other hand, I do think it is practical to divorce secularism from theism/atheism/antitheism/nihilism. Realistically these are two different ideas. It's entirely possible for the official to hold an agnostic position, and, therefore, refuse to include appeals to higher power in their official acts, while, personally, holding any specific belief and, therefore, preaching at church every Sunday.

As to a personal idea that people struggle with nihilism and a personal need for some kind of belief, there are a bunch of possible answers, from the universal to personal, or the theistic to atheistic. Secular humanism can be built on a great many of these philosophical foundations. It's just a matter of understanding that there are many ways to think about these kinds of problems and being open toward a diversity in approaches.
 
Fair question. Again, I’d say this was more in the air 20 years ago in “intellectual circles,” but I think there are longer roots to it and it seems to have disappeared from discourse generally.



I think tolerance is higher, but interest is about the same or lower, personally. I very much don’t want to derail my own topic, but I think the American left has moved closer to the European left in this regard and I don’t entirely think that tolerance is the gold standard.



That’s what I’m very interested in—the mystical religious ambience. I agree that it’s hard to get rid of, but is it solely due to pockets of orthodoxy?
It’s hard to get rid of because it’s basic human nature for the most part and the orthodoxy takes advantage of that.

In other words you’re asking when humans will either evolve out of the need for a higher being, or a system is created that replaces it without being a religion.
 
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poochyena

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I think you can even see it in the rise of weird obsessions with astrology and the like.
Yes, this here. People are moving away from traditional organized religion, but many are just moving to other spiritual stuff like astrology. Astrology and otherkin are probably the 2 most common religion alternatives I see among people under age 35.
When exactly were we promised a secular utopia?
I remember the feeling of that promise. Polls showed a huge rise among young people no longer being religious. I thought we were going to have a secular utopia. But then I start meeting all these young people who are otherkin and obsessed over astrology, and I realized we just have the same thing under a different name now. I mean I guess its better, but its not what I was expecting when I saw the rise of non-religious people in polls.
 
Secularism is the separation of church and state, and the removal of the influence the former has on the latter. Secularism and freedom of religion require a broad tolerance towards different ideals and principles. What I see dwindling is exactly that tolerance. It wasn't too long ago that the ideals of religious groups dominated societal standards - marriage, sex and gender, the role of women, certain aspects of discourse (so-called blasphemy etc)...

But these ideals have been pushed back, and societal standards have slowly been opened and widened. This in turn has irked the same religious groups, who now see their influence and power slowly being reduced. And they're fighting back.

If secularism has failed at anything, it is to get to a point where we treat religion as a personal choice first and foremost. In a truly secular society, religious beliefs should not take precedence over the common good or buy you any kind of special treatment. No church or religion should have any laws or rules that supersede or displace the law of the land even in the confines of their own church (looking at you, Catholic Tribunal). No religious person should be able to use their religious beliefs as a front to evade or break the social contract.

While I am all for including religious beliefs in discrimination laws to the purpose of barring discrimination based on religious beliefs, the first and most important rule must be that freedom of religion also means freedom from religion - the choice to follow any belief, or none.

Is this discussion limited to the US?
I'd say Australia is broadly a secular society, although there are attempts by some religious groups to change that.

Australia may be a secular country as per its constitution, but the lived practice is not there. This starts in parliament, where every sitting day starts with a Christian prayer, even though parliament has become way more multicultural in the past few decades. Efforts to replace the prayer with a more open, non-prescriptive mindfulness period have failed so far.

Also, the Australian citizenship oath has two versions: one that invokes the Christian god, and one that doesn't. While non-religious immigrants who acquire citizenship will clearly choose the non-god version, religious-but-not-Christian people may see this as a preference of Christian beliefs over others.

Lastly, the involvement and influence of Christian churches in state matters, health or education in Australia is way more prevalent than it would be in a truly secular society.
 

iPilot05

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First off apologies to the religious folks reading this. The ones reading Ars are definitely NOT the problem.

If anything the decrease in religious Americans has made churches get even more aggressive with politics.

Also, the people walking out of church are the moderate thinkers. The ones that, through the Internet and other technologies, are becoming more educated and less likely to buy what religion is selling. The ones left are increasingly radical as they’re the only ones left who buy into it all. So while there’s fewer religious people in the US, the ones that are are real pieces of work. Especially the ones posting stuff online and getting on the news.
 

wrylachlan

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Religion provides structure around some really basic primal nature parts of our brain: feelings of being dirty and needing to be cleansed, belief in a power greater than ourselves, ideas of secret knowledge that our group possesses and others do not, desire for a structured order to the world, etc.

What I see from a lot of my secular friends is that these foundational human nature tendencies start to play out in weird ways. The desire for cleanliness feeds into anti-vax and perverse control of food (raw milkies). The need for belief in a higher power leads to a lot of anthropomorphizing and deification of nature - almost a reversion back to a more Wiccan-like understanding of nature as a spiritual entity. And there’s a substantial authoritarian trend and trend towards intolerance among many secular people - it’s not just a religious phenomenon.

If we want an enlightened secularism to prevail I think we need to acknowledge that religion didn’t create the facets of human nature that it keys into. They were already there and will be there after religion is long gone. So an enlightened secularism needs to have an answer for deep-seated needs for cleanliness. For tendencies toward authoritarianism. For a desire for the comfort that comes with in-group reinforcement. For belief itself.

These facets of humanity were baked in over evolutionary time scales. They’re not going anywhere.
 

karolus

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As far as the US goes, the trend toward more religiosity in government has been a trend for years. It was during the 1980s under the Reagan Administration when nominally religious operatives began courting religious movements such as Jerry Falwell’s Moral Majority. These said operatives didn’t much care about breaking the barriers between church and state—but to get the votes of religious adherents, particularly in the South. This gambit was fraught with potential perils—the full extent of which is coming to a head all these decades later as the movements come to their logical conclusion. While the early proponents may not have much cared for religion, there are true believers who have replaced them—which is readily apparent with some of the initiatives that have already been passed, or are being discussed. The founders, with all their flaws and foibles—came from the Age of Enlightenment, and cast a wary eye toward these sentiments. They looked to insulate government and public life from religious oppression and excesses. Perhaps it will be left to us to fight these battles again.
 

DarthSlack

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Secularism hasn't failed. The issue is that American christianity (not to be confused with true Christianity) has disproportionately high power in government.

The issue isn't Christianity as a whole, but rather the fundamentalist sects of Christianity that refuse to acknowledge that they aren't the only variant of Christianity. The first immigrants from Europe came here because they couldn't stand (or live with) the state-sponsored Christianity that prevailed in Europe. Turns out, they couldn't stand each other either. But there are lots of Christians who aren't hell bent on obtaining political power so it's not accurate to lump "Christians" into a single pot.

In other words, secularism and Christianity aren't fundamentally incompatible, there are just Christian sects that deliberately choose to make them incompatible.
 

Shavano

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It’s hard to get rid of because it’s basic human nature for the most part and the orthodoxy takes advantage of that.

In other words you’re asking when humans will either evolve out of the need for a higher being, or a system is created that replaces it without being a religion.
IMO that "need" is learned, and can be unlearned. What's left is the recognition that humanity is in control of its own beliefs and behaviors, both individually and collectively.

I think many perceive it as humanity's natural state because they have been immersed in a culture (one of many) that indoctrinates them from birth in religious or quasi-religious ideologies.
 
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IMO that "need" is learned, and can be unlearned. What's left is the recognition that humanity is in control of its own beliefs and behaviors, both individually and collectively.

I think many perceive it as humanity's natural state because they have been immersed in a culture (one of many) that indoctrinates them from birth in religious or quasi-religious ideologies.
I’m not convinced the need is learned. I’m sure the answer to the need doesn’t need to be religious, just that it’s the current status quo.
 
Secularism hasn't failed. The issue is that American christianity (not to be confused with true Christianity) has disproportionately high power in government.
Rather than true or false I prefer calling it radical fundamentalist orthodoxy. It’s akin to the radical extremism we see in the Arabic world.
 
With accompanying sharia law. It's not even that far removed what they're proposing to do in their 2025 plans.

But it's worth knowing that by and large, the world is still heading towards secularism about as fast as ever, maybe even accelerating. Organized religion is losing ground, most of the real illiberal/purely religiously motivated crap will be gone at some point.

Then it's on the secularists to actually replace that with something better. We can do better, right? Oh god, we're also people. This isn't going to end well...
 

karolus

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Rather than true or false I prefer calling it radical fundamentalist orthodoxy. It’s akin to the radical extremism we see in the Arabic world.
Perhaps it's simply adherence to dogma. Many are resistant to change, even if solid evidence shows it's inevitable, and sticking with current orthodoxy will be harmful in the long term. This is seen in business, government, and everyday life.
 
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Perhaps it's simply adherence to dogma. Many are resistant to change, even if solid evidence shows it's inevitable, and sticking with current orthodoxy will be harmful in the long term. This is seen in business, government, and everyday life.
I would hesitate to call if dogma if we’re talking about business, if only because profit incentive means competition wipes out dogmatism.

Certainly in the absence of competition dogma is certainly good enough, but once you have competition you give people a reason to become critical.

Obviously people are skilled at criticism at differing levels, but that is an entirely different discussion.
 

Lt_Storm

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I would hesitate to call if dogma if we’re talking about business, if only because profit incentive means competition wipes out dogmatism.
Given Chick Filet and Hobby Lobby exist, color me skeptical about this idea. Add in the typical business speak of aligning objectives, circling back again, and downsizing, and I'm doubting. Finish with cargo fully like interpretations of management methods like year over year KPIs, performance reviews, and stack racking, yep, I don't believe this at all.
 

Shavano

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With accompanying sharia law. It's not even that far removed what they're proposing to do in their 2025 plans.

But it's worth knowing that by and large, the world is still heading towards secularism about as fast as ever, maybe even accelerating. Organized religion is losing ground, most of the real illiberal/purely religiously motivated crap will be gone at some point.

Then it's on the secularists to actually replace that with something better. We can do better, right? Oh god, we're also people. This isn't going to end well...
The main, most powerful religions losing their grip on society is an unmitigated good. The worst thing that has been suggested in this thread is that when they stop believing in whatever orthodoxy, they tend to take up a variety of heterodox religious or quasi-religious ideologies. But that variety is both enabled by and enables secularism, because no group has sufficient social and political power to infringe greatly on the rights of those that don't agree.
 
Given Chick Filet and Hobby Lobby exist, color me skeptical about this idea. Add in the typical business speak of aligning objectives, circling back again, and downsizing, and I'm doubting. Finish with cargo fully like interpretations of management methods like year over year KPIs, performance reviews, and stack racking, yep, I don't believe this at all.
I think you’re misunderstanding my point. I was talking about business with regards to business practices, not about business with regards to religious beliefs.

I’ll examine your points:
stack ranking is less than 50 years old:
https://lattice.com/library/what-is-stack-ranking-and-why-is-it-a-problem


Business jargon was also created in the last 100 years:
https://www.rivier.edu/academics/bl...ak-the-history-and-impact-of-business-jargon/

Back to my point, is that the fact that these developed at all is an indication that business will change and does change. If you haven’t seen change it’s because you haven’t been alive long enough and because better ideas haven’t been established long enough to displace outdated ideas.
if stack ranking and business jargon were both three or four hundred years old I would agree with you.
 

Lt_Storm

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I think you’re misunderstanding my point. I was talking about business with regards to business practices, not about business with regards to religious beliefs.

I’ll examine your points:
stack ranking is less than 50 years old:
https://lattice.com/library/what-is-stack-ranking-and-why-is-it-a-problem


Business jargon was also created in the last 100 years:
https://www.rivier.edu/academics/bl...ak-the-history-and-impact-of-business-jargon/

Back to my point, is that the fact that these developed at all is an indication that business will change and does change. If you haven’t seen change it’s because you haven’t been alive long enough and because better ideas haven’t been established long enough to displace outdated ideas.
if stack ranking and business jargon were both three or four hundred years old I would agree with you.
So doctrine isn't a word meaning old or unchanging, instead, it's a word meaning, roughly, official position, with an implication of unthinking, presumed truth, or unchallengeable. And businesses quickly develop their own internal doctrines which are often incorrect and ineffective.

That's why I mentioned things like stack ranking, we have pretty good evidence it doesn't work at all but many companies continue to practice it none-the-less. For them, the effectiveness of stack ranking is a matter of doctrine. And we can find similar examples in pretty much every company. So, no, capitalism doesn't kill doctrine, or at least, it doesn't kill doctrine unless the specific doctrine is broken enough to kill the company.

Indeed, we can go further: capitalism itself is built on it's own doctrine, things like shareholder supremacy, greed is good, business is efficient, etc. Realistically, getting away from doctrine in human endeavors is... difficult.

(As for the mentioning of business speak, well Otherwords recently put a video together discussing how cults use language. The implication is that business speak is a kind of jargon designed to reinforce business doctrine.)
 
So doctrine isn't a word meaning old or unchanging, instead, it's a word meaning, roughly, official position, with an implication of unthinking, presumed truth, or unchallengeable. And businesses quickly develop their own internal doctrines which are often incorrect and ineffective.

That's why I mentioned things like stack ranking, we have pretty good evidence it doesn't work at all but many companies continue to practice it none-the-less. For them, the effectiveness of stack ranking is a matter of doctrine. And we can find similar examples in pretty much every company. So, no, capitalism doesn't kill doctrine, or at least, it doesn't kill doctrine unless the specific doctrine is broken enough to kill the company.

Indeed, we can go further: capitalism itself is built on it's own doctrine, things like shareholder supremacy, greed is good, business is efficient, etc. Realistically, getting away from doctrine in human endeavors is... difficult.

(As for the mentioning of business speak, well Otherwords recently put a video together discussing how cults use language. The implication is that business speak is a kind of jargon designed to reinforce business doctrine.)
Am I right in thinking that what you're implying is that you're equating business doctrine to religious faith? Because while there is certain overlap in technique, I think what you're actually misidentifying is the way humans process information.

Modalities and interactions between people are always going to go certain ways. You can create the same oppressive power structures using capitalism as you can using religion, but there are still big differences.

IMO, and more in line with the original position that there's an unwavering religious dogma that's still calling the shots in a bunch of places, I consider 'business doctrine' to be a kind of fad, compared to religious dogma being something much more permanent and embedded in identity. Both are not evidence-based, both come from an attempt to explain a complex and unknowable world, but the secular kind of dogma tends to fall away as it's proven to be ineffective, whereas religious doctrine has evolved to be hardened against that kind of disposability.
 
Rather than true or false I prefer calling it radical fundamentalist orthodoxy. It’s akin to the radical extremism we see in the Arabic world.
Orthodoxy apparently means “righteous/correct opinion” in Greek so I think it is not a great way to fix this issue. There’s also an Orthodox Church, so I think the term in is too loaded.

I think part of the problem in the US is actually the opposite of (in the generalized sense of the word) orthodoxy—the Catholic and Orthodox churches go to great lengths in their attempt to prove they they are the real successor to the historical church, many of their rules are rooted in precedent, history, and a detailed reading of their books. This results in some pretty slow moving institutions which can’t really keep up with the speed of modern politics.

In the US we have an issue more with a bunch of offshoots of Protestantism, which don’t have that baggage, and can just make up new dogma when it is politically expedient. This allows them to be a wholly owned subsidiary of the Republican Party.

While things are quite bad here nowadays, we should reflect briefly on the absolute horrors that organized religion caused historically, crusades and all that. Disarming organized religion was a big win for secularism in the US. Unfortunately now our religions are all quite disorganized.
 

Shavano

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In the US we have an issue more with a bunch of offshoots of Protestantism, which don’t have that baggage, and can just make up new dogma when it is politically expedient. This allows them to be a wholly owned subsidiary of the Republican Party.
But because they claim that their dogma comes from the Bible, they can make things up and simultaneously claim it has always been that way.