Recs for CNC cutter/router?

Jump to latest Follow Reply
Doomlord_uk

Doomlord_uk

Ars Legatus Legionis
24,892
Subscriptor++
  • #1
    I've decided that I want to be able to do CNC routing and cutting (maybe laser too??? I know there's a thread for that) on a table top, for sheet material up to about, say 70cm by 60cm in area. That includes plastics such as acrylics as well as wood (both ideally up to 25mm depth, and sheet metal (at least aluminium) to say 6mm depth and sheet steel to say 2mm depth.

    Is this something the "3 in 1" 3D printers are ok for, or do I need a dedicated CNC cutter/router? If I had a budget of £1000 for this (at least s/h) and if I went to £2k at a pinch if there was something at that price point that really stood out, are there any recommended options? That budget would have to include the bits, of which I assume I'd need a few for different materials.

    Ideally this machine can be packed away in compact form when not in use, and could happily work on a kitchen table. Dust extraction... would also be an issue I guess.

    I particuarly want to start making parts for custom PC builds using plastic and metal, to cut wood for furniture and possibly speaker-building projects (for which CNC cutouts can be ideal).
     
    Doomlord_uk

    Doomlord_uk

    Ars Legatus Legionis
    24,892
    Subscriptor++
  • #4
    I don't care about assembly, if that's what you're asking. More than happy to spend a few hours bolting it all together, if that saves money. It's the quality of the output that matters. [Edit] - not looking for one of those kits made out of wood...!


    I've been looking at the Snapmaker Ray 40 - anyone familiar with this? It does 40cm x 60cm which would be good enough. It cuts most materials, but steel only to quite a shallow depth, just 0.1mm. I guess routing would be the best way to cut sheet metal though, but the router table (A350T) is too small for larger metal projects (or plastic).
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Defenestrar
    Aurich

    Aurich

    Creative Director
    32,724
    Ars Staff
  • #5
    My CNC is a little bigger than your needs, and a little more expensive than the ceiling of your budget.

    www.onefinitycnc.com

    Onefinity CNC

    Onefinity is the best hobby CNC you can buy backed by the best customer service in the business! All axis ballscrew. Fastest setup of any CNC!
    www.onefinitycnc.com www.onefinitycnc.com

    It's also probably my least-used tool, so my CNC experience is not vast. But, those caveats aside, I can say that I think you might struggle to use something like this as a "kitchen table" kind of deal.

    All CNC's have similar form factors, they've gotta move the router/spindle around with rails of some kind. None of them are that compact, or easy to pack up. Once you build it I would pretty much assume that practically speaking you have to keep it assembled, so your work size + a little extra is your minimum footprint for storing it. Mine is not light, I imagine smaller ones or ones that aren't quite as stiff are better, but still not gonna be casual pick up and move about.

    But all that aside, they're just messy. I have dust extraction, and it works, kinda. You're routing through material with a high speed bit, it's never going to be clean. You can collect a certain bulk of the dust okay (and factor your dust extraction into your space, storage and setup) but it's not something I would ever do inside my house, let alone my kitchen. Maybe a dedicated shop room you didn't mind getting dusty, mine is in the garage.

    If you can get something totally enclosed, looks like that Snapmaker does that, it might help a ton.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Xenocrates, Defenestrar and Doomlord_uk
    Doomlord_uk

    Doomlord_uk

    Ars Legatus Legionis
    24,892
    Subscriptor++
  • #6
    That Onefinity looks pretty nice. People on the forum seem to like it, including Brits who have imported them. It can definitely do the bigger jobs but - as you say - not a 'kitchen table' machine =/ It's absolutely fucking killing me not having workshop space; there's so many things I want to make if I could.

    One thing I hadn't initially considered was how tall these machines are. So 'putting away' may not be an option. I have ideas for storage, but... might be hard sell to the wife. I think I have to abandon the idea of working on big pieces!
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Defenestrar
    Aurich

    Aurich

    Creative Director
    32,724
    Ars Staff
  • #7
    Space is the eternal problem when it comes to tools. You can always save up to buy a nicer CNC, but it ain't easy to save up to add another room onto your house or something.

    So this is a bit of a left field suggestion, but when it comes to a certain form of space-effecient, portable CNC options there's the Shaper Origin:

    www.shapertools.com

    Origin + Workstation = Your Precision Workshop

    Shaper Origin + Workstation combine computer-guided accuracy with hand-held familiarity. Cut with unparalleled precision, flexibility and efficiency.
    www.shapertools.com www.shapertools.com
     
    • Love
    • Like
    Reactions: Doomlord_uk and Defenestrar
    Defenestrar

    Defenestrar

    Senator
    13,341
    Subscriptor++
  • #8
    Doomlord_uk said:
    I don't care about assembly, if that's what you're asking. More than happy to spend a few hours bolting it all together, if that saves money. It's the quality of the output that matters. [Edit] - not looking for one of those kits made out of wood...!
    Click to expand...
    Assembly is one thing, but it is entirely possible to build a CNC from scratch with or without kits to meet your exact needs. But that generally becomes its own project often times way bigger in scope than what you want to build with the CNC unless you're going to do a lot of machining. Rigidity and stability are big components of accuracy and precision. Unfortunately, weight and fixed parts are some of the easiest ways to accomplish that as Aurich alluded to. A portable folding CNC is the enemy of most things people want out of machining.

    It's possible that you build a CNC into some sort of flipping tabletop that becomes a surface for something else (food?! :flail: ) when you're not milling. But you'll have to get creative with cord management (and dust). There are a lot of fully enclosed systems out there like the Carbide 3D Nomad series, but I haven't seen any even close to your budget with the working space you want.

    Aurich said:
    So this is a bit of a left field suggestion, but when it comes to a certain form of space-effecient, portable CNC options there's the Shaper Origin
    Click to expand...
    There's another tool I didn't know I needed to have to add to the list for when the kids finish college (my youngest starts middle school next year). That 2x freehand circle video blew my mind. That list is the most dangerous part of reading this forum :)
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Aurich
    D

    Drizzt321

    Ars Legatus Legionis
    28,408
    Subscriptor++
  • #9
    D

    Drizzt321

    Ars Legatus Legionis
    28,408
    Subscriptor++
  • #11
    headache said:
    One of my buddies helps run a furniture shop and has been debating getting one for inlays and dutchmen on larger table tops. I'm trying to encourage it as much as possible because I really want to play with one.
    Click to expand...
    That's the key, find a buddy who might just buy it, and then you can just keep borrowing it ;)
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Doomlord_uk and Defenestrar
    Aurich

    Aurich

    Creative Director
    32,724
    Ars Staff
  • #12
    headache said:
    One of my buddies helps run a furniture shop and has been debating getting one for inlays and dutchmen on larger table tops. I'm trying to encourage it as much as possible because I really want to play with one.
    Click to expand...
    That’s definitely the best use case imo. It’s not a great big CNC replacement. But the ability to drop it in the middle of any surface and have CNC like precision is pretty sweet.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Defenestrar
    Aurich

    Aurich

    Creative Director
    32,724
    Ars Staff
  • #13
    Alternate thought:

    What about just getting a small, cheap CNC like this: https://www.twotrees3dofficial.com/...y-engraver-desktop-wood-router-cutter-printer

    And just trying it out. It's not a huge investment, it's small enough to maybe store away when not being used, and you could get your feet wet with smaller scale ideas to see if it's worth pushing for something larger.

    I can tell you that my personal experience has been that my CNC is really neat, and also my least used tool. It's just not the first thing I reach for to solve problems, and kind of a pain to set up, use, clean up etc. It's sort of a stressful machine too, moving a physical cutting head around sucks. I always worry (with good reason lol) that I'm going to run into a clamp, or the work will shift or I'll break a bit.

    My laser is so much easier, since it's 'touchless'. Fuckups don't hurt as much, generally.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Demani and Xenocrates
    Xenocrates

    Xenocrates

    Ars Tribunus Militum
    1,660
    Subscriptor++
  • #14
    As someone with a fair amount of experience with various techs being talked about, I want to say something very clearly.

    An all in one CNC machine may do multiple tasks poorly. It may do one OK, but it will have major compromises, or else the other functions will be strapped on. Routing and cutting requires a rigid, precise frame, capable of withstanding torque and shedding debris. Laser cutting requires precision and an absence of debris as much as possible, and if you want to do any kind of raster engraving, then even CoreXY printers are only now getting into the speed ranges required to do larger work pieces in less than multiple days. 3D printing has gone for the lightweight, fast motion system design, where software compensation makes up for the under-built structures (Talk all you want, but that's what input shaping is. Software wallpapering over the fact that the motion system is not actually up to the demands placed on it,)

    Combining the requirements of the various processes gets you into the territory of actual professional machines. I mean, it's perfectly possible to get the sort of speeds that everyone is going to CoreXY in the 3D printing space out of a CNC mill. Haas, which isn't known for making the fastest, or best machines, manages to get 350mm/s cutting speeds on their mini-mills. On the other hand, that machine costs more than my car, and doesn't have probing for the table.

    Figure out what system you actually want, using reasonable entry level tech (And no, those Amazon diode lasers are not entry level, those are death traps. Buy a K40 or similar on Ebay, do not ever buy an un-enclosed cutting laser unless you feel like spending 1K plus on appropriate safety glasses and respirators), and get machines appropriate to the level of use that you will put them to.

    I don't use the X-carve I have much because it's a bit of a noodle for metal cutting (and I've added a 2HP spindle, and was only doing ~3mm brass, with .125" bits), and the laser or other tools work better for other materials. If it were sturdier, I might use it more, but that's not been a priority investment, because for the most part, my projects end up engineered around not using it, because it's a pain in the ass. But that's an example of a dedicated CNC router near the top end of your price range, that won't hit the specs you want (Don't even try to cut sheet steel on it with a stock router)
     
    Aurich

    Aurich

    Creative Director
    32,724
    Ars Staff
  • #17
    Defenestrar said:
    I've wondered why nobody has taken that a step further to make handheld cutters. They're clearly not worried about ethics or legal repercussions as it is, so why not step up the wow factor for a way to stand out from the crowd?
    Click to expand...
    You can get a handheld fibre laser, not sure if anyone is doing it with diode.

    handheld-laser.jpg

    I agree with @Xenocrates, all in one tools are just bad at lots of things. Stick with dedicated hardware.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Doomlord_uk and Defenestrar
    Doomlord_uk

    Doomlord_uk

    Ars Legatus Legionis
    24,892
    Subscriptor++
  • #18
    OK so I'm ruling out any large CNC machine, simply because I can't accommodate one. I think I'm also just going to stay away from lasers for now too.

    That leaves me two options - the Nomad 833, which I can afford to buy s/h - and the Shaper Origin which I can also just about afford s/h.

    The Nomad is quite compact, fully enclosed and I have a corner I can stick it in. I'm not thrilled with its 8" workspace limit but conceivably that would be enough for milling waterblocks from copper, which is what I want to do, as well as smaller acrylic pieces to match.

    It's not totally clear to me yet but the Shaper Origin can also mill copper and acrylic BUT to what depth I don't know. It also might be super-tedious to do a big or complex job given that it's pretty slow with copper and aluminium (100mm a minute, 1mm tramming depth...!) I've sent a message to Shaper about how it works with those materials. It would also kick ass with woodworking for jointing... <3

    That leaves me with wanting to make larger distro plates and manifolds from acrylic. I guess I can just get those cut to size for me and then I can just cut, channel, tap etc etc myself.

    Still not 100% clear but I'm beginning to figure things out :)
     
    S

    slomustang

    Ars Scholae Palatinae
    757
    Subscriptor
  • #19
    I've had the Shaper Origin for about a year now and I have found it to be a wonderful tool...in certain situations, but not all.

    Some of the benefits I've found is being able to take the tool to the workpiece, picking up where you left off, and being able to do some functions on tool via the onboard interface, and dust collection is pretty good connected to a Festool MIDI. Some of the drawbacks I've found are that it can be/is slow (depending on the type and thickness of the material you're cutting into and the design itself), creating fixtures/appropriate size work area for the Shaper to see the tape in all appropriate directions.

    If the majority of what I was doing for CNC projects was repetitive, I would strongly consider a desktop CNC. Also, with a desktop CNC, you may be able to upgrade the spindle to one that has the appropriate RPM settings for metal and other non-wood materials.

    I'm a hobbyist, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt. I'm happy to try and answer questions you may have about the Shaper Origin.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Doomlord_uk and Aurich
    Doomlord_uk

    Doomlord_uk

    Ars Legatus Legionis
    24,892
    Subscriptor++
  • #20
    I'm rather falling in love with the Shaper Origin, despite it's high price. I can think of a whole bunch of use cases for it and even if they don't absolutely REQUIRE it, having it would only make each job better.

    OTOH, whilst the Nomad 883 looks great, would be affordable AND I could probably accomodate one, it would be frustrating buying it knowing I'd be buying another much larger one in the future, or at least always wishing I could. It IS much cheaper (s/h) than the Shaper though... OTOOH (hello AI :p ) it could make a lot of stuff I want. ...
     
    KingKrayola

    KingKrayola

    Ars Scholae Palatinae
    1,077
    Subscriptor
  • #22
    Question on the sheetmetal/aluminium side - are you milling just outlines or pockets?

    For sheetmetal stuff at work we have a contact in Greenwich who laser cut on a pretty good fast-cheap-good balance, and then deburr and drill holes out to size for precision stuff.

    If you can get them secondhand the Roland Modela benchtop CNC/engravers are pretty good (and enclosed).

    Subbing out some laser cut profiling and then machining some small details by setting your zeros carefully.
     
    D

    Drizzt321

    Ars Legatus Legionis
    28,408
    Subscriptor++
  • #24
    Yeah, definitely some things that, unless you're doing it quite regularly, much more cost effective and probably can be done better by outsourcing it to someone who just does that stuff and can afford the even higher end stuff, because it's kept very busy.

    Unless I win a big lotto jackpot. Then I'm going to buy all the toys. And probably let just about any Arsian come by and play with them =D
     
    • Like
    Reactions: KingKrayola
    Doomlord_uk

    Doomlord_uk

    Ars Legatus Legionis
    24,892
    Subscriptor++
  • #26
    ^^^I suspect some of the welding skills used on that program are actually lost now. CAD isn't going to save you there ;)

    I could just send everything out but that's not fun and I do have my eye on the longterm - actually running a side business. It needn't do more than fund the hobby, but it's a goal.

    Anyway, as ever my luck just fell through the floor entirely. Maybe someone in Australia might pick it up... For now, my plans are reduced to a) buying a handheld 3D scanner, b) learning CAD and c) buying a handheld/palm router.

    It sucks knowing that that Nomad Pro 883 is going to probably sell to someone else because I doubt I'll see another one s/h for a long time.
     
    Defenestrar

    Defenestrar

    Senator
    13,341
    Subscriptor++
  • #27
    Doomlord_uk said:
    c) buying a handheld/palm router.
    Click to expand...

    I love my little DeWalt. So easy to control1 and it's got more than enough power to handle anything I'd care to tackle one handed. I have a few attachments, including a plunge base. I'd totally pick it again, although some people swear by the Makita - so that's a good option too. At the time I got mine, both were generally regarded as the best motors for homebuilt CNC systems - so if you ever go that route you're set.

    1You still need to be aware of direction of cut, wood grain, and all the other router basics or it will steer you.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Doomlord_uk
    KingKrayola

    KingKrayola

    Ars Scholae Palatinae
    1,077
    Subscriptor
  • #29
    Have you thought about getting templates laser cut to guide a router? Like custom worktop or guitar building jigs?

    If it's more involved metalwork like manifolds, I think Axminster/Chester/Seig do some small benchtop mills with a factory CNC kit installed. They're not as heavy/rigid as a Bridgeport or full size CNC, but on tge plus side they're not as heavy as a Bridgeport or full size CNC.
     
    You must log in or register to reply here.
    Jump to latest Follow Reply
    Jump to latest Follow Reply