Pondering changes to this forum

Aurich · Nov 25, 2022

FYI after talking to some folk in the Ars Discord it's become clear that:

a) the name of this forum is a little confusing/offputting to some

b) it's not clear enough that people can post projects in here that aren't "I made this with an Arduino" kind of level

c) having it live in the hardware forum is enforcing the impression of b

I would love for more people to feel welcome here, to see this forum as useful, and to post their creative endeavors. You don't have to be soldering or 3D printing to qualify. Making music, knitting, glass blowing, anything creative you're making qualifies.

To that end I'm considering a name change that's less cute and more direct. My top thought at the moment is "Maker Space". It's immediately understandable to anyone in the more traditional maker community, many people use their local maker spaces to build things, but if you're not familiar with the term it's I think more welcoming.

Also thinking maybe the Ars Lykaion is a better home for visibility.

I'd welcome any feedback/thoughts. Also, if you can think of examples of creative things Arsians do, or that you do, that would be nice to call out that would be great. Knitting and glass blowing specifically came up in our Discord talk, why I mentioned them, but the more examples the better really. If you created it I feel like it's fair game.

The only thing I'm thinking exception-wise is that pure programming already has a home here, so maybe keep software-only projects in the Programmer's Symposium.

spiralscratch · Nov 25, 2022

Moving the forum to the Lykaion seems like a good idea. The current location does seem to be a bit of a mismatch.

I'm less sold on the name change. I feel the current name works well with the naming of the other Lykaion forums. "Maker Space" sounds very generic to me. But I have no hard feelings on it.

Wheels Of Confusion · Nov 25, 2022

I'm fine with both of those changes.

Aurich · Nov 25, 2022

So just to explain where I'm coming from a little more, I don't see being "very generic" as a real downside right now. I don't wish to erase forum culture, but if our naming scheme makes things confusing and not get used it's a problem. For any forum. And people are telling me the name is part of that with this one.

I get it too, it sounds very biased towards, well, assembling things. Electronics etc. And we're not trying to be limited to that.

Frankly this forum is seeing very little use, so preserving things from it feels less than essential.

Ultimately people interacting is what matters. If there's a better name suggestion I'm open to thoughts, but this one doesn't feel like it's working. A name change and moving it won't suddenly fix things, but it may help some as we try and encourage more people to come see what we've got here.

doraemon · Nov 25, 2022

I'm OK with the name change. I hadn't realized making stuff in the generic sense would qualify. I was under the assumption it was geared towards 3D printing, soldering, and electronic assembly kind of projects. If it's expanded to anything you create, does that also encompass cooking, writing, and the like? If yes, then making it part of the Lykaion would make more sense.

Aurich · Nov 25, 2022

doraemon said:
I was under the assumption it was geared towards 3D printing, soldering, and electronic assembly kind of projects.

Yeah, you're not alone there, and it's definitely not that limited. Being a maker doesn't need to involve things you can plug in necessarily. This is why the name is problematic, it really implies otherwise.

doraemon said:
If it's expanded to anything you create, does that also encompass cooking, writing, and the like?

I'm gonna say cooking is still a Lounge topic. Writing feels off topic to me if it's not part of a broader project, like making a book or something that's a more tangible product somehow. I don't this is a forum for people to critique short stories or essays, again that's more Lounge.

I agree it can get vague if you're too open ended. My shorthand might be:

If it involves a studio, a workshop, tools, you make it with your hands, or you might sell it on Etsy it's probably fair game.

Cooking isn't really it. Writing not really quite right either. Wood carving, carpentry, knitting, sewing, cosplay, glass blowing, pottery, resin casting, all valid though.

I don't think making a model kit straight out of the box is the right spirit. Customizing models in various ways probably is. Maybe you're 3D printing new parts or adding lights. Being "outside the box".

I might normally say music making, recording, synths, all that stuff could maybe fit, but we have an AV forum, so should probably live there, just like programming has a spot.

That's convenient because it means we can kind of stick to hand made, tangible objects.

Of course this is a home for 3D printing, and Arduinos, soldering, and general geekery still. If you've got a laser cutter, or CNC you're in the right place.

And often a project will cross boundaries, those are the fun ones. 3D printing and woodworking. Glass blowing and LEDs driven by an Arduino. Who knows. Maybe the Arduindo maker and the glass blower actually connect in this forum to help each other.

Having a place for people to share their skills feels not only fun, but a way to learn in cross discipline way that could benefit a lot of different projects.

pasorrijer · Nov 25, 2022

I think perhaps regular cooking, maybe not. But something like molecular gastronomy might qualify

Aurich · Nov 25, 2022

pasorrijer said:
I think perhaps regular cooking, maybe not. But something like molecular gastronomy might qualify

I'm just gonna say that while I appreciate the sentiment I do think it's easier to not be confusing. If people really want a molecular gastronomy thread at Ars I'm so very down, but it still feels like a Lounge topic. Then there's no need to parse narrow definitions. Is a cocktail thread a Lounge thread? What if you add a smoker to it? Liquid nitrogen? Etc etc. Keep the fun drink stuff in the chill Lounge place.

I want this forum to feel welcoming to creators, but certain lines make sense to keep.

doraemon · Nov 25, 2022

So it sounds like crafts in the general sense then, though there is a photography thread in AV, I think? Home Improvement has a thread in the Lounge, so I suppose the split is more making vs fixing?

Xenocrates · Nov 25, 2022

I'd be good with seeing it moved, but I feel like changing the name to maker space isn't quite right. I do agree a name change might help. Then again, the Lykaion has pretty generic names already, so maybe I'm completely wrong as usual.
So to spit ball a few suggestions (not that they are any good):
"Creative's Corner"
"D-I-Why not?"
"The Builder's Bar"

Aurich · Nov 25, 2022

doraemon said:
So it sounds like crafts in the general sense then, though there is a photography thread in AV, I think?

Yes, photography would stay AV.

doraemon said:
Home Improvement has a thread in the Lounge, so I suppose the split is more making vs fixing?

Home improvement is Lounge. It's not 'making' really in the way we're using the word, even if it uses similar skills and tools at times. And not in a judgmental way, and there could be some bleed over, but in general talking about owning a house is Lounge talk. Showing off a custom desk you made is fair game here.

The goal here isn't to poach from the Lounge, or other forums with establishes threads/hobbies/communities, it's just to make more people feel welcome to show off their creative projects here.

Aurich · Nov 25, 2022

Xenocrates said:
"Creative's Corner"
"D-I-Why not?"
"The Builder's Bar"

The reason why I don't like those better is because they either are:

too vague to be helpful

or

still too pigeon-holed.

That doesn't solve the problem with the current, perfectly fine name except for those issues.

Creative's Corner is too broad, for instance writing is a big creative field, and not what we're talking about

D-I-Why not? is both too cutesey, too confusing, and not really inviting, because DIY already has a really defined lane that doesn't include things we're talking about. DIY on YouTube for instance = home improvement by and large

Builder's Bar again not inclusive enough, it sounds like PC building, or carpentry. Nobody refers to knitting or pottery or even wood carving as "building"

Making is a thing. Makers are a thing. You gotta really bring more to the table to beat that for the reasons outlined already. And if you got a better idea I really am all ears, but that's my thought process.

Carhole · Nov 26, 2022

Making, yes; groovy to include more general arts. As much as I’ve been weirded out by the fact that those silly young folks needed to rename “shit that gets built in a shop or elsewhere ‘cause I needed to” to becoming an identity, like you either fight entropy creatively (sometimes without tools, like a true ninja who’s claws are genetic) or sit around and watch shit fall apart and pay to see other things do happenings.

The Cremakening. Where once there was nothing there now is (insert time stamp)

Ooh, oooh, ooohoooohoohh

when forums get favicons it can be a bloody gear! Call it red paint for the squeamish but we all know the truth about that gear and the #11 X-Acto.

Cool Modine · Nov 26, 2022

Maker Space isn't any more useful a title than SAR. If anything, that name reinforces limitations you see in the current name. If anything, it's even more limiting since "maker spaces" usually focus on things like electronics (and Pi / Arduino), CNC, 3D printing, and other modern DIY disciplines, not knitting or glass blowing.

A more useful thing would be to stop locking and punting threads out of here to the Lounge. If anything, it's the moderation / content policies for this sub that have limited it, not the name of the sub. If anything, topics like the Home Improvement thread should be moved here from the Lounge.

Even better, stop paywalling parts of the forum. This forum is a shadow of its former self, and frankly can't afford gatekeeping of any kind if it wants to retain new users.

Aurich · Nov 26, 2022

Cool Modine said:
Maker Space isn't any more useful a title than SAR. If anything, that name reinforces limitations you see in the current name. If anything, it's even more limiting since "maker spaces" usually focus on things like electronics (and Pi / Arduino), CNC, 3D printing, and other modern DIY disciplines, not knitting or glass blowing.

Making, as a terms of art, is well defined beyond what you're suggesting. So I don't actually agree that it enforced more limitations.

Cool Modine said:
Even better, stop paywalling parts of the forum.

Feel free to pay up. None on this stuff exists for free. If you don't want to contribute after being a member here for 22 years then I dunno what to say.

Anyone who would like to participate in the Lounge has an easy option to do so.

Aurich · Nov 26, 2022

I feel like I need to say something here.

If it wasn't for our subscribers the forums would have literally died ages ago. As in we would have pulled the plug because they cost too much to run without the support. The entire reason the subscription system exists was to keep the forums alive in the first place.

So if you like what we do here consider supporting it.

Carhole · Nov 26, 2022

Aurich said:
I feel like I need to say something here.

If it wasn't for our subscribers the forums would have literally died ages ago. As in we would have pulled the plug because they cost too much to run without the support. The entire reason the subscription system exists was to keep the forums alive in the first place.

So if you like what we do here consider supporting it.

I’m glad that you mentioned this. It may seem silly that people of all backgrounds need a reminder in 2022 that Actual Work goes into making the forums and Actual Money gets spent hosting and so forth, so perhaps there’s a marketing opportunity buried in this suggestion. My little ‘noob sponsorship thread’ over I n teh Lounge could be greatly expanded on, as and example, say a FP introduction to the forums including a bit of mention of the tiered pricing and why we like to keep content here extremely well moderated, and a dedicated core of users are always looking to interact with new subscriptors (maybe insert some history here). I’d be happy to hash this out a bit more if you’re interested in getting a hand with it from a “public” perspective stewed in the private side of membership. Consider something along those lines after y’all complete whipping out the new features and migrating bugs elsewhere.

KingKrayola · Nov 27, 2022

Neutral on the name change. I do this kind of stuff for a living, and 'Maker' always feels a bit under-ambitious/amateurish but I get the use of it as a general label. Have been tempted to post some pictures of my shop at work as I'm quietly proud of it and want to show it off, and I can't be bothered with some of the more elitist/mansplainy forums like practical machinist or some of the woodworking fora.

I don't know if it's a matter of getting folks active in the meatspace world posting on Ars, or if there isn't enough of a subset of regular readers to get many posts.

Is the ars discord where all the kids go? Or is it more of a subset of mods and lifers who interact with the editorial team? Is it just that at some point more new people will want to be on more of an IRC type thing than a forum?

Am I right in thinking the new forum software allows images to be hosted here? That'll take some of the hassle out of posting.

hyperactive · Nov 27, 2022

On the heels of the article about Nixie switches, the mechanical keyboard builds may be another example of creative activity. I just also saw a home grown e-m noise to sound project so there is a area of music/audio hobbies that could fit, too.

hyperactive · Nov 27, 2022

Oh what about fermentation! I remember there was a whole beer thing, but you also have all the sourdough going on. Or is that more cooking than making, the way the molecular gastronomy is.

von Chaps · Nov 27, 2022

Aurich said:
I feel like I need to say something here.

If it wasn't for our subscribers the forums would have literally died ages ago. As in we would have pulled the plug because they cost too much to run without the support. The entire reason the subscription system exists was to keep the forums alive in the first place.

So if you like what we do here consider supporting it.

Couple of things to chip in as a newbie subscriber and not from the US...

"Maker Space" feels quite exclusive and techy. It's a geeky sounding title; which might be fine. It doesn't alienate me, but it does scream 3d printers and Arduinos. Maybe it's very a US-centric term?

Perhaps you could quantify the effect that subscriptions actually have on the forums. I mean, I wanted to subscribe to support Ars in general, but only a few forums require it, so it doesn't "feel" critical or of massive value (even though it is). The way you put it, subs are only funding the forums and not Ars journalism - is that true?

AdorableSnowman · Nov 27, 2022

Some Assembly Required looked like it would be kits before it checked it out. I agree with von Chaps that Maker Space sounds very techy and somewhat implies high levels of craftsmanship.

Ideally a name would stress creativity and not discourage traditional crafts like the quilt my sister gave me or the poorly carpentered treasure chests I made for my nephew and nieces.

Creative Pursuits

Exercising Creativity

Ideas Made Real

Edit: I just re-read Aurich's initial post and think he had a good name in there "Creative Endeavors"

Dmytry · Nov 27, 2022

A significant fraction of what I build is various scientific instrument related tinkering - a scintillation counter, field mill, Van de Graaff generator, that kind of stuff. Sometimes more biological, I made a couple enclosures for monarch caterpillars last year (to keep wasps from eating them, parasitoid flies from parasitizing them, etc).

I've been posting those to observatory for the most part.

edit: How's about Creative & Tinkering ?

As far as "maker space" goes that does really sound like 3D printing and other highly computerized activities, for some reason.

AdorableSnowman · Nov 28, 2022

Dmytry said:
A significant fraction of what I build is various scientific instrument related tinkering - a scintillation counter, field mill, Van de Graaff generator, that kind of stuff. Sometimes more biological, I made a couple enclosures for monarch caterpillars last year (to keep wasps from eating them, parasitoid flies from parasitizing them, etc).

I've been posting those to observatory for the most part.

edit: How's about Creative & Tinkering ?

As far as "maker space" goes that does really sound like 3D printing and other highly computerized activities, for some reason.

If puns are ok "Creative Tinkers"

phlaym · Nov 28, 2022

I agree with the sentiment, that "Maker's Space" sounds super techy, although that might be my PCB-green colored glasses. Another community where I'm active has that section <Community>-Crafters (with the community name placed there). I quite like the "crafters" in there to be hones

alaure · Nov 28, 2022

Riffing on Dmytry and AdorableSnowman's suggestions: "Tinker, Tailor, Solder, DIY"?

Wheels Of Confusion · Nov 28, 2022

alaure said:
Riffing on Dmytry and AdorableSnowman's suggestions: "Tinker, Tailor, Solder, DIY"?

"From Cosplay to CNC, post the crafting projects you make that make your day!"

AmigaPhreak · Nov 28, 2022

What about "Arts and Crafts"? If you want to be as clear as possible, that would seem to be the most generic and recognizable way to cover the sorts of activities people are doing here (or could be doing here, if they weren't scared off by the forum name or whatever).

The dictionary definition contains "...promoting handcraftsmanship over industrial mass production". Seems appropriate.

I was involved in a small part with the original forum name and I think part of the reason it was chosen was to be consistent with the general goofiness of some of the others (Soapbox, The Lounge, Boardroom). But if it's undesirable to do this any longer, then change it. I'd rather have more users.

Jehos · Nov 28, 2022

I really, really like the Maker Space name idea. That's already a thing, a lot of people know what they are, and the topics you're trying to add are exactly the things that happen in maker spaces.

For example, Dallas Makerspace has these areas:

3D Fabrication
Automotive
Blacksmithing
Ceramics
Creative Arts (scrapbooking, arts & crafts, etc)
Digital Media
Electronics
Glass Works
Jewelry / Small Metals
Laser Cutting
Machine Shop (mills, lathes, CNC)
Metal Shop (cutting, bending, welding)
Printmaking
Wood Shop

Other than digital media which is mostly photography, every single one of those would belong in this forum.

Aurich · Nov 28, 2022

KingKrayola said:
Neutral on the name change. I do this kind of stuff for a living, and 'Maker' always feels a bit under-ambitious/amateurish but I get the use of it as a general label. Have been tempted to post some pictures of my shop at work as I'm quietly proud of it and want to show it off, and I can't be bothered with some of the more elitist/mansplainy forums like practical machinist or some of the woodworking fora.

Please post your work, I'm already curious and would love to see it. Shop pics a big plus!

KingKrayola said:
Is the ars discord where all the kids go? Or is it more of a subset of mods and lifers who interact with the editorial team? Is it just that at some point more new people will want to be on more of an IRC type thing than a forum?

The Discord is for anyone who wants to use it, no elitism or requirements. It's really just for people who find a 'live' chatting experience valuable. We don't heavily promote it, letting the growth be slow and natural. Here's an invite link that expires in 7 days for anyone who wants to check it out:

Discord - Group Chat That’s All Fun & Games

Discord is great for playing games and chilling with friends, or even building a worldwide community. Customize your own space to talk, play, and hang out.

discord.gg

KingKrayola said:
Am I right in thinking the new forum software allows images to be hosted here? That'll take some of the hassle out of posting.

Yup! You can find details on how it works with extra tricks here:

The Ars OpenForum: handy tips and power user features documented

Aurich · Nov 28, 2022

hyperactive said:
On the heels of the article about Nixie switches, the mechanical keyboard builds may be another example of creative activity.

This is a good example for where lines are drawn I think:

Build your own keyboard? Post it here

Buy it off the shelf? Other Hardware

Just swapping keycaps on a stock keyboard? Ehhh ... the idea is to have some build energy exist and that's pretty minimal. Maybe a perpetual keyboard build thread where the effort for a single post in it can be low, that's not really enough to justify starting a new thread.

Aurich · Nov 28, 2022

von Chaps said:
Couple of things to chip in as a newbie subscriber and not from the US...

"Maker Space" feels quite exclusive and techy. It's a geeky sounding title; which might be fine. It doesn't alienate me, but it does scream 3d printers and Arduinos. Maybe it's very a US-centric term?

It's definitely not a US-centric term, the maker community is global and so long as people are using English it's used all over. I tend to be from the Adam Savage school:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUsBoLT1Yv8

With the exception of things that already have established homes. So I don't want to say programming isn't part of creative expression, but we have a forum for that already. Same with music, we have the A/V club. Writing is really a Lounge topic. So keeping this forum to "physical craft" I think is open enough.

Aurich · Nov 28, 2022

phlaym said:
I agree with the sentiment, that "Maker's Space" sounds super techy

Also I do want to just note that we are Ars Technica. Super techy is kind of our bag. So I'm not really opposed to leaning in that way. I don't want to try and hide that part of who we are.

It's tricky, I want to encourage people to share. I also feel like it's okay to have at least a low bar to cross for something to be worth sharing.

So for instance this:

AmigaPhreak said:
What about "Arts and Crafts"?

I'm not really looking for an arts and crafts forum. That's not really the right vibe. This is a home for geeks, and the primary focus on what we do is geekery.

I want to see your creative endeavors! I want us to be a good place for cross discipline thinking, and to see what you're passionate about. Also, this is going to probably have more 3D printing than quilting, and that's okay.

tl;dr I want to be welcoming to all makers, and also not try and hide the fact that we have a bias towards Arduinos over whittling. I know that's hard to encapsulate, which is why it might take some feeling through.

Aurich · Nov 28, 2022

AmigaPhreak said:
I was involved in a small part with the original forum name and I think part of the reason it was chosen was to be consistent with the general goofiness of some of the others (Soapbox, The Lounge, Boardroom). But if it's undesirable to do this any longer, then change it. I'd rather have more users.

I'm definitely not trying to flush our culture or be boring, but yeah, it's just become clear that being a little too cute like:

alaure said:
"Tinker, Tailor, Solder, DIY"?

isn't helpful. It's not that it's a bad name! Neither is Some Assembly Required. But they're too easy to misunderstand and gloss over, and we're too low on participation to afford that kind of thinking right now. A name change alone won't fix things, but it's part of a start.

The content is what's important, and if people post cool stuff here and it becomes a forum you look forward to seeing then that's what will count the most.

Aurich · Nov 28, 2022

Jehos said:
I really, really like the Maker Space name idea. That's already a thing, a lot of people know what they are, and the topics you're trying to add are exactly the things that happen in maker spaces.

For example, Dallas Makerspace has these areas:

3D Fabrication

Automotive

Blacksmithing

Ceramics

Creative Arts (scrapbooking, arts & crafts, etc)

Digital Media

Electronics

Glass Works

Jewelry / Small Metals

Laser Cutting

Machine Shop (mills, lathes, CNC)

Metal Shop (cutting, bending, welding)

Printmaking

Wood Shop

Other than digital media which is mostly photography, every single one of those would belong in this forum.

This is what I'm talking about. I totally get not everyone immediately vibes with the name or understands what it means, or knows what it means but their local maker space had only X.

No name can convey it all, look at how much text I'm writing just to try and express the idea. :judge:

But maker spaces like what @Jehos just described are pretty common. It's a good shorthand I think. If I seem married to the idea it's because it serves the function I need it to, and if anyone has a name that does so better I'm all in. But as much as I appreciate the creative suggestions they've tended to be more "fun" than "useful" and we're just in a space where being more utilitarian in our language is I think necessary.

katespace · Nov 28, 2022

I love the move, I’m not sold on the name. I would never think to post a knitting project in a “Maker Space”, yet that’s one of the things you call out as being on topic for the forum. Wikipedia even redirects “makerspace” to the entry for “hackerspace” so I don’t think the folks saying makerspace conjure visions of machining and tech stuff only are far off the mark.

How about “The Spare Room” or “The Crafting Corner”? “The Hobby Nook”?

Aurich · Nov 28, 2022

Here's what a Maker Space is for: it's a place you go to use tools you might not have at home (space, cost, frequency of need, whatever).

It's a place you go to learn new tools.

It's a place you go to be surrounded by like minded geeks, who will encourage your making, and help you if you get stuck or need ideas.

It's a place to share your projects, because your partner or friends might be not as enthused (or tired of it!)

That's what I would hope this forum would be. Got a project? Please share. Working through a problem? Maybe someone can help. Don't know the right tool for the job? Someone might.

This is a place for geeks, but maybe your sitting/standing ultimate desk build needs wood working, as well as stepper motors. Maybe your Ghostbusters cosplay needs 3D printing, and Arduino programming for the LEDs, but also sewing.

Being open, and cross discipline is how we can help each other, how we learn, and enjoy each other's process.

BitPoet · Nov 28, 2022

I really like "Creative Endeavors" it's very inclusive of lots of different things, and implies the personal rather than "I hired contractors to renovate my living room". Moving it to the Lyakon seems like a wonderful thing.

I think pretty much anything creative can be super nerdy, and having a place that is more inclusive for that is a good thing. Excluding people who are being super nerdy about sourdough, or weaving, but includes 3d printing and woodworking is a pretty odd line to draw, IMHO.

Especially when you go dig up people creating Turing Complete weaving looms, or breeding up the right yeasts for sourdough, or... Ars as a group gets nerdy fast in places. Nudging people to create a thread on the "new" forum when the discussion goes from calligraphy pens to researching papermaking, ink making, and creating your own nibs? That's the sort of thing I'd think we'd want.

Aurich · Nov 28, 2022

katespace said:
I love the move, I’m not sold on the name. I would never think to post a knitting project in a “Maker Space”, yet that’s one of the things you call out as being on topic for the forum. Wikipedia even redirects “makerspace” to the entry for “hackerspace” so I don’t think the folks saying makerspace conjure visions of machining and tech stuff only are far off the mark.

This is 100% a fair criticism.

I'm also going to say that while your knitting is totally welcome, and not in any way lesser, I think it's appropriate for Ars to err on the side of techy for first impressions. This line we're talking is so fine that I feel like I've written 20 posts just trying to find it lol.

I'm asking for an impossible need thread here, there's just no way to perfectly encapsulate it all. I think nothing will do that more than people just posting and activity.

von Chaps · Nov 28, 2022

Aurich said:
So keeping this forum to "physical craft" I think is open enough.

...and there it is!

Pondering changes to this forum

Creative Director

Ars Tribunus Militum

Ars Legatus Legionis

Creative Director

Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius

Creative Director

Ars Scholae Palatinae

Creative Director

Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius

Ars Tribunus Militum

Creative Director

Creative Director

Ars Legatus Legionis

Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius

Creative Director

Creative Director

Ars Legatus Legionis

Ars Scholae Palatinae

Wise, Aged Ars Veteran

Wise, Aged Ars Veteran

Ars Centurion

Wise, Aged Ars Veteran

Ars Legatus Legionis

Wise, Aged Ars Veteran

Ars Praetorian

Seniorius Lurkius

Ars Legatus Legionis

Ars Legatus Legionis

Ars Legatus Legionis

Creative Director

Creative Director

Creative Director

Creative Director

Creative Director

Creative Director

saddest oompa loompa

Creative Director

Ars Legatus Legionis

Creative Director

Ars Centurion