Older used Apple TV's usefulness as a Home Hub and for streaming? Models and TV OS support?

Thinking of getting a few old cheap used Apple TVs for a Home Hub or just for streaming Netflix content to my parents' TV, so they won't have to watch it on their computer monitor (they have a dumb TV by choice, which I profoundly support).

The key word here is cheap – I don't even have a TV myself at home, and theirs is only HD, so no need for the latest 4K HDR whatever.

My main concern is TV OS updates. Currently, the last Apple TV version still supported is A1625, or the "4th gen" ("Apple TV HD"). I'd guess it might not get much support anymore with its old A8X CPU, as the equivalent iPhones don't.

I have like two different usage requirements:
  1. Apple TV for me used mostly solely a Home Hub, without any TV at all and with a HDMI splitter to send SPDIF audio to my sound system, the display being some old 17" LCD monitor. Basically mostly just for Home Hub automation, as the updated Home architecture no longer supports the old iPad hub that did that role previously.
  2. Apple TV for them, for streaming Netflix and AirPlay movies from Ventura and Sonoma Macs to their old HD TV. HD only, no HDR.
What's the oldest Apple TV that would do the above jobs? I am not really that versed in the compatibility of the various Apple TV versions with various Mac OS versions, various AirPlay et cetera. I'd have thought that the A1625 is still supported (even if it's a guess for how longer), but how about the previous one (3rd gen)? Would it at least still work with current AirPlay and Netflix? Or would I go better with the 5th gen (the first 4K model)? I'd guess the 3rd gen is pretty deprecated, being 32bit only, or would it still work as a new Home Hub?

Thanks for any suggestions!
 

OrangeCream

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You can also use HomePod Mini as a hub:

But if you need the display output, the yes you want an Apple TV. Given that the latest 4k TV is $129 and Amazon sells a refurbished 2nd gen 4k for $159, 1st gen for $139, and HD for $125, I would recommend buying new from Apple.
 
You can also use HomePod Mini as a hub:

But if you need the display output, the yes you want an Apple TV. Given that the latest 4k TV is $129 and Amazon sells a refurbished 2nd gen 4k for $159, 1st gen for $139, and HD for $125, I would recommend buying new from Apple.
Unfortunately, the prices are really different in my locale. I can get a 3rd gen used Apple TV for basically a few quid, although that one is no longer supported and quite likely a bad idea. The 4th gen one is still pretty cheap used, compared to the newest one. And given the very limited use I'd need it for, I'd prefer to go as cheap as possible, hence no option of getting the latest one.
 

OrangeCream

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Unfortunately, the prices are really different in my locale. I can get a 3rd gen used Apple TV for basically a few quid, although that one is no longer supported and quite likely a bad idea. The 4th gen one is still pretty cheap used, compared to the newest one. And given the very limited use I'd need it for, I'd prefer to go as cheap as possible, hence no option of getting the latest one.
Ah I don’t realize that you were in the UK.

I would still stick to the cheapest 4K if only for more future runway.
 

japtor

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For your parents' one, Netflix still works back to the 2nd gen even, according to this support doc. I'd be worried about support long term but I guess they'll support stuff as long as they can. One other part of the equation would be AirPlay. Should be fine, barring Apple introducing some random bug impacting AirPlay 1 only.

Or get a cheap modern Roku with AirPlay 2 support, if you're ok with that on your network. If available in your country at least.

For yours, yeah one of the 4K ones. Depending on price I'd lean towards the 2nd gen with A12 cause I could see that one lasting a bit longer support wise beyond the A10X one.
 

Bonusround

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None of the TVs through the 3rd gen have an App Store – you’re at the mercy of whatever ‘channels’ Apple puts/keeps on the screen. Additionally, these models cannot be HomeKit hubs. The 2nd gen is 720p output, 3rd is 1080p.

The 4th gen HD model should be your baseline choice, IMO. This is the first ’modern’ TV platform that includes an App Store. It does everything you need for both of your use cases. Personally, I suspect Apple will continue providing updates for these models, including the HD, for years to come – thus keeping them viable platform for streamers/app providers like Netflix.

FWIW
 
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mpat

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None of the TVs through the 3rd gen have an App Store – you’re at the mercy of whatever ‘channels’ Apple puts/keeps on the screen. Additionally, these models cannot be HomeKit hubs. The 2nd gen is 720p output, 3rd is 1080p.
Since I’m using an AppleTV 3rd gen in a rarely used location: the streaming channels that you can still use on it are Netflix, Prime Video and AppleTV+. That last is really finicky, however, as there is no native support for 2FA and you need to work around it a bit. It still works for mirroring content off an iPhone, however, which is how I use it.

AppleTV 3 can absolutely act as a HomeKit hub, but only if there are no newer AppleTVs in the same network. If there is a 4 or better, that feature is disabled.

Note that the AppleTV 3 has an optical out and an Ethernet port, something missing from newer models.

All this said - I would never spend any money on one. I use this one because I bought it when it was the new hotness, and it is paired with an old TV of the same vintage. If I bought one today, I would buy the newest model.
 

mpat

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Ethernet is not present in the current base model; that’s an upgrade feature.
Exactly. In the last update, Apple dropped the price of the base model AppleTV but did so by removing Ethernet and the ability to act as a Thread border router. Since the conclusion of my post was that OP should probably buy that model, I wanted to be clear that the AppleTV 3 actually has two small advantages over that model.
 

Lew Zealand

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The performance of the HD model is unacceptable these days IMO. Even if you don’t have a 4K TV get a 4K model.
Unacceptable how? I've got two of them connected to 1080p televisions and they work just fine for the major streamers and for displaying photos from iCloud. I have no idea how they work as a gaming platform because I don't use them that way. Maybe that's where you are drawing the line?
 
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Ah I don’t realize that you were in the UK.
Not anymore, I'm in the EU now – the Tories and the Brexit certainly helped that. But still, some phrases like "just a few quid" roll off the tongue a bit more easily than "just a few euros" – I guess it's just the pronunciation as it sounds better ;-) Still, I'd like to save money on a device that would only get some occasional use.
For your parents' one, Netflix still works back to the 2nd gen even, according to this support doc. I'd be worried about support long term but I guess they'll support stuff as long as they can. One other part of the equation would be AirPlay. Should be fine, barring Apple introducing some random bug impacting AirPlay 1 only.
I have since found some reddit posts complaining about pairing with AirPlay 1 devices like TV 2 or 3 on modern Macs, some saying it only works up after connecting from an iPhone, but not from the Mac, unless woken up from an iPhone first. That sounds pretty buggy and a bit concerning, especially for any further Mac OS updates. It seems the TV 3 is AirPlay 1 only?

The Netflix channel would probably still be fine for them, though, as long as they support it. Although I'd prefer AirPlay support without any quirks when they watch movies from other sources, which might require a later model.
AppleTV 3 can absolutely act as a HomeKit hub, but only if there are no newer AppleTVs in the same network. If there is a 4 or better, that feature is disabled.
Thanks. That would be fine, but searching further, it seems there are some problems with Home Hub on TV3? Like that it doesn't support the advanced features like geofencing and such? Only supporting timed automations? Could you please clarify? Cheers!
That‘s not untrue. I have a spare one, wouldn‘t mind providing it to the OP to check it out if shipping from Germany is cost effective.

Drop me a PM if you want to give it a try …
Will do! Thanks!

My apologies for bothering you all, it's just that I find the whole infrastructure with some older Apple devices so confusing. I know it works perfectly on the latest ones like mine, but getting to what exact features are cross‑compatible with some specific older ones can be pretty hard at times. I didn't even know there are now two AirPlay system versions before this thread...
 

kefkafloyd

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Unacceptable how? I've got two of them connected to 1080p televisions and they work just fine for the major streamers and for displaying photos from iCloud. I have no idea how they work as a gaming platform because I don't use them that way. Maybe that's where you are drawing the line?
The user interface responsiveness, for one. I finally got a 4K Apple TV last year (my HD/4th Gen one was a 2014 vintage) and the difference in usability is immediately noticeable. It still played videos, but app loading times and UI responsiveness are losing out to time.

Also, it's an A8, an iPhone 6-level SoC introduced in 2014. It's a decade old this September. It's the oldest device Apple still supports with software updates. I wouldn't be surprised if it gets the boot this year.
 

mpat

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It seems the TV 3 is AirPlay 1 only?
Yes. The AppleTV 3 is using an OS based on iOS 8. The upside to this old OS is that it actually is decently Snappy™️ despite using an SoC from the iPhone 4S, but the downside is that features like this aren’t there. That said, mirroring from the phone works fine for me.
Thanks. That would be fine, but searching further, it seems there are some problems with Home Hub on TV3? Like that it doesn't support the advanced features like geofencing and such? Only supporting timed automations? Could you please clarify? Cheers!

I don’t know how I could test that. I used the AppleTV 3 as a home hub long long ago, and it is now in a network with an AppleTV 4K, which disables those features entirely. Back when I used it, Homekit was very limited and I only used it for turning on certain lamps based on when the sun went down.
 

Bonusround

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Thanks. That would be fine, but searching further, it seems there are some problems with Home Hub on TV3? Like that it doesn't support the advanced features like geofencing and such? Only supporting timed automations? Could you please clarify? Cheers!
A year or two back Apple performed a significant rev of the HomeKit stack to make it Matter-compatible. I could be wrong, but it’s my understanding they did not bring this to the TV3.

Personally, I would not rely on a device for HomeKit hub duties which could not be updated. I’ve seen TVs only slightly behind on version updates (e.g. 16.5 vs 17.0) have difficulty with hub duties. YMMV
 

gabemaroz

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Problem is getting audio to the sound system. Otherwise a solid recommendation. The Belkin Soundform Connect has Digital / Analog audio out and acts as an AirPlay 2 receiver but it doesn't work as a hub and it runs US$79, no idea European prices. Do you already have an HDMI splitter @DovePig?

Honestly I wouldn't go any older than the 4K (any of the three generations) as far as AppleTVs themselves go.
 
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japtor

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For your parents' one, Netflix still works back to the 2nd gen even, according to this support doc. I'd be worried about support long term but I guess they'll support stuff as long as they can.
Guess my worries were founded, 2nd and 3rd gen losing support soon:


And saw in another thread, Verizon has the WiFi only Apple TV for $90:

 
Thanks to the lovely people (cheers again!) here on Ars, I was able to try the "latest" officially unsupported model, TV 3rd gen. (anything older would likely be a paperweight by now, unless running Linux on it).

I'll try to add my findings on what still works and what doesn't anymore, editing my post as I try more things, for any future reference for any others who might be interested in up‑cycling such an old, unsupported and obsolete device, e.g. at a cottage or as a simple streaming box for people who don't ever want to connect their "smart" TV full of ads and spyware to the internet (the case here).

Up‑cycling obsolete Apple devices for good uses can be fun, but obviously you inevitably run into some limits as the systems and cloud architecture changes, so I hope my post might be helpful to others. Mind you, there might be also some security issues with using obsolete devices, but that can be hopefully mitigated by keeping the obsolete device strictly on the LAN part, even if zero or heavily firewalled WAN access prevents any streaming (I'd still have to further investigate if the local sharing features even work without any WAN handshake with Apple servers).

Quite obviously, any of that might change at any moment, just like the above‑mentioned Netflix soon dropping service on TV3, but here is hoping at least the very basic features might still last a while.

So far, for TV3:
  • WPA2 wifi only, obviously. No WPA3, best to use an ethernet cable. TV OS 7.x is old, so initially connecting via ethernet doesn't let you set up wifi. Weird.
  • iCloud login doesn't work at all – totally deprecated. Hopefully not needed much anyway, as most of the cloud features it tied into were deprecated as well.
  • iTunes login does work, enabling some iTunes/Music and sharing features.
  • Home Sharing does work (though yet to test in Sonoma), so it can still likely be used to play compatible (likely H.264 only) movies and music in your own library, which can be pretty nice (even via TOSLINK to connect to your home stereo if you have one with optical input, though I haven't tested that yet).
  • H.264 HD movies in your own library do seem to work via Home Sharing. Even up to HD H.264 movies. Haven't tried other codecs yet.
  • Home Sharing music does seem to work, as per above.
  • Netflix does still work, but per a post further above might be deprecated soon.
  • Music and films bought on iTunes (now TV and Music stores) yet untested.
  • TV+ subscription yet untested, but might require iCloud sign‑in (which doesn't work). No idea yet if it works with just iTunes sign‑in.
  • Podcasts' syncing yet untested, but might require iCloud sign‑in (which doesn't work). No idea yet if it works with just iTunes sign‑in.
  • Other streaming services (like the Disney+, Amazon Prime and a few others it supported back then) yet untested.
  • AirPlay 1 seems to be a bit of a hit‑or‑miss. Needs more testing. Older host devices might work, newer ones might not. Needs more investigation. I surmise that AirPlay 1 will soon or have been already deprecated in all the newer OS versions, but I'll have to test this further. Probably best to consider AirPlay 1 as not working at all, just to be sure.
Mind you, that's for TV3, which is basically iPhone 5s times – a decade ago.

TL;DR: Even a functionally quite obsolete TV3 can still serve some media-centre functions as of now, but with obvious limitations. Still quite enough for some up‑cycling use cases, at least in a limited time frame. Going over to the (still supported so far, though that might change any moment) 4th gen. TV HD or the later TV 4K 1st gen. model would be obviously safer for up‑cycling, but so far even the old TV3 might still fulfil some use cases, at least for some time – hopefully...
 
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japtor

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Looking at eBay prices just now I'd consider just getting the Verizon ATV deal if you don't mind it being WiFi only. Going to older generations doesn't seem to save that much, I'd maybe consider a few listings like around $50 but anything much more ehhh might as well get a new one.

Course there's probably better deals on the local sites/services like FB marketplace and such.
 

Hap

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Local share should require zero access to the internet-at-large. No handshake with Apple, just peer2peer casting across an ad-hoc wifi connection.
What is local share?

Not Home Share as you mentioned before (which does seem to occassionally need to check in with Apple for protected content, even if downloaded) and not AirPlay...
 
And what of Home Hub duties?
That's quite likely totally out for TV3, since you can't sign in into iCloud on it, only into iTunes. And the few Apple support posts I found earlier said that its functionality as a Home Hub was pretty limited, even when it was still partially supported. You better get a newer TV model for that.
 
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gregatron5

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I have an TV 3 that I rarely use. Netflix works… fine, but as mentioned is going away. The last time I used it was to stream HBO Max to it. It was a bit macro-blocky at first, but otherwise fine. I'd assume casting Netflix will be fine, too, but I haven't done it yet.

You can run Linux on these things? I'd love to set this thing up as an ersatz Pi.
 
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I have an TV 3 that I rarely use. Netflix works… fine, but as mentioned is going away. The last time I used it was to stream HBO Max to it. It was a bit macro-blocky at first, but otherwise fine. I'd assume streaming Netflix is fine, too, but I haven't done it yet.
I'd be interested if you ever got AirPlay working on it, and from what devices (AirPlay 1 might still work, but it's pretty much unclear which newer devices still supports that). Also interested what other streaming services still work on it (TV+ for example).
You can run Linux on these things? I'd love to set this thing up as an ersatz Pi.
Not sure, really – there are jailbreaks for older TVs out there, but I haven't gone that way yet.
 

japtor

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I'd assume casting Netflix will be fine, too, but I haven't done it yet.
There could be oddities like Netflix blocking it or some funkiness with protected outputs or whatever. No clue if AirPlay 1 vs 2 has differences as far as protected content streaming, but have had issues with third party implementations of AirPlay 1 like with random cheap projectors.
 

gregatron5

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I did some spelunking. It looks like there was a DNS-based certificate loading exploit that was active 4 years or so ago, but is no longer online. That said, the unit runs Darwin 14, which is probably too old to build anything useful on anyway. I haven't found anything that suggests Linux has been ported to the hardware, either, so that seems to be a dead-end, too.

I was hoping to run it as a headless Pi substitute to put Home Assistant on, but it'd probably be better to just buy a Pi4 or 5 and let that old box live out its days as an airplay target until it gets replaced and sent to the great recycle bin in the sky.