2025 Apple Devices

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wco81

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  • #1
    Early for this thread but a source lays out Mac plans, specifically involving OLED displays:

    In 2025, a year after the OLED iPad, Apple will launch the 14.0-inch and 16.0-inch OLED MacBooks, followed by a 20-inch foldable OLED MacBook and 32-inch and 42-inch OLED iMacs.

    The industry generally predicts that OLED iPads and MacBooks will use the red (R) green (G) blue (B) OLED technology of the "double stack tandem" structure being developed by LG Display and Samsung Display. By stacking the light-emitting layers into a two-layer double-layer series, compared with the "Single Stack" method used in smartphones, the screen brightness can be increased by 2 times, and the product life can be increased by 4 times. RGB OLED refers to a technology in which RGB sub-pixels are deposited next to each other in an emissive layer using a precision metal mask (FMM) in an evaporation process.


    However, there are mixed opinions in the industry regarding the OLED technology applied to the OLED iMac. There are predictions that the OLED iMac may also use the dual-stack series RGB OLED developed by LG Display and other companies for IT products, and there are also predictions that the White-OLED and QD-OLED technologies that are currently mass-produced as large-size displays will be used. W-OLED is LG Display, and QD-OLED is Samsung Display's mass-produced technology for large-size displays such as TVs.
    Click to expand...


    Not familiar with this source nor the Korean source that they reference in the article. There's a bit of wishful thinking on my part because I've been waiting a couple of years to upgrade Macs and if there's any chance of these rumors becoming reality, I'd wait another year.

    The MacBook Pros using the same dual tandem display used in the M4 iMac Pros is believable. The 14 and 16-inch displays are not too much bigger than the 11 and 13 inch displays in the iPP.

    The 20-inch foldable OLED for a MacBook and 32 and 42-inch OLED iMacs seem less likely. One reason is that these models don't carry the premium pricing which the iPP and MBP models have and these larger OLED displays would be costly. Plus Apple has balked at making iMacs with Apple Silicon larger than 24-inch displays for over 3 years now and they're going to jump to 32 and 42-inches?

    The article does hedge it's bets, the larger 32 and 42 inch display wouldn't be dual tandem displays like those in the iPP, so it wouldn't be as costly to make nor as bright. It may not render HDR as we'll as the brighter dual tandem OLED displays.

    OTOH, 32 and 42-inch OLED displays are now being adopted for the desktop monitor market by several other makers so if Apple does want to ship a larger display for the desktop, they may not be able to stay at 27 inches.

    Article concludes by conceding that the speculation on the iMac is very uncertain:

    At present, the OLED iMac development project has not been carried out concretely, and there are different opinions on the technical outlook of the OLED iMac. It is expected that Apple will finally determine the technical method based on the future prospects of the IT product market, the technology development of panel manufacturers, product costs and other factors.
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    Whether or not they do a large iMac with OLED, once they upgrade the MBPs, they're going to want something better than the Apple Studio Display, since not only is it not OLED ut it's not HDR either.

    People who buy OLED MBPs in the next year or two would want a bigger display which is closer in PQ to the OLEDs on their MBPs.
     
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    OrangeCream

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  • #2
    wco81 said:
    The 20-inch foldable OLED for a MacBook and 32 and 42-inch OLED iMacs seem less likely. One reason is that these models don't carry the premium pricing which the iPP and MBP models have and these larger OLED displays would be costly. Plus Apple has balked at making iMacs with Apple Silicon larger than 24-inch displays for over 3 years now and they're going to jump to 32 and 42-inches?
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    20” foldable seems a stretch to me.

    A 32” also seems absurd, though a 27” iMac Pro would fit perfectly in the lineup. Slap an M3 Pro or M4 Pro and a 27” screen and I think it’s a winner.
     
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    wrylachlan

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  • #3
    There’s just no way the economics work out to make 32” with a OLED the entry level iMac. They have to keep a 24” or 27” LCD-based device in the lineup to hold down the entry level price points. Though I suppose we could make sense of the rumor by assuming they will make the LCD iMacs M-1 relative to the larger iMacs so they wouldn’t be introducing a new entry level iMac in 2025, just giving the existing iMac say a $100 price cut and then introducing the larger models above that.

    Gotta wonder though how many displays are worth it for such a small niche. If they retain the 24” iMac and the 27” Cinema Display and add these two models, that’s 4 (assuming the 32” will do double duty in a replacement for the XDR). It feels like something’s gotta give there. Would they move the entry iMac up to 27” and consolidate the supply chain with the Cinema Display?
     
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    wco81

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  • #4
    This iMac rumor is too good to be true, at least for my POV Because I want to replace my 7 year old iMac 5k.

    But whether they make more expensive iMacs, which could cause problems with the Mac Studio, they need a better large HDR display product, for the MacBook Pros, Mac minis, Mac Dtudios.

    The bar is going to be raised, not just from Apples own products (MacBook Pros with OLED) but third parties producing OLED monitors, not to mention better mini LEDs.

    displays aren’t huge revenues for Apple but a high end display may be halos for some MBP buyers.

    thats assuming that Apple is relying only on virtual displays and expecting most of their users to buy the AVP.

    i would sooner pay $3500 for a large, bright OLED display around 40-45 inches than spend that money on an AVP.
     
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    amateurpro

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  • #9
    wco81 said:
    Not familiar with this source nor the Korean source that they reference in the article.
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    INF.news may be "a misinformation front for the Chinese government", but rumors from the site they paraphrase, The Elec (which they don't bother to link to), are regularly reported on by sites like CNET, PCMAG, and Android sites like AndroidAuthority and AndroidPolice.

    That said, I don't give much credence to the large iMac rumors. I think the niche market segment for such large desktops is too small for Apple to shoulder in terms of design, shipping, storage and repair.
     
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    wrylachlan

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  • #12
    Bonusround said:
    Why not? It doesn’t hurt to have a halo display. Apple have offered several throughout the years.
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    I’m on the fence here. Before the XDR, their ‘halo displays’ were all introduced at a halo cost but rapidly dropped in price over their lifetime. They were early models of a technology that was ramping up in volume and coming down in cost. If you bought early you paid an early adopter fee, but they soon came down to mass market pricing and Apple was able to increase sales volumes accordingly.

    In contrast the XDR is blisteringly expensive with no real likelihood that the underlying tech will grow much volume or come down in price. And there’s little hope that sales volumes will grow at this price points. And the reason is that the display market as a whole has reached “good enough” for so many people that there just isn’t much market pressure to bring high end display technology down to mass market pricing.

    So in this new world what does Apple do? Keep offering perpetual halo products that have no hope of ever coming down in price and picking up volume? AIM a little bit lower like the Cinema Display? Try to find new technology that does have some price reduction runway?

    My sense is that Apple should just continue to offer 2 displays - mass market and halo.
     
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  • #13
    wrylachlan said:
    I’m on the fence here. Before the XDR, their ‘halo displays’ were all introduced at a halo cost but rapidly dropped in price over their lifetime. They were early models of a technology that was ramping up in volume and coming down in cost. If you bought early you paid an early adopter fee, but they soon came down to mass market pricing and Apple was able to increase sales volumes accordingly.
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    I don’t recall Apple’s halo displays – meaning their largest-available at-the-time Cinema Display – ever working like that. The biggest model always price-anchored the category until it was replaced by a larger model still.

    The original Cinema Display was a $4,000 affair in 1999 dollars. IIRC the last of these, the 30” Cinema, received a minor price cut over its six-year run but never dropped below $3,000 asking. After the 30”, Apple’s next halo display appeared in the Retina 5K iMac and, famously, was never sold as a standalone unit by Apple.

    wrylachlan said:
    In contrast the XDR is blisteringly expensive with no real likelihood that the underlying tech will grow much volume or come down in price. And there’s little hope that sales volumes will grow at this price points. And the reason is that the display market as a whole has reached “good enough” for so many people that there just isn’t much market pressure to bring high end display technology down to mass market pricing.
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    I agree. The XDR‘s tech seems like a dead-end. It’s up to OLED to save us.

    My understanding of OLED manfuacturing is that, once a given dot pitch (density) has been achieved on the line, it’s only a matter of efficiently cutting the giant master glass into individual screens. Meaning, once somebody can produce a 218 DPI 27” OLED then there’s nothing holding back a 32”, 36” or 40” equivalent. Further, the marginal cost of the display scales close to linearly with the increase in screen area. Not that this will have any bearing on Apple’s ultimate asking price, considering a sizable percentage of Apple’s COGS is a function of their very beautiful and very expensive display housings.

    Now, when will LG or Samsung or BOE fire up an OLED line at desktop retina density? That’s the $1B question.
     
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  • #14
    Bonusround said:
    My understanding of OLED manfuacturing is that, once a given dot pitch (density) has been achieved on the line, it’s only a matter of efficiently cutting the giant master glass into individual screens. Meaning, once somebody can produce a 218 DPI 27” OLED then there’s nothing holding back a 32”, 36” or 40” equivalent. Further, the marginal cost of the display scales close to linearly with the increase in screen area.
    Click to expand...
    Nothing about the large panel OLED pricing trends over the last 5-6 years leads me to believe that a 32” tandem OLED introduced next year will be anything other than still blisteringly expensive in 2030.
     
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  • #15
    wrylachlan said:
    Nothing about the large panel OLED pricing trends over the last 5-6 years leads me to believe that a 32” tandem OLED introduced next year will be anything other than still blisteringly expensive in 2030.
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    Especially a 32” tandem OLED at desktop retina density in an Apple-designed display housing.

    But this is what Apple halo displays are for: those who want something top-of-its-class, beautiful, leading-edge, Apple-specific, and for whom price is no object.

    The next question should be: how much will Apple charge for their 27” tandem OLED? If history is a guide, Apple‘s smaller, non-halo displays will be more likely to drop in price over the next six years – if Apple continues to make them.

    Also, this little nugget:
    Nothing about large panel OLED pricing trends over the last 5-6 years …
    Click to expand...
    Is demonstrably untrue or misleading at best. Look at the television market, specifically LG. There are OLEDs all over the PC space, both laptops and monitors, that did not exist five years ago due to prohibitive cost of the tech. Prices continue to drop. You know not of what you speak.
     
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    OrangeCream

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  • #17
    ant1pathy said:
    I'm still personally shaky about OLED for computer displays. Too many static elements, I'd be constantly paranoid about burn-in. I have an OLED TV that's strictly for video content (and the Apple TV screensavers). The gaming tower is on an LED panel.
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    Isn’t that the whole point of the tandem oled technology though? Half the brightness per pixel, 4x the longevity, and almost no burn in?
     
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  • #19
    Bonusround said:
    Prices continue to drop. You know not of what you speak.
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    I can’t find an OLED TV of any kind at my nearest Best Buy for less than a grand. If they’re dropping it’s not by enough. And those are mass market TV screens. The idea that a tandem OLED in desktop pixel densities at 32” is going to see any meaningful economies of scale over the next 5 years seems dubious to me.
     
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  • #21
    wrylachlan said:
    I can’t find an OLED TV of any kind at my nearest Best Buy for less than a grand. If they’re dropping it’s not by enough. And those are mass market TV screens. The idea that a tandem OLED in desktop pixel densities at 32” is going to see any meaningful economies of scale over the next 5 years seems dubious to me.
    Click to expand...


    I remember when HDTVs cost over a grand. The last two I bought were under $400.

    Now OLEDs are under a grand and I’m looking forward to the near future when they cost $500
     
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  • #23
    OrangeCream said:
    Now OLEDs are under a grand and I’m looking forward to the near future when they cost $500
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    Yep. And don’t forget that $899 today was $732 five years ago.

    wco81 said:
    The good ones like the Sony QD-OLED are still $3300-3500 for the 65-inch.
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    Sony charges a spiffy premium. They’re the halo TV of the QD-OLED set.
     
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  • #24
    wco81 said:
    The good ones like the Sony QD-OLED are still $3300-3500 for the 65-inch.
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    They price their mini LEDs similarly:

    I think it just means Sony is expensive.


    LGs mini LED product is almost as cheap as Sony’s cheapest 65” TV:
     
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  • #25
    As for dedicated computer monitors, 32” 4K OLEDs are a ‘bad compare’ because they’re effectively new (this is their first model year), but the 27” class have been out for several seasons now. Here’s what we see:

    32” at 4K: $999

    View: https://www.amazon.com/INNOCN-Computer-Monitor-Type-C-DCI-P3/dp/B0BC7DPLD8/


    27” At 1440p: $596

    View: https://www.amazon.com/LG-UltragearTM-Monitor-nVIDIA%C2%AE-Compatible/dp/B0BRBW8KRK

    Both are full 240Hz, HDR, VRR displays.
    Edit: the 32” is 60Hz, the 27” 240Hz.

    There’s also a 48” OLED at $799:

    View: https://www.amazon.com/LG-48-Inch-Refresh-AI-Powered-OLED48C2PUA/dp/B0B94JD6Y6/
     
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  • #27
    wrylachlan said:
    I can’t find an OLED TV of any kind at my nearest Best Buy for less than a grand.
    Click to expand...
    Problem solved.
    NB: buying the previous year’s model online can further save quite a bit.

    wrylachlan said:
    If they’re dropping it’s not by enough.
    Click to expand...
    Six years ago a sub-$1000 OLED TV was unheard of, and that’s before inflation kicked in.

    wrylachlan said:
    The idea that a tandem OLED in desktop pixel densities at 32” is going to see any meaningful economies of scale over the next 5 years seems dubious to me.
    Click to expand...
    Let’s not move the goalposts. What you describe above, especially at desktop retina density, is entering halo monitor territory for reasons previously discussed. And when Apple bundle an M2, iPhone camera, 5.1 speakers, and spend 4.2 machine hours CNC’ing every display housing it’s going to cost a pretty penny.
     
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  • #28
    Bonusround said:
    Problem solved.
    NB: buying the previous year’s model online can further save quite a bit.


    Six years ago a sub-$1000 OLED TV was unheard of, and that’s before inflation kicked in.


    Let’s not move the goalposts. What you describe above, especially at desktop retina density, is entering halo monitor territory for reasons previously discussed. And when Apple bundle an M2, iPhone camera, 5.1 speakers, and spend 4.2 machine hours CNC’ing every display housing it’s going to cost a pretty penny.
    Click to expand...
    You mean barely 2.0 speakers, right ;)? The .1 is a subwoofer, and I'm pretty sure they're not shipping surrounds with them.
     
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  • #29
    ant1pathy said:
    You mean barely 2.0 speakers, right ;)? The .1 is a subwoofer, and I'm pretty sure they're not shipping surrounds with them.
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    Right. I was kinda tryin’ to make a point about Apple’s impulse for building-in increasing amounts of tech in effort to keep their perceived value prop and ASPs high and their margins healthy.
     
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