Thank You Microsoft - Gripes about MS Updates and Modernization Deprecations

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pasorrijer

pasorrijer

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  • #1
    So the purpose of this thread is sort of a catch-all, triggered by @jhodge on the Discord.

    Often Microsoft makes an update, or a change, that relegates a useful niche product feature to Oblivion... often as they transition from On-Prem to O365.

    The hopes for this thread is a place for y'all to put your gripes and rants about these "Gotchas", for two purposes.

    1) Because it's cathartic and can warn others
    2) In the hopes that someone, somewhere, has a workaround that will save the day.

    (Skoop, I've tried to posit this as technical as possible but if it's too loungey feel free to move)
     
    jhodge

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  • #2
    I”ll start - “new” Outlook doesn’t support offline mode. Theoretically it’s coming in April, but it’s pretty much the end of April, and it’s still not available.

    techcommunity.microsoft.com

    New Outlook Working Offline: Rollout Date Moved to May 2024

    ***Update 4/26/2024: The date has changed from January to May. Microsoft 365 Roadmap | Microsoft..
    techcommunity.microsoft.com
     
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    AdrianS

    AdrianS

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  • #4
    Our software installs the (official) FTDI USB serial driver to talk to our hardware.

    We have now had two of our customers contact us because their system stopped working.

    Why? Because a MS update uninstalled the FTDI driver and replaced it with one for a Braille keyboard!

    Needless to say, they weren't using anything like that.




    Note: the main reason we have to install that driver is because otherwise Windows keeps misidentifying our hardware as a fucking serial mouse! Even though there's an actual USB mouse present.

    Windows has done this forever - if there's data coming in any real or USB serial comms device when Windows boots up, it decides its a 20 year old serial mouse.

    When Windows makes this mistake it renders the whole system unusable because the cursor jumps about randomly and submits false clicks, which has been a Windows bug since forever.

    There used to be a registry key to disable this behavior (which changed with every Windows version of course), but we haven't found a reliable way to stop this on Win10 & 11.
     
    Paladin

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  • #5
    I'm guessing that means your hardware is not working right. I have booted hundreds of machines with various serial devices attached (USB to serial and native serial ports with devices attached) and I haven't have a problem like that since Windows 98SE or something. The only common serial port complaint I run into these days is that when you plug a USB to serial adapter into a different USB port than before, it gets assigned a different COM number. Annoying but hardly a real problem.

    My main gripe with Microsoft is that they drag their feet on soooo many things that need moderization while they push out useless change after useless change on things that basically worked really well already and maybe just needed a cosmetic update to bring them into line with new interface design standards and UI implementations.
     
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    AdrianS

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  • #6
    Paladin said:
    I'm guessing that means your hardware is not working right. I have booted hundreds of machines with various serial devices attached (USB to serial and native serial ports with devices attached) and I haven't have a problem like that since Windows 98SE or something. The only common serial port complaint I run into these days is that when you plug a USB to serial adapter into a different USB port than before, it gets assigned a different COM number. Annoying but hardly a real problem.

    My main gripe with Microsoft is that they drag their feet on soooo many things that need moderization while they push out useless change after useless change on things that basically worked really well already and maybe just needed a cosmetic update to bring them into line with new interface design standards and UI implementations.
    Click to expand...
    Nope.
    Nothing wrong with the hardware.

    The issue happens when there's a steady stream of binary data coming in while the PC boots up.

    Search for terms like "crazy mouse" and you'll see reports going back years, for multiple Windows versions.
     
    Paladin

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  • #7
    AdrianS said:
    Nope.
    Nothing wrong with the hardware.

    The issue happens when there's a steady stream of binary data coming in while the PC boots up.

    Search for terms like "crazy mouse" and you'll see reports going back years, for multiple Windows versions.
    Click to expand...
    No I mean the part where it gets identified as a mouse to start with. If it's not a user input device, it should not get a driver loaded that tells the operating system to classify it as a user input device. Every device is supposed to have a unique hardware ID string that tells the operating system what it is and what driver it needs. If your hardware is causing windows to think it is a serial mouse or a braille keyboard, I would assume that its hardware ID is matching one or both of those products. We all know that 'unique IDs' only go so far before they get recycled or used by someone else. I've repeatedly run into hardware that simply had a wrong ID or no ID and the manufacturer expected you to jump through hoops to get a good driver working. Of course, it could never survive a big windows update without more hoop jumping because Windows would look for new drivers and it would get all messed up.
     
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    AdrianS

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  • #8
    If that is the case, then many off the shelf USB serial devices have the wrong hardware id.
    We have seen this happen with multiple USB serial converters from several manufacturers, not just our own.
    When I'm back at the factory I'll check what hardware id they are reporting.

    And the Braille keyboard driver substitution is a completely seperate WTF.
     
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  • #9
    AdrianS said:
    If that is the case, then many off the shelf USB serial devices have the wrong hardware id.
    We have seen this happen with multiple USB serial converters from several manufacturers, not just our own.
    When I'm back at the factory I'll check what hardware id they are reporting.

    And the Braille keyboard driver substitution is a completely seperate WTF.
    Click to expand...
    Well, the adapter isn't what's sending an ID for the device that's connected to it. (Most of those adapters probably have the same chipset , or the same line of them, regardless of the manufacturer.) Perhaps the issue is simply that the serial devices you have connected don't HAVE a hardware ID that Windows recognizes, or none at all, since serial devices generally aren't Plug'n'Play, so it just assumes that it's a serial mouse by default if it receives data on startup. (Of course that's still a stupid thing for Windows to do. It should not change drivers for devices that aren't PnP. The registry key you were using probably disabled "auto driver install" for non-PnP devices.)

    The fact that is happens with both real and USB serial devices shows it has nothing to do with the USB adapter (unless the "real" ports are on an adapter card that actually uses the same USB to serial chipset with a bridge to PCI/PCI Express). The fact that Windows removes the FTDI driver and installs something else is a separate issue, and that COULD be due to a particular chipset that's in the adapters used on those systems, if they're shitty adapters with a shitty chipset, or weird firmware for a particular brand. (I don't think there are actually that many of of such chipsets made.)

    Another thing that maybe is happening is something like the USB ports or connected devices initializing in a different order sometimes, so that Windows detects it as a "different" adapter and then also misidentifies it. Is it truly removing the FTDI driver from the system, or is it just installing the adapter as a new drive and not using the FTDI driver?

    There are discussions here about registry keys to prevent Windows from changing the driver for certain devices based on the hardware IDs.

     
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    AdrianS

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  • #10
    Lord Evermore said:
    Well, the adapter isn't what's sending an ID for the device that's connected to it. (Most of those adapters probably have the same chipset , or the same line of them, regardless of the manufacturer.) Perhaps the issue is simply that the serial devices you have connected don't HAVE a hardware ID that Windows recognizes, or none at all, since serial devices generally aren't Plug'n'Play, so it just assumes that it's a serial mouse by default if it receives data on startup. (Of course that's still a stupid thing for Windows to do. It should not change drivers for devices that aren't PnP. The registry key you were using probably disabled "auto driver install" for non-PnP devices.)

    The fact that is happens with both real and USB serial devices shows it has nothing to do with the USB adapter (unless the "real" ports are on an adapter card that actually uses the same USB to serial chipset with a bridge to PCI/PCI Express). The fact that Windows removes the FTDI driver and installs something else is a separate issue, and that COULD be due to a particular chipset that's in the adapters used on those systems, if they're shitty adapters with a shitty chipset, or weird firmware for a particular brand. (I don't think there are actually that many of of such chipsets made.)

    Another thing that maybe is happening is something like the USB ports or connected devices initializing in a different order sometimes, so that Windows detects it as a "different" adapter and then also misidentifies it. Is it truly removing the FTDI driver from the system, or is it just installing the adapter as a new drive and not using the FTDI driver?

    There are discussions here about registry keys to prevent Windows from changing the driver for certain devices based on the hardware IDs.

    Click to expand...

    Windows doesn't (usually) change the driver, it just decides our device is a mouse, rendering the PC unusable until our device is unplugged or turned off.
    But only if its sending while windows boots.
    This has been standard windows behaviour since at least XP, but for some reason they removed the ability to disable it as a system-wide registry setting (SerialEnum).
    Most devices have the ability to turn off this behaviour in the driver properties page, but Windows default is to assume it's a mouse.

    We handle the mouse issue by not installing the virtual com port driver at all, and talking to the device via the FTDI driver. This also solves the issue of Windows remapping the Com port number when you change USB ports.
    So that's a solved problem, just annoying that in 2024 Windows11 still blindly assumes anything serial is a mouse by default.

    I know we could write new firmware to support plug-and-play or more handshaking, and upgrade every device out there, (30 years worth of them), but this is more a minor annoyance with an acceptable solution.


    The Braille keyboard issue:
    I think Windows is uninstalling the FTDI driver and replacing it with LibUSB, but I can't recall for sure.
    It has only happened to two customers out of many (so far), and we still don't know what triggered it.
    Your link looks like a promising way of solving that problem, thanks.


    ps The FTDI USB-Serial chip is vendor 0403, product 6001
     
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  • #11
    Commie64 said:
    New Outlook doesn't support linking inboxes. Makes it a non-starter, for me.
    Click to expand...
    I try and stay open-minded to new things, but the New Outlook was definitely one step forward and like six or seven steps back. We ran into that linked mailbox issue as well as (and maybe its changed now, but it was an issue when I last tried it) the fact that the unread mail special folder will not group unread messages based on the sub-folder they are located in and that is a major issue for me.
     
    Enigma990

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  • #17
    The "New" outlook is not intended (AFAIK) as a replacement for the O365 'fat' outlook. Its to replace the old 'Mail' app.

    No local PST files, linked box issues, etc.. Ask me how many tickets our corp userbase has submitted for 'shared mailboxes dont work' or 'i cant open my archives any longer.. I cant fathom why they overlapped the built in Mail replacement as outlook... name it Outlook_Lite or some thing else.

    As far as serial / USB shenanigans, after a recent update all of our USB-to-Serial's that we use to console into gear; Win 11 updated the driver to a version that is oddly wont work. Most of them are Prolific devices and the old Windows 7 driver works, however if you load it and reboot, you have to play swap the driver. Stupid Windows 11 'updates' to 3.9.x.x which wont work. So each reboot you have to swap the driver.
     
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  • #18
    Enigma990 said:
    The "New" outlook is not intended (AFAIK) as a replacement for the O365 'fat' outlook. Its to replace the old 'Mail' app.
    Click to expand...

    Enigma990 said:
    I cant fathom why they overlapped the built in Mail replacement as outlook... name it Outlook_Lite or some thing else.
    Click to expand...

    They are working towards creating a single Outlook. "One Outlook" is the project name, and it's clearly going to be the "cheapest way of coding the app possible with many features eliminated" version, but Classic Outlook will probably still be available for several more years. They've been making it confusing since Outlook Express came out in 1997 which had zero connection to Outlook and was just the renamed Internet Mail and News. Users of full Outlook are shown prompts to "try new Outlook for Windows" even though it doesn't have most of the functionality equivalent, and full Outlook's interface is being converged toward the web app appearance in advance of the underlying code changing so people won't be in for such a shock. Outlook for Windows is essentially an early version of the full-fat Outlook client they eventually intend to release and make the ONLY version of Outlook. Home Windows users are getting to beta test it for the people that pay for Office (as well as any Office users who make the mistake of clicking the "try me" link), with the promise that it gives them so much more than the Mail app. Everything else bundled in Windows, up to the Mail & Calendar app in Windows 11, was basically just a re-skinned version of the old Internet Mail and News app.
     
    LordDaMan

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  • #19
    The mail program included in windows is a lot more confusing than that. Internet mail and news became the vista and windows 7 version. Then there was windows live mail, which was a completely different client around windows 7-8 timeframe. Thne the window s8 mail came out, which again was a completely new mail client, which morphed into the mail in windows 10 and 11. That kinda-sorta became the new outlook, but not really since it's kinda-sorta like an electron app (only based on webview2) or at least the Ui is
     
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  • #20
    LordDaMan said:
    The mail program included in windows is a lot more confusing than that. Internet mail and news became the vista and windows 7 version. Then there was windows live mail, which was a completely different client around windows 7-8 timeframe. Thne the window s8 mail came out, which again was a completely new mail client, which morphed into the mail in windows 10 and 11. That kinda-sorta became the new outlook, but not really since it's kinda-sorta like an electron app (only based on webview2) or at least the Ui is
    Click to expand...
    I forgot they switched to "Live Mail" with Vista and Windows 7. It's so frustrating when they come up with a new marketing name and quickly pivot EVERYTHING to use that whether it makes sense or not, like every app became the Live version for a while, and there was the Windows Live bundle of stuff which they made hard to unbundle, and now it's all 365.
     
    LordDaMan

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  • #21
    Lord Evermore said:
    I forgot they switched to "Live Mail" with Vista and Windows 7. It's so frustrating when they come up with a new marketing name and quickly pivot EVERYTHING to use that whether it makes sense or not, like every app became the Live version for a while, and there was the Windows Live bundle of stuff which they made hard to unbundle, and now it's all 365.
    Click to expand...
    The windows live suite was (mostly) based around windows live services.. It was also decoupled from windows so they could add whatever they wanted, much faster iterations, and can't be sued over something like integration with their services.

    Also I don't know why people keep saying you couldn't unbundle parts of it. There was an ars article about it, which was 100% wrong in the fact that one could easily install what parts you wanted from the suite and skip the rest. Simple uninstall also.


    On a semi related note. Microsoft released the source code for windows live writer (the blog tool) and it lives on as Open Live Writer. Wish Microsoft would do that more often for discontinued products.
     
    jhodge

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  • #22
    A big, hearty “thank you” for the protracted roll-out of “new” Teams and it’s constantly changing, but consistently broken, notifications. And tendency to forget who contacts are (shown as “unknown user”). And poor synchronization with mobile. All of which is intermittent and thus he’ll to troubleshoot or document. Truly, it is the gift that keeps on giving!

    Example thread: https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us...y/d2666682-fcf2-4a0d-ba10-9b4832060509?page=1
     
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    MadMac_5

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  • #23
    jhodge said:
    A big, hearty “thank you” for the protracted roll-out of “new” Teams and it’s constantly changing, but consistently broken, notifications. And tendency to forget who contacts are (shown as “unknown user”). And poor synchronization with mobile. All of which is intermittent and thus he’ll to troubleshoot or document. Truly, it is the gift that keeps on giving!

    Example thread: https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us...y/d2666682-fcf2-4a0d-ba10-9b4832060509?page=1
    Click to expand...
    How hard can it be to make a messaging app that syncs messages when you load it? I mean, really? Signal and Google Chat do it without too much trouble at all. I don't care if New Teams can do an AI-assisted summary of my meeting, I want it to fulfill basic functionality more than anything else.
     
    Enigma990

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  • #25
    Lord Evermore said:
    I forgot they switched to "Live Mail" with Vista and Windows 7. It's so frustrating when they come up with a new marketing name and quickly pivot EVERYTHING to use that whether it makes sense or not, like every app became the Live version for a while, and there was the Windows Live bundle of stuff which they made hard to unbundle, and now it's all 365.
    Click to expand...
    Dang.. i completely forgot about the old Mail and 'Live Mail'.. Thanks for jogging my memory...
     
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