Clone bootable 2TB MBR 3 partition to a 4TB GPT bootable 3 partition

videobruce

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I have a 2TB MBR drive w/ W7 in the 1st partition. Partitions 2 & 3 are used as separate storage.
I want to xfer all of that to a 4TB GPT drive including resizing the 2nd & 3rd partitions. Most of that storage material are mp4 movies.

I realize the MBR to GPT problem due to the drive sizes, but I wanted to use a 'image' of Win7 to go in the 1st 32GB active partition. Transferring that data isn't a issue, it's xfering the MBR W7 to a GPT W7 in that 1st partition w/o the hassle of re-installing Windows
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I have AOMEI Partition Assistant which I just got and never used, but my images are from True Image 2019 that I've been using for some time now. Can I setup a clean HDD to GPT, making it bootable & active then using one of the other programs restore that image to that 1st partition?

Hope all of that made sense.
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Lord Evermore

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You talk about both having the drive and having images so I'm a little confused. If you just have backup images from True Image, you can just use True Image to restore it, and TI can resize the partitions to be the same relative sizes, or you can manually adjust the sizes during the restore, or you can make it keep them exactly the same. If you have the actual drive, you can clone it using True Image and do the same thing. (I'd give a little more than 32GB to the OS partition unless it never does anything but serve those files or something very basic where it would never need anything else installed.)

When you clone a drive, or restore images, they restore to the same partition style. True Image and other tools won't convert it during the clone/restore, and you can't "pre-set" the new drive's type as it gets overwritten by the clone/restore. The new drive should boot just fine with the MBR format after you've copied the data/images. Then install AOMEI PA and convert it to GPT. MBR only supports PARTITIONS up to 2TB, but the actual drive can be larger. So as long as you don't try to allocate more than 2TB to a single partition during the clone/restore, you'll have no problems. If you want one of them to be larger than 2TB, you can just clone them with no change in the partition sizes, and use AOMEI to resize them after you've converted to GPT. (Keep in mind it may take an enormous amount of time to resize since it has to move so much data around.)

The only limitation during the clone/restore you'll have is that all the partitions have to at least start within the first binary 2TB, so you can't quite use a full 4TB in binary, however it should be possible to use a full drive that is marketed as 4TB (because it's not really 4TB in binary). Meaning, the first partitions can be any sizes up to just under 2TB in total, and the last partition can then use whatever is remaining which will be like 1.8TB according to Windows in binary. But after you've converted it to GPT then you can resize them to whatever you want.

If you have the actual drive and it's actually up and running, you could just install AOMEI and convert it to GPT first, then during the clone you can perform the resizing, which would save a lot of time by not having to clone the data then resize it again later. Or plug it into another machine and use AOMEI to convert it before you do the clone.

And, of course, if this machine would ever be plugged into the Internet, upgrade it to Windows 10 or Windows 11 immediately. Or if it's just a media/file server that you don't really touch, install Linux on the new drive and just copy the data files over.
 

videobruce

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I ordered a 4TB drive to replace a older 2TB. The existing HDD has 3 partitions, the 1st being active with a backup of W7 Pro x64. I've done this for decades and very rarely had to use it. ;) The other 2 partitions are for storage, one being mp4 movies and audio recordings. The other partition is a backup for my programs and files. I have multiple backups for my data, programs media etc.
The 1st partition is active w/ W7 that is the problem since this older drive is MBR.

My immediate question is; can I (using a utility like this) create a small active/bootable partition to house a 'clone' of my existing W7 to a small main partition (32GB) in this new GPT formatted drive?

I don't understand this "binary" limit. This 2 TB partition limit within a 4TB drive would be a problem as I would want at least a 3TB partition, if not a 3.5TB for my media. My existing 4TB has a partition larger then 2 TB with no issue.
 
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Lord Evermore

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You keep using confusing phrases. What is "active with a backup"? Until I can figure out what you're talking about, I can't give specific information. Are you trying to clone the current Windows 7 hard drive to a new drive to use in the same computer? Or do you have a backup image file, like Windows7.tib, that is just sitting on the hard drive of your current PC and you want to put that Windows 7 image on a new drive on a new computer?

You CANNOT just clone an MBR drive to another drive and have it be GPT in one step. Even if you configure the new drive as GPT, cloning will wipe that configuration and clone the format of the previous drive. That's the definition of cloning. You have to clone it then convert it, or convert it then clone it. If you are using True Image to restore a .tib image file, it will restore the partition style that's in the image, so you have to restore then convert. (If you were just copying individual partitions, then that's just a data copy, not an image/clone of the drive, but it wouldn't make the destination drive bootable.)

In binary, 1KB is 1024 bytes, and each step up multiplies by 1024. In marketing (and SI units), 1KB is 1000 bytes, and each step up multiplies by 1000. Operating systems work with binary exclusively. MBR has a 2TB binary partition limit, which results in a limit of just under 4TB in total drive size (you have use a bigger drive you just can't partition the space). The binary units were redefined as kibibyte, mebibyte, gibibyte, tebibyte, etc. (versus kilobyte, megabyte, gigabyte, terabyte) but still used the same abbreviations, but many of us ignore that because it was the stupidest thing ever done just to let marketers rip people off.

2TB binary means 2048GB, or 2,097,152MB. Hard drives are marketed as "2TB" when they are actually only 2000GB in binary, or 2,000,000MB. A 4TB hard drive is only 4000GB in binary, so the OS will show that it's about 3.9TB.

You can use MBR on the new drive as long as the first two (or 3) partitions total less than 2048GB in binary, and the last partition starts at the mark below 2048GB binary. Then the last partition can use up the entire rest of the space, which could be the maximum 2TB in binary. So you have 3900GB in binary available. You could have a 500GB partition, then a 1400 GB. That adds up to 1900GB or 1.86TB in binary which is below the 2TB binary limit, so the third partition can start there, and you could make it 2000GB (1.95TB). Total usage on the drive is 3900GB in binary, or 4000GB according to marketing.

If, on the other hand, you made the first partition 700GB, and the second partition 1400GB, that would total 2100GB or 2.05GB, and MBR would NOT ALLOW YOU TO ADD a third partition. The address of the beginning of the partition has to be below 2TB.

If you're restoring an image file, just restore it. Don't worry about anything else. When prompted regarding partition sizes, tell True Image to keep the source formatting. You will end up with a bootable MBR drive. Boot it up, install AOMEI, and convert it to GPT. Then you can create whatever partitions you want, as large as you want, as many as you want (up to 128). You can also convert the old drive to GPT if you want, without losing data, and then you can transfer files and repartition or whatever you want.

If you are CLONING the existing drive, then you can do the same thing, and select only the first Windows 7 partition. Or you can install AOMEI and convert it to GPT before you clone it. The result will be the same.

If you are cloning ALL the partitions, then install AOMEI first and convert it to GPT. Then during the clone, you can resize them to whatever you want, including making a 3TB partition.
 

Paladin

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Unless you have some very tricky or complicated programs on the existing install, I would just do a fresh install of a single partition on the new drive. Copy over whatever you need from the old one and keep the old one as is for a backup until needed for something else. Cloning is fine in some cases but you have probably reached the point where it is causing you more problems than it is solving. A fresh install might make your life easier.

But if you want the clone, then Lord Evermore has basically covered it.
 

videobruce

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Sorry again, I use the term active to mean it has a bootable operating system. This is not a 'new' PC. This 'backup' O/S (D drive) is just a basic W7 O/S without all the additional programs the Main O/S (C drive) that is on the SSD. C and D both have W7. C is on a SSD w/ a MBR due to it's small size drive it's on and a 2nd partition for 'portable' programs. That doesn't get changed.
 
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Entegy

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Windows 7 cannot switch to UEFI booting without a reinstall, unlike Windows 10. UEFI firmware is required to boot from a disk with a GPT partition table.

In other words, you cannot use that 4TB disk as your boot disk with your current Windows 7 install. If you want to keep 7, you will need to reinstall. I've also found that many Windows 7 install ISOs seem to be missing the required files to successfully UEFI boot for whatever reason. You also need to check if your hardware even has UEFI firmware.

If you are unwilling to use a modern OS, or your hardware has no UEFI firmware, then that 4TB can only be used as a data disk.
EDIT: Also, depending on the age of the hardware, it might not even recognize the 4TB disk. Some (now) very old hardware couldn't even recognize disks that large. Check that by plugging in the disk to your current PC as a secondary disk in the motherboard and see if you can format all 4TB in Disk Management.
 
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videobruce

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The MB has UEFI and I have had it set to use that and legacy. I already have a data drive that is 4 TB. The MB is not THAT old. And the W7 I have is x64 which I now understand that is another requirement.
Ok, let me ask this, when I get the new drive after I initialize it, can I do a regular install of W7, can I restore an existing image of my backup drives W7 over the fresh W7, will that work?
Then copy the data in the remaining two partitions in the 4TB HDD?
 

Entegy

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You will need to fresh install Windows 7 x64 under UEFI. Make sure Compatibility Support Module or CSM is turned off in your firmware settings (BIOS) and that Secure Boot is also off. If your Windows 7 installer can't boot under the above conditions, it's missing the UEFI files and you'll need to find another ISO to burn to a DVD/convert to a USB. Let Windows 7 partition the disk by hitting "next" on the disk install screen, you can carve out your own partitions in Disk Management later.

Finally, you will have to manually copy data from your images. You cannot "apply" the images, they are MBR disk type, and any attempt to restore them will overwrite GPT. I'm not sure if True Image has a data only restore feature, but you should at least be able to mount the images and copy your stuff from them.
 

Paladin

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No never do that. You'll end up with a huge mess.

There are migration tools, software that intelligently copies some user files and program settings and registry entries from an old install to a new one but I have never bothered using one.

If you have like 3 or 4 things you use most of the time (browser, and email program, maybe a media player or some games, etc.), then a manual migration is very easy as long as you have your old install available to copy files to the new one. You can have the old one export things like browser backups, saved passwords, even session data (you need a browser extension for session export). You can copy over the profile files for an email client like Thunderbird or export settings and mail from others. You can simply install games again and copy over a save file and settings config file.

If you have a LOT more applications you use regularly then it might be harder to migrate normally.
 

Lord Evermore

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Windows 7 cannot switch to UEFI booting without a reinstall, unlike Windows 10. UEFI firmware is required to boot from a disk with a GPT partition table.
I'd forgotten that it doesn't like it, but you CAN change it to work, it just takes additional steps using a bootable installer for Win8 or higher to rebuild the BCD. AOMEI may actually make the required change for you if you install it on a running MBR system, when it boots into Pre-OS mode to do the conversion. You do have to change the motherboard settings to use UEFI instead of BIOS/legacy mode. You can perform the clone and boot into Windows with MBR and use AOMEI to convert it and see if it works. If it doesn't, then you just wipe the drive and do a fresh install. (If I get bored maybe I'll make a virtual machine and test it. Edit: Ugh. Can't because the VM can't support both BIOS and UEFI so that they'd be switchable.)

If you decide to install it fresh, the Windows 7 installer likely needs to be one of the last builds in order to ensure it will install in UEFI mode (it was enabled with a KB patch). Disabling compatibility mode completely will make sure that it doesn't silently use MBR/BIOS mode. For that board, it looks like it's on the BIOS Features tab. The manual is VERY confusing in the way it's written because it refers to "UEFI BIOS" boot process which are contradictory terms. Set OS Type to Windows 8 (this is what enables Secure Boot) and CSM Support to Never. (To have Secure Boot disabled, set OS Type to Other. This changes the other options: CSM Support option disappears, and Boot Mode Selection appears which needs to be set to UEFI Only. At some point you may run into bootable utilities that don't work with Secure Boot, or you might even need to enable Legacy boot for them to run.)

Don't attempt to copy ALL of the stuff from the C drive or the other drives. If there are data files in places like Documents, Downloads, Pictures, etc., copy those, but don't copy application files. You need to manually reinstall any applications. Profiles for web browsers or mail clients can usually be copied over easily, game save files, etc, as those are "data" files and not application files. If you installed programs to the other drive letters, obviously don't copy those program files either, but otherwise you can just copy and paste everything if they're just media and documents and stuff, or backup files.
 
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videobruce

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The only non O/S related data are a few installed programs. 80+% of my programs are Portables that are stored in the 2nd SSD partition that I create shortcuts to both O/S's. Everything else data wise is not in either O/S partition purposely!!! If the O/S ever gets trashed I'm only out the O/S and a few 'installed only' programs. My e-mail (TB) and browser (FF) are in my 'E' drive accessible from either C or D partitions.

This CSM, is it in the BIOS firmware? If so, this MB doesn't have it. (see attachments, I inverted the colors easier to read & print)
 

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Lord Evermore

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FYI, I just discovered that AOMEI does not allow converting the drive with the current OS partition from MBR to GPT in the free version. (One of those things where they provide all the instructions to perform the function, but don't mention it requires paying for the product. I've used it for years on data volumes and just never needed it for the current OS.) After cloning, you could boot to the original drive with the new one connected and perform the conversion successfully, as AOMEI considers it a non-system disk at that point.

I made a Hyper-V Gen 1 BIOS-based Windows 7 VM, and using copies of the VHDX file I was able to use both AOMEI and the mbr2gpt.exe utility when booting with a Windows 10 installer to convert it to GPT, then made a Gen 2 VM using the same virtual disk. The one converted with AOMEI didn't seem to work at all, but the one done with mbr2gpt does identify Windows and shows the "Starting Windows" message, but halts after that. I think the boot configuration just needs to be rebuilt but unfortunately I won't have time to play with it more until tomorrow night.

You don't see CSM Support because your OS Type is set to Other. If you change the OS Type option to Windows 8, the CSM Support option will appear and you can set it to Never, and the other options will disappear. It's a matter of the options being different depending on whether Secure Boot is enabled (by setting OS Type to Windows 8) or not (setting it to Other). If you really don't want Secure Boot enabled for some reason, then just select UEFI Only for Boot Mode Selection and the other options will disappear because Legacy options will no longer be available.

If you really don't have very much stuff "installed" then don't even spend time trying to convert and fiddling with the BCD repair. Just install it fresh with the motherboard set to UEFI-only mode. I would do it with ONLY the new drive plugged in, just to be safe. The only downside to this is that it will start up in a seriously crippled state since whatever you use to install will be wildly out of date and missing tons of patches, and running Windows Update may or may not even function. But at least since you have viable Windows 7-compatible browsers on the E drive, you'll be able to get Windows Update fixed to where it will run. (Of course you could just download them to a USB drive or onto the D/E drives ahead of time.) You're looking at a LONG wait and lots of rebooting to get it all patched, of course.


View: https://new.reddit.com/r/windows7/comments/18uh2ju/using_windows_7_in_2024/
 

videobruce

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I can't set it to UEFI Only since my main drive is on a MBR drive. What's wrong with Always??

There is another point I didn't get into. My working version of W7 Pro is a RT7 Lite modified version with the typical bloat removed not related to booting or any 'basic' functions. I checked I do have original iso's tucked away, but I don't want to use those. I spent many hours getting W7 unbloated and still working with most of the updates integrated, this was around 6-8 years ago when I switched to W7 (best that I recollect).
 
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Entegy

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Oh boy. "Modded" Windows. 🙄

Your best bet is making this 4TB disk a data drive. You have complicated yourself into a corner that will waste many hours of your life to solve. I also do not believe Lord Evermore's suggestion of "fiddling with BCD repair" will work, your modded Windows may have accidentally removed the files required to support UEFI at all because for some reason it's so damn easy to break Windows 7's UEFI support. Thankfully this stuff works way better in Windows 8 and up.
 

Lord Evermore

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I can't set it to UEFI Only since my main drive is on a MBR drive. What's wrong with Always??
Set it to UEFI Only if you are going to install Windows fresh, to be certain that the USB installer boots into UEFI mode and installs Windows with GPT. Since the Windows 7 installer is able to boot in BIOS mode, if you leave Legacy/CSM mode enabled, there's a chance that the USB stick you made could boot to BIOS mode instead. You can change it back to Always later, once you are sure Windows has installed with UEFI/GPT. Having it disabled also ensures you are booting to the new drive, if you have both of them plugged in, since the old one won't be able to boot.

If you are cloning, leave it on MBR until the clone is complete, then boot to the new drive and convert it to GPT, then change it to UEFI Only mode to make sure that the GPT conversion worked and made a bootable drive in UEFI mode. Then you can change it back to Always if you want. There's no actual reason to have Legacy/CSM enabled once you've got Windows booting with UEFI/GPT though, unless you needed to boot with some older tool on a USB stick, and having it disabled just eliminates the chances of getting anything confused. The old drive will still be readable when you've booted the new one with UEFI/GPT. The mode only is an issue for the BOOT partition/drive.

@Entegy 's suggestion of just using the 4TB as a data drive is valid, unless you have a reason to not keep both drives connected to the system. If the new one is significantly faster, then it might be worth swapping. Or if it would be plugged into a much slower slot if you kept both. Or you need to re-use the old drive for something else. It's not a tremendously difficult thing to fix the boot files or BCD, just time-consuming sometimes because for some reason running the same commands never works in the same order twice, in my experience. (I've had to repair drives after cloning or restoring a backup many times, even without doing any conversion. Even Win8 and Win10 are flaky with GPT.) I have no way of knowing what the odds are that the modified version you are using has completely broken the UEFI boot function, but I would expect it's low. And if you spend a little time trying to do it and it doesn't work, you can decide it's not worth it and just wipe the new drive and plug the old one back in, because nothing will have broken the old one if all you did was clone it and didn't try to convert it to GPT directly.
 

Lord Evermore

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I've been fiddling some more with VMs. Might be easier with a different hypervisor that I could switch from BIOS to UEFI and back with, if one exists, instead of needing to create whole separate VMs with different drive types. Anyway, with Gen 2 and UEFI, a Windows 7 ISO that was supposedly pretty nearly complete with patches won't boot to the installer with UEFI. It hangs at Starting Windows. (And a note, I had to disable Secure Boot to even get it to attempt to start.) There's a good chance that you won't have an installer image to create the USB still that has EVERY LAST PATCH slipstreamed in and modified to allow it to actually do a fresh install in UEFI, as there were never any official installers ISOs released by Microsoft that I know of. I found various sources but I have no way to be totally certain they're safe to use.

But, at least one person reported that when they installed with the Legacy Option ROMs enabled, Windows 7 did set up using a GPT disk, so it might actually do what you want as long as you have a later version of the ISO. It really can't hurt to try it if you want to avoid work converting, but you are strongly against even doing a fresh install.

Ugh, I think I just won't be able to make Windows 7 bootable with Hyper-V Gen 2, period, no matter what I do with the disk type and and boot files. Gen 2 doesn't support the "IDE" drive type and Win7 won't work with the "SCSI" type even in Gen 1, even if I install the guest driver file package from the last version of Hyper-V that officially supported 7/2008R2.
 
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Entegy

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Ugh, I think I just won't be able to make Windows 7 bootable with Hyper-V Gen 2, period, no matter what I do with the disk type and and boot files. Gen 2 doesn't support the "IDE" drive type and Win7 won't work with the "SCSI" type even in Gen 1, even if I install the guest driver file package from the last version of Hyper-V that officially supported 7/2008R2.
Hyper-V Gen 2 does not support Windows 7 as a guest. This would make it difficult for any of your tests to translate well to the real world. Perhaps VMware Workstation would be a better option since you could turn UEFI on and off by editing the VMX file. And Workstation is now free for personal use.

(I've had to repair drives after cloning or restoring a backup many times, even without doing any conversion. Even Win8 and Win10 are flaky with GPT.)
I'm sorry, but not they are not. I spent a good chunk of my working life of the mid-to-late 2010s doing hundreds of Win7-Win10 upgrades, then using Microsoft's mbr2gpt tool to convert the disk so we could switch to UEFI and Secure Boot. Boot disk using a GPT partition table has been the Windows default since 2012 on OEM machines. Disks under UEFI and GPT are easier to boot than MBR disks since disks under UEFI don't have to care about partition order. You can do a lot to Windows under UEFI without having to repair the boot manager. Stuff like this just ended up being

But of course, all this started under Windows 8. Windows 7 is just from a different era of computing. It's so old it doesn't even have native USB 3.0 support and that's been around for a decade and a half.

Maybe I am being pessimistic, but I still believe that a modded version of Windows 7 will not survive this kind of conversion. Mods like this tend to break things at this level, especially, since like I said, Windows 7's UEFI support was so easy to break. I too spent a lot of time trying to get Windows 7 running under UEFI and I just never got it right. UEFI has technically been supported since Vista SP1, but things only got easy at Windows 8.
 

videobruce

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It's just it's such a HUGE hassle to 'fix' their deformed O/S w/ all the quirks into something I'm comfortable with. There must be 100 'mods' that have to be done that I can't even begin to remember what they are until I have to preform a operation and can't find where it is with their screwy setup with the Start Menu (for starters). Even something as simple as Device Manager where there is a hack to place a shortcut in the context menu of 'My Computer'. which I use often. I could write a book on it.
All one has to do is look at all of the 'mod' programs available on the subject and the fact there are many others like myself that stick with W7.
AFA the supposed 'security' issues, I don't leave the Tower on 24/7 like others I know. When it's on 90% of the time I'm in front of it. The only exception is when I'm defragging these media drives. :(

Frankly, I wish Win 2000 was a viable option. And yes, hardware issues can be a problem, if they would just 'fix' that w/o changing the GUI of the O/S they would be better off. I guess, if it ain't broke we will 'fix' it anyway. Job security is our 'job 1', besides, 'modern' is always better. :rollpoop:
 
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Entegy

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Opening the start menu and typing "dev" wasn't easy enough? Although I wouldn't be surprised if one of the mods removes Windows Indexing meaning Start menu search is broken. At least Windows 8 and up put Device, Disk, and overall Computer Management one right-click of the Start button away. Also, what the heck are you doing that you need to go into Device Manager that often? And manually defragging drives? Why not just let the system handle its own defragging schedule, or was that only added properly in 8 or 10, I can't remember now.

Like XP, Windows 7 will eventually not be able to connect to things due to unsupported security protocols. You don't need to leave it on 24/7 to be attacked. Honestly, I would use this 4TB disk situation to move to modern Windows.
 

Lord Evermore

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I'm sorry, but not they are not.
I'm sorry but they are, just not necessarily in the way you think I meant. I've cloned plenty of UEFI/GPT drives and then had to spend time repairing the boot files and BCD. UEFI is great and all, but it's a lot more complicated than the old way of just having some boot files on the OS partition.

It's just it's such a HUGE hassle to 'fix' their deformed O/S w/ all the quirks into something I'm comfortable with.
This can be said about every OS, depending on the person. I felt that way about XP, then about 7 (I just skipped Vista, like most people who had to try it at some point), and used the built-in features to make them more like Windows 2000 and Windows 98, plus used tweaking tools. I've tweaked Windows 10 as well but needed to do less to make it usable. You are on the extreme end of wanting to modify every last bit of the OS. You should try switching to Linux which is designed specifically to let you do all that without breaking the OS. (I'm not a Linux evangelist. I don't use it myself, but I know when it can be useful.)

Complaining that Windows 7 doesn't have a feature that was introduced in later versions (like the context menu items for the Start button) isn't really a valid complaint. Every version introduces new features. You're complaining that they didn't predict every possible feature that one day could be added and then include it in 7. Or complaining that it doesn't fit YOUR use case 100% when it does fit the use case of 90% of people. I LIKE being able to leave my PC on 24/7 and not have to wait for bootup, and to allow it to perform tasks in the background or when I'm not using it rather than taking up my time when I'm trying to use it.

And yes, it would be nice for some of us if there was a fixed GUI that just never changed unless specifically needed, but that's not how design and marketing work, and most people like to change things up a bit over time. New paint, new artwork, new furniture.

Also, regardless of how secure you think it is to only have it on when you're actively in front of it, you ARE part of the security problem by continuing to use an OS that hasn't had a security patch in half a decade, and which most applications and security software don't support anymore so THEY aren't getting security updates, either. There are plenty of security flaws found that can't be blocked simply because you're in front of the machine because they don't require any user interaction, and more found every day.
 
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Lord Evermore

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Also, as far as "memory recall", your muscles and brain can be retrained, even if you're old. I stayed on XP until a few years after 7 came out because I didn't like the new look and the new Start menu and had the bad taste of Vista still. When I finally switched, it took a little while but I got used to it, and after some time became nearly crippled when I had to touch a computer that didn't allow me to just hit the Windows button on the keyboard and start typing to find the program or tool I wanted to use (like if indexing wasn't working). I still use the menu for the stuff when my hand is already on the mouse or will be immediately when the program opens, so I'm just using the best of whichever is available, rather than a dogged insistence on continuing to use one single input and control method and refusing to add a new one to my capabilities for no real reason. Your attitude is like being upset about new-fangled computer mice with TWO buttons, and buying up a bunch of stock of single-button models, or removing the second button cover and removing the switch under it.
 

Paladin

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Yeah, every new release of Windows has changes to interface, menus, settings locations and names for things. It takes about a week for me to really adjust completely, maybe a bit more for a few rarely used things. I've been using Windows for near 30 years now... crap... that's a long time, and I definitely have some muscle memory flailing from one version to another. But it's fine. I have Windows 11 at home and at work, I also use a variety of Windows Server releases at work (a couple of ancient 2012 R2 installs, 2016, and mostly 2019 with a very few 2022 installs). Each is very different in some ways but for the most part, they're not that different.

As for Windows customization, I gave that up 10+ years ago after realizing I was just hurting myself with spending hours on fiddling instead of actually doing the things I wanted to do (gaming or work, etc.) at the same time as making the computer less and less reliable and easy to use. Now my customizations are limited to using WinStep Nexus dock for launching my most frequently used applications and 'My Computer' and frequent folders/drives. The rest I need I can launch from the start menu with a couple of keystrokes which is faster and more easy than the way I did it back in the day (meticulously curated start menu nested folders and shortcuts).

There are plenty of applications that provide useful features as well (various launchers, widgets, etc.).

Ultimately, the cost of time and effort spent on adapting to the changes in each release is minimal compared to the time spent dealing with custom windows install, customizing settings and menus, installing further customization tools, special applications for more features and customization, redirecting folders and moving around files and stuff.

It's up to everyone what works best for them, but I certainly would not go back.
 

LordDaMan

Ars Legatus Legionis
10,090
Most of the changes to windows is pretty minor stuff. The strat menu is laid out slighly differntly. Explorer chnaged a few glpyhs. Settings did change, but it's been going a certain way since windows xp.

The only major changes was windows 95 and windows 8. One we still use a variant of today, the other died off into obscurity since no one cared for it.


That being said, the center aligned taskbar can rot in hell. A very important part of the UI like the start menu should always be in the same place and not moved because you opened a program that's not pinned
 
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Paladin

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Yeah, I can see why they would do that center aligned thing on the super wide screens now. They should just make it automatically place the Windows icon in the middle with some obvious logic for the rest of the stuff on the taskbar to either side or just always have the windows icon in the middle and move the rest always out to the right or left as desired. For displays with normal 16:10 or 3:4 or 16:9 layouts, it should keep the default to the windows icon at the left side bottom corner.

And they really should have put in an option for additional display taskbars to move their icons/windows icon to a customizable location and orientation as well. It makes a big difference to usability.
 

Lord Evermore

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a couple of ancient 2012 R2 installs
Ancient? I still hurt from when I had to work on a Server 2000 system around 2014/2015. That was when I learned Gateway 2000 built servers at one point. It used USB 1.1 for backups (which was fine since it was like 100MB of actual data and wasn't doing full backups.) Yes, the SCSI RAID5 array died while I was trying to replace a drive and another one failed. The sole function of that machine which probably pulled 200W of power at all times was to host a single Quickbooks file and a few other documents.

The centre aligned taskbar is for the giant 27"+ screens where the Start button is now extremely for away from primary content. Besides, a centre-aligned dock has not impeded macOS in any way.
Mac OS doesn't have a "start menu" design, so it doesn't matter as much, but having your icons moving around depending on what's open is annoying no matter what and makes it hard to find what you're looking for, on any OS. I can't stand pinned apps anyway, and grouping icons is just the worst. At least the actual Start menu stays in one place no matter how where the button ends up, rather than shifting further left. The number of people with screens over 27 inches isn't really that large, and 27 inches isn't so big. (Or at least it wouldn't seem to be, if Windows didn't default to such a godawful slow mouse cursor speed.) Only ultrawide screens would really be an issue and that's an extremely small number of users, and it doesn't make sense to design with them as the target audience when it makes things worse for the rest. Microsoft clearly just wanted to make a "dock" appearance like Mac but couldn't completely eliminate the Start menu, so they just pushed the older parts like the full list into a sub-menu to encourage use of pinning and their "recommendations" and using search to find your own files so that Bing would automatically get some additional usage. But just typing the program name is usually the easiest way still to open something.
 
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LordDaMan

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10,090
The centre aligned taskbar is for the giant 27"+ screens where the Start button is now extremely for away from primary content. Besides, a centre-aligned dock has not impeded macOS in any way.

It sucks on MacOS also. There's talk about muscle memory which is something that never happens on a dock because things are always moving. This evenm worse if you turn on labels and then you get things moved around by uneven amounts depending on the title length of the button.

At least the taskbar can be left-aligned again with a few clicks.
I just really hope that stays and win 12 doesn't roll around and that's gone
 
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Asral

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1,143
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Yeah, I can see why they would do that center aligned thing on the super wide screens now.
I have a 34-inch 21:9 screen, and having a left aligned taskbar (still on WIn 10) doesn't bother me at all. Center aligned just doesn't feel necessary at all, unless maybe you get one of those crazy wide 32:9 screens. Designing for that by default seems really weird since the vast majority are on 16:9.

I can't stand pinned apps anyway, and grouping icons is just the worst.
To each their own, but the taskbar redesign in Windows 7 is one of the best UI changes MS ever did IMO and being able to pin programs on the taskbar is a large part of that. I just pin everything that is somewhat commonly used on the taskbar, and some seldomly used programs get pinned on the start menu instead.
 

Paladin

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Subscriptor
It really should be as simple as 'let me click the start button, drag it where I want it (position on the task bar, as well as dragging the task bar to any side of the display) and it stays exactly where I put it and make an option to grow the icons of active windows/apps to either side the user prefers'. The only time it should budge from where I put it is if the resolution changes such that the indicated position is no longer possible. If it is just close because the display resolution shrinks, then have the apps/folders collapse/stack. That's it really.
 

Lord Evermore

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To each their own, but the taskbar redesign in Windows 7 is one of the best UI changes MS ever did IMO and being able to pin programs on the taskbar is a large part of that. I just pin everything that is somewhat commonly used on the taskbar, and some seldomly used programs get pinned on the start menu instead.
Quick Launch toolbar worked perfectly fine for putting common programs there and being able to start an instance with a single click and NOT using up a large chunk of space when not running (I still enable it in Windows 10 and will probably do it on my new Win11 laptop if I start using it a lot), and piling up all the taskbar items just means more clicking and searching trying to find the window you want. I avoid tabs most of the time in apps, because I already had the same functionality, in items shown on the taskbar, with titles and everything, until MS decided to start hiding all of it by default. This was when they began their path of adding an additional click to every process and waiting for another menu or something to display in order to access something that used to be easily accessible, with something else requiring an extra click every time a major release happens, which progressed to Windows 11 having common commands on the context menus hidden behind a "more options" entry.
Grouping is horrible. And you can't disable that in 11. Terrible.
Well Windows 7/8 didn't actually allow you to disable it, either. (Grouping as in all icons of one program stayed together, even if they weren't combined.) But you can install Windhawk which allows a lot of mods, and there is one simple one called "Disable grouping on the taskbar" which lets you rearrange them as you like, whether Windows itself is set to combine or not, and even create customized groupings. My gripe with taskbar grouping is that I want my taskbar items to be in the same order all the time, not having them injected in whatever location the previous items existed in, because I know what order they're in that way, and I want to be able to move things around to be in a particular position even if I opened that window later than something else. 7+ Taskbar Tweaker works great for Win10 and below and is super lightweight but since MS completely rewrote the taskbar code, including releasing it in a less-functional form than the existing taskbar that is the way all programs are made these days, Tweaker can no longer be made to work with Win11's taskbar.
 

videobruce

Ars Scholae Palatinae
656
Update;
Long story short, with the help of a tech friend he finally got the drive switched over to GPT with a added, hidden partition and boot as a UEFI drive ok.
BUT,
Only by itself, when I connect the MBR SSD drive and try to boot from the GPT drive it errors our with a supposed hardware like error. That is selecting the UEFI drive as the boot drive in the BIOS boot menu. The MBR SSD 'Main system drive still boots fine. The MB is a Gigabyte GA-970A-D3P v2.

Any ideas?
 

Lord Evermore

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1,490
Subscriptor++
Update;
Long story short, with the help of a tech friend he finally got the drive switched over to GPT with a added, hidden partition and boot as a UEFI drive ok.
BUT,
Only by itself, when I connect the MBR SSD drive and try to boot from the GPT drive it errors our with a supposed hardware like error. That is selecting the UEFI drive as the boot drive in the BIOS boot menu. The MBR SSD 'Main system drive still boots fine. The MB is a Gigabyte GA-970A-D3P v2.

Any ideas?
What is the error? This sounds like it's not really booting to the right drive when you have both connected, and you have the CSM/Legacy settings mismatched. Windows error codes and stop codes are NOT clear at all usually so it could sound like "hardware" when the hardware isn't really faulty. You say "only by itself" but I'm not sure what that means. Are both drives installed on the board at the same time? What is the BIOS/UEFI configuration set to in terms of CSM/Legacy stuff? Are you hitting the keyboard button when it starts up to bring up the boot selection screen, or are you just setting the boot order in the UEFI configuration?

It sounds to me like you have CSM/Legacy disabled, and it's trying to boot to the MBR drive, so whatever selection process you're using is not actually selecting the GPT drive. The easiest way to make sure it works is to ensure the GPT drive is on the primary M.2 slot, and the MBR drive is on the secondary slot. But if one is M.2 and one is SATA then SATA may always be considered the "first" drive. (Makes no sense to me since the primary M.2 is directly connected to the CPU and is PCIe and ought to be enumerated first, before chipset drives of any type, but that's how drives get listed on my system.)
 

videobruce

Ars Scholae Palatinae
656
Yes, MS's error codes are almost useless.

1. I have UEFI and Legacy enabled.
2. The UEFI drive is the only bootable HDD listed in the BIOS Features page.
3. The MBR drive (the main drive) is listed last in the Boot Menu which I have to choose so it will boot. I can't change the order even thou the Boot Menu says you can by using the arrow keys.
4. If I disconnect the UEFI drive, the MBR drive boots by itself, same in reverse, if I remove that MBR drive the UEFI boots by itself.
5. The MBR drive is not listed on the BIOS Features page at all as a choice to boot from. Just my optical drive and the UEFI HDD.
 

Lord Evermore

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1,490
Subscriptor++
It sounds like maybe you have one of the options in the configuration not quite right. Take a screenshot of those two sections again. It's odd though for them both to work independently. And what exactly is the error message/code? Photo of it if necessary.

I suppose it's possible that the board will only "activate" one or the other boot type if it detects both types of drives installed, but I've never seen that before, although I've never done it with two types of internal drives connected. But I've had GPT SSDs installed and inserted legacy/BIOS type flash drives, and they all showed up in the boot options.

What kind of drives are you using?
 
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videobruce

Ars Scholae Palatinae
656
The error I get when I try to boot the Samsung MBR SSD drive with the WD 4TB HDD attached is from Windows Boot Manager 0cx0000225 unexpected error. When I hit Escape (Exit) the boot continues w/o issue to the SSD. Again that is only w/ the 4TD 2nd O/S attached.
Here are some screen shots of the BIOS (inverted colors). (The Multi-Reader' entries are empty memory card slots and the 'Store n Go' is a USB drive to use for screen shots of the BIOS.)

Note the fact the SSD is not shown under BIOS Features, but shows under System Info and in the Boot menu. :unsure:
 

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