cloudy skies: Intel's future in the datacenter

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Most of what we talk about here is the PC business, or what Intel calls "client". Their other highly profitable segment is the datacenter, where AMD has been gaining share rapidly. There's limits to how fast AMD can ramp up though, since they have to compete for capacity on leading edge nodes with the extremely lucrative mobile SoC market. On the other hand, once performance and efficiency are competitive there's no obvious ceiling to the share they can grab. My contention is that likely even before they can grab a majority of share from Intel, they will divert enough of the growth from the sector to make Intel's financials look bad, and that this will hurt what has been a consistent growth segment for Intel all through the years of PC stagnation.

There's other even larger threats though, from ARM and possibly RISC-V. ARM designs are recently drawing close to Intel on a per-thread basis and typically offer significantly better efficiency.

RISC-V is a long way behind but making surprising gains. I didn't understand what the appeal was until I saw a talk on YouTube, where a major chip vendor remarked that they have various IP cores in a product representing 15 different ISA's in one of their products, all with their own toolchains and licensing/royalties to worry about. Consolidating that down with a common architecture makes sense, potentially even if your main business is selling a CPU with a proprietary ISA like x86 or ARM. So far RISC-V implementations have been limited to the low end but I think there's the potential for growth if big companies that add value at other parts of the stack decide to invest, such as cloud providers, especially those with a desire to limit their exposure to foreign dependencies such as Tencent and Alibaba.

Too, cloud providers are putting more and more value in the "serverless" part of their products, where there's no customer controlled instance to worry about hence no compatibility concerns.

All of this to me suggests a long term decline in the reliance on Intel as the monolithic performance engine behind the datacenter. And worse, I think this would have been true even if Intel hadn't suffered their process setbacks, that just accelerated the trend. Which means it's not necessarily a fix to move their chips to external fabs or catch up with their own process.
 

redleader

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There's limits to how fast AMD can ramp up though, since they have to compete for capacity on leading edge nodes with the extremely lucrative mobile SoC market.

Mostly disagree there. IIRC the entire x86 datacenter market is something like ten million parts per year. Most are bigger than mobile SOCs, so call it 20 million parts.

TSMC passed 1 billion working (so excluding parts that were ditched for defects) dies made on 7nm this summer:

https://www.tsmc.com/english/newsEvents ... 200801.htm

So AMD literally putting Intel out of the server business would take maybe a couple percent of TSMC's (still expanding) 7nm capacity, and that is never going to happen. I don't think AMD has a problem getting enough made given the small volume, that they launch only after the node is relatively mature, and the extremely high selling price. I think Intel is just really well entrenched and willing to discount enough to keep most of their market share, which they can still keep up a while longer. We'll see with Icelake-SP. Last year they said it would already be shipping by now. Now it seems to be slipping into next year. And we have a new 14nm CPU launching this winter, which is not a great sign for Intel.
 

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There's limits to how fast AMD can ramp up though, since they have to compete for capacity on leading edge nodes with the extremely lucrative mobile SoC market.

Mostly disagree there. IIRC the entire x86 datacenter market is something like ten million parts per year. Most are bigger than mobile SOCs, so call it 20 million parts.

TSMC passed 1 billion working (so excluding parts that were ditched for defects) dies made on 7nm this summer:

https://www.tsmc.com/english/newsEvents ... 200801.htm

So AMD literally putting Intel out of the server business would take maybe a couple percent of TSMC's (still expanding) 7nm capacity
It's not quite that simple. link

I think it's more a question of not wanting to get too far out ahead of the demand forecasts. TSMC has a lot of capacity but also as you mention a lot of customers, so booking capacity entails commitments that would be expensive to renege.

I don't think AMD has a problem getting enough made given the small volume
Define "problem". If demand is stronger than forecasted there's tons of ways to tweak demand, like raising prices. It's not a "problem" if your margins are increased, and that can even help ramp supplies since the money can be rolled back into booking more capacity. My understanding though is that those commitments are quite long term and have a nontrivial lead time so there's limits to how fast a company can ramp, unless they're Apple and they have infinite money and practically no risk.

I think Intel is just really well entrenched and willing to discount enough to keep most of their market share, which they can still keep up a while longer.
No question Intel is entrenched, but at 5nm vs 14nm I think the Intel part might not be worth it even if they gave it away for free.
 

wrylachlan

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And there may be some larger trends in servers in general that are not so favorable to Intel:
According to the International Data Corporation (IDC) Worldwide Quarterly Server Tracker, vendor revenue in the worldwide server market declined 6.0% year over year to $18.6 billion during the first quarter of 2020 (1Q20). Worldwide server shipments declined 0.2% year over year to just under 2.6 million units in 1Q20.

In terms of server class, volume server revenue was down 2.1% to $15.1 billion, while midrange server revenue declined 23.0% to just under $2.6 billion, and high-end systems declined by 9.1% to just under $1.0 billion.
https://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS46534520

Undoubtedly coronavirus has some impact here, but I wonder if we’re also seeing a natural plateau in the “make everything a cloud” trend. As the mobile revolution is in its second decade much of what could be cloudified has been cloudified. It’s hard to see another source of similarly explosive server demand would come from.

Slowing sector growth plus more dangerous competitors is not a good time for Intel.

And one last point - ARM on the server isn’t at critical mass yet, but it’s getting there. And when it does there will be positive network effects. So the curve of ARM adoption in the server room will likely be slow, slow, slow, FAST. That’s what I would worry about if I were Intel.
 

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Undoubtedly coronavirus has some impact here, but I wonder if we’re also seeing a natural plateau in the “make everything a cloud” trend.
I think that's a bit of a stretch. I think more likely the growth in terms of services is still there but a market that spent a long time stuck on Intel 14nm is now starting to get increased core counts again, which undermines the unit numbers. Also it's no surprise that renewed competition undermines revenue since Intel will be forced to give discounts.

There's other trends that tend to increase efficiency like cloud providers offering more and more serverless options. These are much more efficient and are easier to cram more customers on the same hardware.

In other words there's no demand problem, but improvements are coming from a lot of directions right now.
 

wrylachlan

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Undoubtedly coronavirus has some impact here, but I wonder if we’re also seeing a natural plateau in the “make everything a cloud” trend.
I think that's a bit of a stretch. I think more likely the growth in terms of services is still there but a market that spent a long time stuck on Intel 14nm is now starting to get increased core counts again, which undermines the unit numbers. Also it's no surprise that renewed competition undermines revenue since Intel will be forced to give discounts.

There's other trends that tend to increase efficiency like cloud providers offering more and more serverless options. These are much more efficient and are easier to cram more customers on the same hardware.

In other words there's no demand problem, but improvements are coming from a lot of directions right now.
I’m not thinking so much shrinking demand as decelerating demand. I mean maybe cloud services can continue their last decade’s rate of growth indefinitely... but I’m skeptical. What major service categories that haven’t largely moved to the cloud are left to go? Or put another way, if there are services that will eventually move to the cloud, why aren’t they there now? What are they waiting for?

I think some measure of deceleration is inevitable.
 

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I’m not thinking so much shrinking demand as decelerating demand. I mean maybe cloud services can continue their last decade’s rate of growth indefinitely... but I’m skeptical. What major service categories that haven’t largely moved to the cloud are left to go? Or put another way, if there are services that will eventually move to the cloud, why aren’t they there now? What are they waiting for?
I'm not suggesting the growth will always be smooth but there's whole new categories of compute task that will soak up as much compute resources as we can give them. Just as an example it's possible to train machine vision with computer generated images. The advantage of this compared to real world images is that it's practical to label a large number of images at a pixel level from the scene description, which is extremely expensive when you have to pay humans to do it for real photos. But the compute required for rendering dwarfs anything Pixar ever did. There's entire new categories of compute task just waiting for the economics to work.
 

cogwheel

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There's limits to how fast AMD can ramp up though, since they have to compete for capacity on leading edge nodes with the extremely lucrative mobile SoC market.
I'm not sure that mobile is lucrative enough to prevent AMD from buying more capacity. The Snapdragon 865+ is about 84mm² on TSMC 7nm and apparently runs about $80 to handset manufacturers (just the SoC, not including the separate 5G modem chip). On AMD's side, a EPYC 7252 contains one ~80mm² TSMC 7nm CPU chiplet and one ~450mm² GloFo 14nm I/O chiplet, and retails for $475, and an EPYC 7452 contains four CPU chiplets and one I/O chiplet for $2025 retail. Even assuming that actual prices to system manufacturers for the EPYCs are half of retail, even for the worst case (7252, single CPU chiplet), as long as AMD's cost for the I/O chiplet and the more expensive MCM packaging plus their profit margin is less than $160, they can outbid Qualcomm for capacity.

Desktop-side, the Ryzens use a much smaller, ~125mm² GloFo 12nm I/O chiplet and a smaller MCM, so the non-CPU chiplet costs should be significantly lower as well.
 

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There's limits to how fast AMD can ramp up though, since they have to compete for capacity on leading edge nodes with the extremely lucrative mobile SoC market.
I'm not sure that mobile is lucrative enough to prevent AMD from buying more capacity. The Snapdragon 865+ is about 84mm² on TSMC 7nm and apparently runs about $80 to handset manufacturers (just the SoC, not including the separate 5G modem chip). On AMD's side, a EPYC 7252 contains one ~80mm² TSMC 7nm CPU chiplet and one ~450mm² GloFo 14nm I/O chiplet, and retails for $475, and an EPYC 7452 contains four CPU chiplets and one I/O chiplet for $2025 retail. Even assuming that actual prices to system manufacturers for the EPYCs are half of retail, even for the worst case (7252, single CPU chiplet), as long as AMD's cost for the I/O chiplet and the more expensive MCM packaging plus their profit margin is less than $160, they can outbid Qualcomm for capacity.
Right but that's not quite what I'm getting at. For them to outbid they must have the decision to outbid, which relies on demand forecasts etc. I think this is a case where overestimating demand would be more damaging to the company than underestimating to a similar degree, which limits the speed they can ramp up. On the other hand as you and others have pointed out since TSMC's capacity is huge compared to the x86 market they can ramp substantially faster than if they were building their own fabs. I believe Apple's present migration to 5nm is expected to free up a lot of 7nm capacity of which AMD plans to grab a good chunk. Intel's delays in 10nm and now 7nm just give AMD even more breathing room to continue on 7nm rather than try to grab 5nm so early.
 

cogwheel

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I think this is a case where overestimating demand would be more damaging to the company than underestimating to a similar degree, which limits the speed they can ramp up.
This is a very good point. AMD has been burned by this before, with overproduction of GPUs back in 2014 spurred by a cryptomining craze.
 

redleader

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There's limits to how fast AMD can ramp up though, since they have to compete for capacity on leading edge nodes with the extremely lucrative mobile SoC market.

Mostly disagree there. IIRC the entire x86 datacenter market is something like ten million parts per year. Most are bigger than mobile SOCs, so call it 20 million parts.

TSMC passed 1 billion working (so excluding parts that were ditched for defects) dies made on 7nm this summer:

https://www.tsmc.com/english/newsEvents ... 200801.htm

So AMD literally putting Intel out of the server business would take maybe a couple percent of TSMC's (still expanding) 7nm capacity
It's not quite that simple. link

Turn around time for a CPU is about 4-5 months plus whatever time tsmc wants, so the supply AMD has is what they projected last February or March, i.e. before covid. Supply is tight due to the huge demand shock and the long lead time on processors.

I don't think this has long term implications. Covid was an exceptional event. Shocks like that are not the norm.

I don't think AMD has a problem getting enough made given the small volume
Define "problem". If demand is stronger than forecasted there's tons of ways to tweak demand, like raising prices. It's not a "problem" if your margins are increased, and that can even help ramp supplies since the money can be rolled back into booking more capacity. My understanding though is that those commitments are quite long term and have a nontrivial lead time so there's limits to how fast a company can ramp, unless they're Apple and they have infinite money and practically no risk.

This is true of everyone. Chip fab is a highly parallel process with a very long per unit lead time. Nothing specific to AMD here, Intel, apple etc all have the same problems. Arguably it's easier for AMD though, since your exposure is proportional to units ordered, while your upside is proportional to your selling price. A data center product that sells for 1000 dollars has a lot more upside then an equally expensive to order couple of $20 Qualcomm SOCs.

I think Intel is just really well entrenched and willing to discount enough to keep most of their market share, which they can still keep up a while longer.
No question Intel is entrenched, but at 5nm vs 14nm I think the Intel part might not be worth it even if they gave it away for free.

That's why I think icelake-sp is critical. If they can get a 10nm part out in volume, they can maintain their position. If not, they're going to fall too far behind to throw money at the problem.
 

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That's why I think icelake-sp is critical. If they can get a 10nm part out in volume, they can maintain their position. If not, they're going to fall too far behind to throw money at the problem.
It'll be interesting to watch their margins for the datacenter unit as I doubt they have as much room to cut deals on 10nm as they have on 14nm. I think if Intel is either capacity constrained on 10nm or unable to give large discounts AMD will be able to command more of a premium. This would also increase the impetus for ARM. We'll be revisiting this situation again with 5nm/7nm since I think TSMC will be widely available well before Intel 7nm makes it to Xeons.
 
One thing to also consider is that it's not just traditional DC and cloud DC but now local compute supporting massive IoT networks. That might mean a single Pizza box in an MDF driving one site of many. That market is nacent and less profitable but is growing significantly. Granted at this exact moment with many offices closed it's a bit stalled, but in the general sense and for enterprises that aren't office worker driven that's becoming a new normal. The compute that local IoT sends data to to be crunched before sent to the cloud.

I'm not sure who benefits from that market. Could in theory be ARM, but if it's a common windows box that maybe also runs local DHCP and other 365 services or even a local Linux distro, it may remain an x86-64 box.
 

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That's why I think icelake-sp is critical. If they can get a 10nm part out in volume, they can maintain their position. If not, they're going to fall too far behind to throw money at the problem.

IceLake-SP is delayed again, seems to be receding into the future in real time. Officially it is now launching in Q1 of next year, but a leaked roadmap is showing availability in Q2. I think there is a pretty good chance it never ships in volume.
 

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That's why I think icelake-sp is critical. If they can get a 10nm part out in volume, they can maintain their position. If not, they're going to fall too far behind to throw money at the problem.

IceLake-SP is delayed again, seems to be receding into the future in real time. Officially it is now launching in Q1 of next year, but a leaked roadmap is showing availability in Q2. I think there is a pretty good chance it never ships in volume.
Is this what you're referring to? https://videocardz.com/newz/intel-xeon- ... dmap-leaks

What is your reasoning for suggesting it never ships in volume?
 

redleader

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That's why I think icelake-sp is critical. If they can get a 10nm part out in volume, they can maintain their position. If not, they're going to fall too far behind to throw money at the problem.

IceLake-SP is delayed again, seems to be receding into the future in real time. Officially it is now launching in Q1 of next year, but a leaked roadmap is showing availability in Q2. I think there is a pretty good chance it never ships in volume.
Is this what you're referring to? https://videocardz.com/newz/intel-xeon- ... dmap-leaks

What is your reasoning for suggesting it never ships in volume?

It is already running into the release window for Sapphire Rapids, which is to built on the more manufacturable 'superfin' version of 10nm. They've already given up on 10nm+ for consumer devices. If it really isn't working now, I doubt it ever will.
 

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It is already running into the release window for Sapphire Rapids, which is to built on the more manufacturable 'superfin' version of 10nm. They've already given up on 10nm+ for consumer devices. If it really isn't working now, I doubt it ever will.
Ok, and they're maintaining the pretense because someone gets a bonus and/or it avoids a bad news day for the stock?
 

redleader

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It is already running into the release window for Sapphire Rapids, which is to built on the more manufacturable 'superfin' version of 10nm. They've already given up on 10nm+ for consumer devices. If it really isn't working now, I doubt it ever will.
Ok, and they're maintaining the pretense because someone gets a bonus and/or it avoids a bad news day for the stock?

Even if they never planned on shipping Ice Lake, I doubt they'd say so at this point when the Sapphire Rapids is still a year away. That would just be telling people to go out and buy AMD this generation. Maintaining uncertainty means that there is still a chance people will be waiting whenever Sapphire Rapids ships.
 

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Looks like no near term improvement for Intel

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Tough-tim ... 532.0.html

-10nm yields only recently cracked 50% with 10nm+
-7nm delayed more than the 6-12 months previously reported
-Ice Lake SP delayed to Q2-Q3 2021
-Sapphire Rapids delayed to Q2 2022
-Granite Rapids delayed to late 2023
-No realistic path to being competitive with AMD before 2024-25
 

wrylachlan

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Looks like no near term improvement for Intel

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Tough-tim ... 532.0.html

-10nm yields only recently cracked 50% with 10nm+
-7nm delayed more than the 6-12 months previously reported
-Ice Lake SP delayed to Q2-Q3 2021
-Sapphire Rapids delayed to Q2 2022
-Granite Rapids delayed to late 2023
-No realistic path to being competitive with AMD before 2024-25
It’s like the train wreck that doesn’t stop wrecking... This is a wide open door for AMD to eat then for breakfast. And if anything I think your last bullet is underselling how dire the situation is with regards to AMD. The linked article says that they won’t catch up to AMD until 2024-25 if both execute perfectly. I’d say that the probability of AMD out-executing Intel is pretty damn high. Hell 2025 is starting to get into the timeframe where Qualcomm is a realistic threat in the PC market and ARM server chips are a threat in the cloud.

I feel like a rubber necker on the highway driving past a crash - you know you should look away but you just can’t.
 

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It’s like the train wreck that doesn’t stop wrecking... This is a wide open door for AMD to eat then for breakfast.
Yes. Seems likely AMD and other server vendors will lag the latest nodes due to mobile always being willing to spend big to to go first. But the corollary to that is that AMD and other server vendors will always have a relatively cheap, mature process that will still in all likelihood be as good or better than Intel's leading edge.

If Intel is looking at 2023 for Sapphire Rapids then that most likely means TSMC/Samsung are on 3nm, with 5nm being the cheap mature process for AMD and others to move onto, with that 5nm being ahead of Intel's (roughly comparable) 7nm process.

And if anything I think your last bullet is underselling how dire the situation is with regards to AMD.
Quite possible, but I wanted to give an even-handed account as a summary before I weighed in in the subsequent discussion. I would tend to agree with you.

The linked article says that they won’t catch up to AMD until 2024-25 if both execute perfectly. I’d say that the probability of AMD out-executing Intel is pretty damn high. Hell 2025 is starting to get into the timeframe where Qualcomm is a realistic threat in the PC market and ARM server chips are a threat in the cloud.
Realistically I don't think it will take that long. If you look at the clocks for AMD/Intel's big datacenter chips they are quite a bit below their client clocks, and turbo isn't all that useful for datacenter workloads. Which means ARMH licensable cores are likely already competitive in per-thread performance in realistic datacenter use cases. The datacenter chips we're seeing now are mostly the previous N1 generation of chips. Once the announced N2/V1 chips are available it'll basically be just platform inertia preventing the shift, and I don't think that will prove all that resilient on multi-year timescales. Migrating is easier than ever with cloud providers doing the heavy lifting.
 

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It’s like the train wreck that doesn’t stop wrecking... This is a wide open door for AMD to eat then for breakfast.
Yes. Seems likely AMD and other server vendors will lag the latest nodes due to mobile always being willing to spend big to to go first. But the corollary to that is that AMD and other server vendors will always have a relatively cheap, mature process that will still in all likelihood be as good or better than Intel's leading edge.
I know this is a server thread but I was actually thinking equally or more so about the consumer market. If AMD makes major inroads into the consumer market that impacts the surface over which basic R&D can be amortized. It chokes investment in fabs, starves design teams, and takes the halo off which negatively impacts the brand.

It would be different if they had gone down a different path where servers were more distinct from consumer offerings - say if IA64 had succeeded in the server space. Then a setback in the consumer space wouldn’t bleed over as much into the server space. But for the last 15 years they’ve been on a strategy that has a single core design scaling from the consumer through the server. It’s the right strategy and has been very efficient for them... but... it means that catastrophic losses on the consumer side are more likely to spill over into their server business. Live by the sword, die by the sword.
 

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It’s like the train wreck that doesn’t stop wrecking... This is a wide open door for AMD to eat then for breakfast.
Yes. Seems likely AMD and other server vendors will lag the latest nodes due to mobile always being willing to spend big to to go first. But the corollary to that is that AMD and other server vendors will always have a relatively cheap, mature process that will still in all likelihood be as good or better than Intel's leading edge.
I know this is a server thread but I was actually thinking equally or more so about the consumer market. If AMD makes major inroads into the consumer market that impacts the surface over which basic R&D can be amortized. It chokes investment in fabs, starves design teams, and takes the halo off which negatively impacts the brand.
That picture is kinda messy. AMD is already a majority of retail CPUs, meaning boxed CPUs sold separately from a PC. AMD doesn't prioritize laptops so I'm not sure how much damage they can do, though Rocket Lake drawing 3x the power and still getting crushed by Zen 3 won't help with OEM desktops. In terms of the PC market I'd bet on Apple's switch hurting Intel more.

Realistically this hurts Intel from both directions because AMD and Apple specialize in different areas but Intel's financials lean heavily on both those areas.

In terms of other manufacturers ability to hurt Intel on the laptop, I dunno, AMD has demonstrated a strong adherence to the desktop/server space. One might ask why they don't prioritize the laptop more but if they're capacity limited at TSMC it seems like that would end up being a lot of R&D to remain trapped under the same ceiling. As strange as it might seem I think ARM is more of a threat to Intel on laptops.

That might seem strange but if you think about it, Chromebooks are roughly on par with Apple in market share, and a lot of those are Intel simply because that was the only way to deliver acceptable performance. With x86-competitive cores coming from ARMH, Intel can lose another Apple-equivalent on a platform that has no commitment to x86 legacy code. Those two together is like a quarter of the total PC market. We don't know how sticky x86 will be on Windows as ARM hardware and x86 emulation improves, but the conditions are set for them to have severely impaired growth in both datacenter and client for a long time, even assuming no further process stumbles. Add to that the pressure from ARM in the datacenter.

So yeah. Pretty grim.
 

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It’s like the train wreck that doesn’t stop wrecking... This is a wide open door for AMD to eat then for breakfast.
Yes. Seems likely AMD and other server vendors will lag the latest nodes due to mobile always being willing to spend big to to go first. But the corollary to that is that AMD and other server vendors will always have a relatively cheap, mature process that will still in all likelihood be as good or better than Intel's leading edge.
I know this is a server thread but I was actually thinking equally or more so about the consumer market. If AMD makes major inroads into the consumer market that impacts the surface over which basic R&D can be amortized. It chokes investment in fabs, starves design teams, and takes the halo off which negatively impacts the brand.
That picture is kinda messy. AMD is already a majority of retail CPUs, meaning boxed CPUs sold separately from a PC. AMD doesn't prioritize laptops so I'm not sure how much damage they can do, though Rocket Lake drawing 3x the power and still getting crushed by Zen 3 won't help with OEM desktops. In terms of the PC market I'd bet on Apple's switch hurting Intel more.
If AMD doesn’t push further and further into the laptop space between now and 2024 (the rosiest, incredibly unlikely estimation of when Intel could catch up) I’ll eat my hat. They’ve already got a few OEM wins with Renoir and that will only increase into the Zen4 generation and beyond. And if Qualcomm picks off the “light usage” and don’t need x86 demographic, then the remainder are more power users who need x86. That’s pretty good for Zen4+. Essentially laptops could get split between Apple crushing the premium market, Qualcomm taking the cheap end and AMD mopping up the “locked in to x86” power users.

And there’s a synergistic brand deterioration thing. Now that Apple is off Intel there will be lots of press about how they’ve been dethroned. Then Qualcomm starts coming on taking more marketshare. At this point, even if you’re locked in to x86 you’re going to take a more serious look at AMD because Intel inside has lost that inevitability. And when AMD starts taking marketshare, all of a sudden it’s a media pile on.
 

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https://www.anandtech.com/show/16315/th ... a-review/9

Further to the per-core issue, this shows an 80 core ARM N1 processor performing similarly to a 64 core AMD EPYC. So even with the older N1 (Cortex A76 based) there's still not much difference in per-thread performance. X86 must downclock in massively multicore configurations which costs it the advantage in per-thread performance.

With Neoverse N2 and especially V1, I would not be surprised to see ARM achieve an advantage in per-thread performance in such configurations.
 
https://www.anandtech.com/show/16315/the-ampere-altra-review/9

Further to the per-core issue, this shows an 80 core ARM N1 processor performing similarly to a 64 core AMD EPYC. So even with the older N1 (Cortex A76 based) there's still not much difference in per-thread performance. X86 must downclock in massively multicore configurations which costs it the advantage in per-thread performance.

With Neoverse N2 and especially V1, I would not be surprised to see ARM achieve an advantage in per-thread performance in such configurations.

Yeah if Arm are accurate the V1 should quite easily beat all current Xeons and EPYCs. I've been half expecting Amazon to spring a Graviton 3 on us any day. The HPC targetted SiPearl Rhea chip with 72 V1s and HBM2E/DDR5 must be a monster.
 

redleader

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It is like that Hemmingway quote about going bankrupt slowly and then suddenly. We have been talking about how Intel was in trouble for 4 years now, and then got slowly worse, then suddenly there is a tipping point where everything goes at once.

I still think the bigger indicator than what ARM or MS do is when Ice Lake-SP ships. It has been 6 months from launch for at least a year now. If they finally get it out the door in some kind of volume the first half of the year, things will stabilize, or at least get worse much more slowly because they'll have a competitive (if less profitable) part. If they can't do that, then everyone who doesn't move towards AMD or ARM is going to start to be seriously disadvantaged.
 

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wrylachlan

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I still think the bigger indicator than what ARM or MS do is when Ice Lake-SP ships. It has been 6 months from launch for at least a year now. If they finally get it out the door in some kind of volume the first half of the year, things will stabilize, or at least get worse much more slowly because they'll have a competitive (if less profitable) part. If they can't do that, then everyone who doesn't move towards AMD or ARM is going to start to be seriously disadvantaged.
Given how long it takes to assemble a competitive chip design team, design the chip and get it to manufacture I doubt a few months difference in IceLake availability is going to move the needle. It’s the long term trends that are making the decision within Amazon and MS and Apple to pursue ARM. I feel as though Intel has gone past the point of no return in terms of their credibility. It’s just far far too risky to bet your business on Intel righting the ship.

For MS specifically, they also have the advantage of deriving a ton of Azure’s value from 1st party software running on top of it - from O365 to their other enterprise software on Azure, a lot of code is in their control. That means that they can optimize software for ARM and see huge value from day 1.
 

KD5MDK

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Now Microsoft is reportedly exploring an in-house ARM design for Azure: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/202...-developing-its-own-in-house-arm-cpu-designs/

They don’t want to be left behind when Graviton takes off for AWS.
The rumor also had them considering a custom ARM SoC for the surface line.
I like how we had a thread about story where Microsoft didn’t comment on any future plans in which we have people arguing that “X is not what Microsoft said they’re doing, they said they’re doing Y.”
 

Megalodon

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For MS specifically, they also have the advantage of deriving a ton of Azure’s value from 1st party software running on top of it - from O365 to their other enterprise software on Azure, a lot of code is in their control. That means that they can optimize software for ARM and see huge value from day 1.
One of the things I think a lot of people don't appreciate about cloud providers is they're moving a lot of their stack into "serverless" stuff. This is where you hand off a database configuration or a block of code or whatever to the provider without explicitly having to interact with the instance or the underlying platform. These tend to be non-platform specific abstractions like a block of PHP code or whatever. This means and even when you exclude first party applications, even with customer workloads, and even when nobody explicitly opts in, there's still going to be a ton of stuff that's pretty easily portable.

Even if you're looking to get into low level development, the languages that are getting popular for such workloads these days like rust and go have a very good portability story compared to C, and C isn't even that bad. Torvalds keeps proclaiming people don't want to use a different platform in dev vs production, but from what I can tell a ton of people develop on Mac and deploy to Linux, and in my experience the OS-level APIs are a bigger deal than any ISA differences. It's still a fairly straightforward way to work.
 

redleader

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I still think the bigger indicator than what ARM or MS do is when Ice Lake-SP ships. It has been 6 months from launch for at least a year now. If they finally get it out the door in some kind of volume the first half of the year, things will stabilize, or at least get worse much more slowly because they'll have a competitive (if less profitable) part. If they can't do that, then everyone who doesn't move towards AMD or ARM is going to start to be seriously disadvantaged.

Given how long it takes to assemble a competitive chip design team, design the chip and get it to manufacture I doubt a few months difference in IceLake availability is going to move the needle.

Disagree. You don't need to assemble to a chip design team to sign a supply contract with AMD. ARM is an option that the cloud providers might be pushed towards in the long term, but in the short term there is limit to how long companies can hold off purchasing waiting for Ice Lake. After a point, AMD is going to collect those orders.
 

fragrom

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