Recent adventure with handheld consoles took me back to Apple

1096bimu

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It started with the ROG Ally and this AMD Z1 Extreme/7840U chip, supposedly the first ever x86 SOC that is somewhat comparable in efficiency as Apple Silicon, so I bought one, it wasn't very good because power management is still garbage, idle power is way higher than Apple. This is a game console so maybe idle is not what you do most of the time, fair enough, but other problem, I suspected this but I wanted to give Windows yet another shot, it yet again failed, for like the 5th time over ~15 years,
that is, the inability to reliably sleep and wake. Most of the time it works, but occasionally, it ither wakes by itself, or it can't wake when you want it to, extremely annoying for a handheld, returned the product.

Then a few months later, Steam Deck OLED came out, this time it absolutely can sleep, flawless, great job. Valve also somehow managed to turn a bunch of Linux hax that would normally require hours of command pasting into the konsole, work automatically, as a game console to run Windows games. Extremely polished software and hardware experience, great stuff. However I ended up selling it.

I just think the handheld game console thing doesn't make sense for me personally, due to the amount and type of games I play, makes more sense to just get a MacBook, but that's all I will say here, more interestingly for you, hopefully:

Apple Silicon still owns the game, any game with native MacOS code, just demonstrates utter humiliation for any non-Apple chip, still, and I don't know why nobody wants to do anything about it. Comparison between Apple Silicon and PC hardware is hard to find, while this is partially because of compatibility, I would argue it is also because lots of people don't like to see Apple dominate the charts.

So I had to simply do the comparison my self, with Baulder's Gate 3. We run 1280x800 no FSR, Low preset, I have 2 chars standing just before the trigger for the grove fight looking at the hills.

Z1 Extreme 30W: ~63FPS
Van Gogh 6nm 15W: ~37FPS
(these results taken from Youtube resources, because I already sold my consoles)

M2 15W: 50FPS
M2 9W: 42FPS

M3 Pro 14c 15W: 115FPS
M3 Pro 14c 25W: 132FPS


First let's focus on the Z1 versus M2 result, M2 is actually made on an older node with lower transistor count, but more stuff to do, Apple puts in these huge display engines for example. Apple GPUs are supposedly not as good as others for polygon rendering, yet M2 is still more efficient. There's no way to increase power on my M2 because it's in a MacBook Air, but if we could run it at 30w it might match of surpass the Z1 Extreme.

What's really impressive is how much performance M2 maintains at just 9w, where as Z1 Extreme can barely run at less than 12w. M2 can kill the Deck with just passive cooling 9w. They remade the same chip in 4NM for the Deck OLED which is slightly more powerful, so maybe can match M2 at 9w with 15w. However, the Steam Deck cannot keep up with the CPU demands in Act 3 of the game with just4 CPU cores, which is no problem for M2, or the Z1 for that matter.

Then if we look at the latest M3 Pro chip, oh boy, it's just embarrassing, M3 Pro is over 2x as fast as the Z1 Extreme at the same power level. It is in fact so strong, It can maintain 30fps at 2560x1600 ultra settings:

RTX3090 368W: 142FPS
M3 Pro 14c 20W: 30FPS
(GPU power only)

M3 Pro has ~1/5th the performance while using ~1/18th the power, for 3.6x efficiency, which is certainly not crazy considering the 3090 is a much older 8nm chip for desktop. The M3 Pro has less GPU cores than M2 Pro, but Apple claims they redid the architecture so I guess it is now actually much more efficient with game rendering, rather than just video/compute like before. Benchmarks elsewhere can confirm that the M3 Pro is in fact stronger than M2 Pro with less cores.

So on one hand, Apple Silicon still humiliates the competition in performance per watt, we're already 4 years into laptop M chips, and what 10 years into phone chips, still nobody could compete. Valve says garbage like the technology for Steam Deck 2 does not yet exist, but it does, in Apple devices, I bet the small M3 can double the Steam Deck with the same power, is that not enough for a Steam Deck 2?

On the other hand, just from a consumer perspective, instead of dropping that ~$700 on a handheld console, maybe you could just add it to your laptop budget and get a better MacBook. Obviously I understand most games still don't come to Mac but do you really have to play every game on the go? At least for me, keyboard and trackpad is better than gamepad because most games I play are better on keyboard, like BG3. In fact I hardly use the controller for my gaming PC, because basically only racing games are better with a controller, and I don't play fighting games.
 

Paladin

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It's kind of interesting I guess but it's a bit unfair to compare a $600-700 portable gaming console vs a $1100-2000 laptop. The cooling differences alone make up a lot of the performance difference. The M2/M3 chips are excellent but they're not really positioned as competitor to the mobile gaming console. I guess you can use an Apple laptop for potable gaming but it's not really what someone wants when they are looking at a Nintendo Switch, Steamdeck or ROG Ally.

Really, the bottom line is that the ROG Ally is not a great product, it has a lot of compromises. The Steamdeck is better for the purpose though also a bit compromised in some ways. A laptop is a whole different thing and gaming on Mac is still a challenge for a lot of people's desired experience.

The idea of using an M3 chip in a Steamdeck2 is interesting speculation but Apple would never do it and the work to get the Steamdeck OS working on it would be pretty difficult as well, I would guess.
 

cateye

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This OP feels like it's missing the forest for the trees. What matters more, the games or the technology? If it's the latter, then I'd argue you're not that interested in gaming to begin with and just want to be distracted. And if that's the case, there's little reason not to just use your smartphone, regardless of platform, since they're all already tuned to balance performance vs. efficiency.

If gaming is the goal, then the tradeoffs of the technology don't matter—the point is to achieve access to the game in the manner you want: A hand-build, god-mode PC with gaming mouse and keyboard for pro-level domination, a console with controller so you can play on your comfy living room couch on the big-ass TV, or a mobile gaming rig for playing on the go.

All of technology is tradeoffs. The ROG isn't half as bad as the Switch, which is just loaded with compromises—and yet, I own two of them. it's essentially a shit-level Android tablet, hardware-wise. Yet it's just so perfect as a mobile gaming device, and comes complete with a huge library of exclusives you can't play anywhere else. I also have a Series X in the living room, which has its own compromises in terms of design and function. What do I do everything else on? Macs. Just never gaming. Because the games I want to play aren't there and never will be, and the games are the whole point of "gaming."

TL,DR: Actually, it's about the games.
 
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Nevarre

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RTX3090 368W: 142FPS
M3 Pro 14c 20W: 30FPS
(GPU power only)

M3 Pro has ~1/5th the performance while using ~1/18th the power, for 3.6x efficiency

Presuming all of this is true-- and cherry picking the least efficient GPU from the least efficient recent generation doesn't skew the numbers...

One of those is a playable framerate and the other is not.

It doesn't matter if you get 15 FPS at .0000001w because it's not sufficient no matter how efficient.

So on one hand, Apple Silicon still humiliates the competition in performance per watt, we're already 4 years into laptop M chips, and what 10 years into phone chips, still nobody could compete. Valve says garbage like the technology for Steam Deck 2 does not yet exist, but it does, in Apple devices, I bet the small M3 can double the Steam Deck with the same power, is that not enough for a Steam Deck 2?

If Apple refuses to sell their tech to 3rd parties, then that's shame on Apple and not the other way around.

You're also picking the fight during the wrong year. The Snapdragon 8 Gen 3 beats the A17 Pro in overall benchmarks with the A17 Pro only edging ahead in some single-core tests and the MediaTek Dimensity 9300 is comparable if perhaps slightly less efficient. Those are all mobile SoC, working within the heat/power constraints of a phone.

The Snapdragon X Elite is due out in a few months and has been sampled to Microsoft. It'll run Windows ARM and per manufacturer claims beats the M3 by a fair margin. Per real world performance is yet to be tested and those results are only as trustworthy as manufacturer claims ever are. Should a future steam deck or similar run a future ARM product? maybe. How well it runs native x86 code would be a big question yet to be answered as games will be one of the last things to be natively ported.

dGPUs are not intended for ultimate power efficiency rather massive parallel performance, but current gen is a big efficiency improvement. Apple's M-series iGPUs are very good for their market segment, but take the power and heat constraints away and much faster options exist.

Ultimately it's about your preference against a controller (it's not all racing and fighting games, but ok-- I tend to strongly prefer a mouse and keyboard for most gaming but that's not always the right tool for the job) and ignoring that a limited games library ultimately can be boiled down to does the platform have the games I want to play? That's actually a lot more important than everything else and Apple's library of games is quite incomplete. There's an imperfect and incomplete library of handheld system games, but if that meets your needs it meets your needs.

It's also presumptuous that someone even has a laptop budget or that it only makes sense to increase your laptop budget and avoid buying a handheld system. Maybe a Backbone for their phone is more than is sufficient, or maybe not even that. What are the actual requirements for any given consumer? Hard to tell without asking them.

TL;DR take it to the Battlefront (seriously, take it there-- it'll get better traction.)
 
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koala

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A laptop is not a Steam Deck, a Steam Deck is not a laptop.

The Steam Deck does not pretend to replace laptops. It's very good at what it does. Could Apple put an M3 in a Deck factor and blow the Steam Deck out of the water? Surely, if you discounted that the M3 is not x86. Even if Apple managed to run x86 games well on M3 or they managed to get a library of M3-native games. But it does not matter, Apple is not interested in competing with the Deck, so I don't even know what's the contention here.

I think everyone knows Apple ARM hardware is very capable!
 

ant1pathy

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One of those is a playable framerate and the other is not.
I'm going to gently push back on this a bit; 30 FPS is over the threshold of "playable" for non-twitch-shooter online games. I recall having a utility for WoW back in the day that would shift the graphics sliders up and down to target a minimum of 24 fps (Ironforge would tank it, Nagrand would let it soar and enjoy the landscape with far draw distance). 15 is down in the "ok, we're having problems", but if the game is good 30 is definitely acceptable.
 

Echohead2

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I'm going to gently push back on this a bit; 30 FPS is over the threshold of "playable" for non-twitch-shooter online games. I recall having a utility for WoW back in the day that would shift the graphics sliders up and down to target a minimum of 24 fps (Ironforge would tank it, Nagrand would let it soar and enjoy the landscape with far draw distance). 15 is down in the "ok, we're having problems", but if the game is good 30 is definitely acceptable.
Nope...if it isn't 2,000 fps at 12,000 x 8,000 resolution then it is CRAP. WORTHLESS. N00b L023R.
 

LordDaMan

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Having 30 fps may or may not make a game unplayable. It depends on what sort of game and what sorts of demands the game puts on the computer GPU wise

Any sort of action game you may experience problems as 30 fps is an average and depending on what's happening onscreen, the game may be unplayable at parts. Years back i had MK9 on my computer and it ran at a little over 30 fps with settings turned up. It ran great, until the forest stage and then it became unplayable. I had to turn the settings way down to get a consistent framerate to make that stage playable.

I don't know bg3 enough to say either way if it is playable at that framerate. I would imagine yes given it's a RPG.
 

Nevarre

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There's a big difference between 30 FPS locked and 30 FPS average. Since those handhelds are PC-like, they're not 30 FPS locked.

FWIW, BG3 may be nominally playable at low FPS as it's mostly turn-based, but it looks like ass. It's definitely a game that benefits from all the GPU you can throw at it and DLSS/FSR on top.

But mainly, claiming 30 FPS nominally means that it's going to dip into the low double digits, possibly with significant hitching/long frame times. I'm not paying money for that experience.
 
A laptop is not a Steam Deck, a Steam Deck is not a laptop.

The Steam Deck does not pretend to replace laptops. It's very good at what it does. Could Apple put an M3 in a Deck factor and blow the Steam Deck out of the water? Surely, if you discounted that the M3 is not x86. Even if Apple managed to run x86 games well on M3 or they managed to get a library of M3-native games. But it does not matter, Apple is not interested in competing with the Deck, so I don't even know what's the contention here.

I think everyone knows Apple ARM hardware is very capable!
We also know that if you're not gaming on battery, then any of my even older Zephyrus's will blow the fruity most-often-a-trinket out of the water for not just power but more importantly, actual utility. I haven't upgraded my M1 MBP's yet since there's nothing worth doing on MacOS that I'd need any more power for.
 
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Exordium01

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There's a big difference between 30 FPS locked and 30 FPS average. Since those handhelds are PC-like, they're not 30 FPS locked.

FWIW, BG3 may be nominally playable at low FPS as it's mostly turn-based, but it looks like ass. It's definitely a game that benefits from all the GPU you can throw at it and DLSS/FSR on top.

But mainly, claiming 30 FPS nominally means that it's going to dip into the low double digits, possibly with significant hitching/long frame times. I'm not paying money for that experience.
BG3 actually runs shockingly well on M-series Macs.

I’ve been playing it on my 14” M2 pro laptop over my gaming pc with an i7 12700k and RTX 3080 because the portability has meant that I actually get to play it and it runs smoothly on maxed settings.

I’m tempted to try the iOS build of Death Stranding mostly out of curiosity, but I don’t need to buy a game I haven’t played yet on a third platform… It doesn’t really make sense to port Horizon Zero Dawn’s weird cousin first.

As much as people are dogpiling on the OP, these are pretty capable gaming platforms and by all reports the AAA titles that get ported do perform well per watt. It’s not a crazy statement to say that the Steam Deck is a bit of a disappointment from a performance perspective.
 
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koala

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Could Apple put an M3 in a Deck factor and blow the Steam Deck out of the water? Surely, if you discounted that the M3 is not x86. Even if Apple managed to run x86 games well on M3 or they managed to get a library of M3-native games.
Interesting- I wasn't aware there was an ARM build of BG3. As I assumed, M3-native games can work well, and I have no doubt that a 2029€ laptop can perform better than a 420€ handheld.

But still, Apple won't build a Steam Deck, and I still think most games don't have ARM builds. So likely Linux x86 is still, in the real world, a better choice than macOS on ARM for gaming, even though Apple hardware is extremely good in most scenarios.

(And surprisingly, apparently Linux x86 is a decent choice for gaming, even when compared with Windows x86!)
 

Claropus

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per manufacturer claims beats the M3 by a fair margin
No, per manufacturer claims beats the M2 by a fair margin. Which is fair enough, because they are on about the same process (N4 vs N5P, who can tell the difference). But, for comparison, they are pitting a 12P Elite X against a 4P+4E M2. Somehow that seems a little unrealistic.
 

Aeonsim

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M3 Pro is 37B transistors at N3 vs 25B at N4 for Z1 extreme, one would hope it was noticeably faster...

Apple makes good chips, but they're willing to spend a lot of money to do so. M3 Pro has 50% more transistors, 50% more memory bandwidth, on die memory, speciality accelerators, and a process node advantage. You certainly pay extra for all that. Traditionally in x86 land the assumption has been you would just add a dedicated GPU for your extra performance, so they've never invested to much into pushing apu performance. Will be interesting to see how that changes with AMD's rumored high end Zen 5 apu.

Also have you measured the power numbers directly? M2 Pro running BG3 in Act three is running at 48W on my 14" Mac Pro...
TSC 5NM vs 4NM are very similar 138 vs 143 Mt/mm2 with other major characteristics being similar, compared to N3 where transistor density goes to 180-220Mt/mm2 depending on the variant used.
 
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M3 Pro is 37B transistors at N3 vs 25B at N4 for Z1 extreme, one would hope it was noticeably faster...

Apple makes good chips, but they're willing to spend a lot of money to do so. M3 Pro has 50% more transistors, 50% more memory bandwidth, on die memory, speciality accelerators, and a process node advantage. You certainly pay extra for all that. Traditionally in x86 land the assumption has been you would just add a dedicated GPU for your extra performance, so they've never invested to much into pushing apu performance. Will be interesting to see how that changes with AMD's rumored high end Zen 5 apu.
It's not just that Apple spends a lot of money, they make a lot of choices that aren't being made by other vendors - axing 32 bit support, for instance simplifies the whole architecture and creates performance opportunities. That's what goes unsaid - Apple shapes the developer space very aggressively by axing support for compatibility items that have newer, better solutions, which gives them opportunities to architect the systems they do.

So saying 'Qualcomm can just do what Apple does' - ehh, not really. They have a lot of customers and they don't have the ability to shape that developer space. It's even worse for x86 - at least Apple has been yanking ARM in specific directions where x86 is being pulled by two different vendors.
 
Apple Silicon still owns the game, any game with native MacOS code, just demonstrates utter humiliation for any non-Apple chip
How many of those games are there, exactly? 5?

still, and I don't know why nobody wants to do anything about it.
Well, that would be why.
Comparison between Apple Silicon and PC hardware is hard to find, while this is partially because of compatibility, I would argue it is also because lots of people don't like to see Apple dominate the charts.
lol. Ok.

You're hilarious. The first thing I prioritize when choosing a console is definitely which one will save me $15 on my electricity bill at the end of the year, not which has the most games, because performance/watt is uber alles. I buy a console to rave online about how powerful it is, not to play its non-existent games. :rolleyes:

First let's focus on the Z1 versus M2 result
You are comparing a handheld that fits in your (oversized) pocket to a laptop. You are comparing an Apple to literally a different fruit. Great job, bud.

Apple will never be able to compete in gaming. They are culturally incapable of providing what gamers need and desire. Hanging your hopes on an Apple product being a gaming machine is like getting heavily invested in one of the dozens of Google Chat apps over the years. Apple has shown time and again that the only bone they throw to gamers is an occasional middle finger every few years. I have a few hundred dollars worth of Mac 32 bit games to prove it.

There are so many things culturally that makes Apple incompatible with gaming. For example, they've never been able to build a proper cooling system, and modern consoles are all about cooling. Going all the way back the early compact Macs, Apple has been allergic to providing sufficient cooling:
macchimney_blog.jpg

wqtyxybvay841.jpg

They just can't engineer good cooling solutions, whereas any modern console manufacturer, a HUGE amount of resources are put towards proper cooling. The 360 was a huge lesson learned for MS, yet Apple didn't learn the very same lesson when they had a whole plague of Nvidia chips that melted themselves. A plague that didn't really affect PCs of the time, either, even though they used the same GPUs. They still provide insufficient cooling decades later.

Generation after generation, upstart console manufacturers are taught the same hard lesson: he who has the most power doesn't always win. The Series X is way more powerful than the PS5. The One X was way more powerful than the PS4 Pro The OG Xbox was significantly more powerful than the PS2. Everything is always more powerful than Nintendo. The only thing that guarantees success in the gaming industry is the games. So that means, either be a kickass 1st party publisher yourself, or foster a very strong relationship with your developers.

Apple, on the other hand, is infamous for kicking the legs right out from under their developers. After all, they're the company that made people come up with the verb "to Sherlock a company". That ain't gonna fly when you are in the gaming industry. There's a reason Sony keeps spanking MS, despite Xbox's technically superior hardware generation after generation. I mean, fuck, Apple started a years long feud with ATI simply because they dared to mention one of their products was in a Mac a couple days early. Apple removed ATIs name from all their keynote presentation slides, and switched entirely to their competitor the next year! And this was before their years long feud with the other graphics chip company, Nvidia!
No gaming publisher is going to work with such a petty company that can't play well with others.

If they ever entered the gaming industry in a serious way, they'd exit super quickly, because they will alienate any serious partner that would try to work with them on their platform. And without partners, your console has no games, so all the processing power in the world will never lead to success

And hey, look at that, they did enter the game industry in the past, and they exited quickly partly for the same reason I explained:
applepippin2.jpg
 
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As much as people are dogpiling on the OP, these are pretty capable gaming platforms and by all reports the AAA titles that get ported do perform well per watt. It’s not a crazy statement to say that the Steam Deck is a bit of a disappointment from a performance perspective.
But that's kind of the point of the Deck. Valve was very explicit that they were designing the Deck for a price point. SO many decisions were made to keep the price exactly what it launched at. PC gaming has a reputation for being very expensive just to get a basic, acceptable machine that can play games. Everyone has a computer. Not everyone can afford a gaming PC, which is why it was until recently a rarified hobby that few people could participate in. If you wanted to game on a reasonable budget, you got a console.

The Deck can play literally thousands of preexisting PC games that used to require exotic, bespoke hardware, but it can do it for only $500. That's a huge statement. The compromise to do it that cheaply, of course, is you're only going to get acceptable performance. It's obviously not going to be one of the best ways to play PC games, but it's going to be the cheapest and one of the most convenient.

So that's why it's hilariously ironic to point to a $2000 Mac, compare it to a $500 PC, and declare "See! Apple Silicon spanks x86 at gaming!'

Of course a Mac that costs 3-4x as much should be able to play games better than a $500 PC designed first and foremost as a budget device. The fact that Macs couldn't until recently is an indictment of Macs as gaming machines, not of the Steam Deck. The Nintendo Wii was woefully underpowered compared to a Dell Alienware of that time period, but it was the way more successful gaming machine.
 
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This is a game console so maybe idle is not what you do most of the time, fair enough, but other problem, I suspected this but I wanted to give Windows yet another shot, it yet again failed, for like the 5th time over ~15 years,
that is, the inability to reliably sleep and wake. Most of the time it works, but occasionally, it ither wakes by itself, or it can't wake when you want it to, extremely annoying for a handheld, returned the product.
Rather than a real complaint, it sounds like you just suck at using computers. I haven't faced this issue in at least 10 years. I switched back to using Windows full time around the time Windows 10 was launched. I still use Macs regularly, and I wouldn't say one platform is more stable than the other. Macs have their own raft of issues. Maybe you're just installing a bunch of crapware that is shittifying your experience, and you've become immune to the equally frequent and common error modes that Macs shit the bed with?
 

Echohead2

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It's not just that Apple spends a lot of money, they make a lot of choices that aren't being made by other vendors - axing 32 bit support, for instance simplifies the whole architecture and creates performance opportunities. That's what goes unsaid - Apple shapes the developer space very aggressively by axing support for compatibility items that have newer, better solutions, which gives them opportunities to architect the systems they do.

So saying 'Qualcomm can just do what Apple does' - ehh, not really. They have a lot of customers and they don't have the ability to shape that developer space. It's even worse for x86 - at least Apple has been yanking ARM in specific directions where x86 is being pulled by two different vendors.

So...if the other chip makers are competitive with all of that other baggage like 32-bit support...how much better will they be when they transition to also not having it? Or will they always have it?
 
Of course a Mac that costs 3-4x as much should be able to play games better than a $500 PC designed first and foremost as a budget device. The fact that Macs couldn't until recently is an indictment of Macs as gaming machines, not of the Steam Deck. The Nintendo Wii was woefully underpowered compared to a Dell Alienware of that time period, but it was the way more successful gaming machine.
The iPhone single core is double that of the Steam Deck. iPhone is also the biggest gaming platform by sales volume.

You're working very hard here.
 
The iPhone single core is double that of the Steam Deck. iPhone is also the biggest gaming platform by sales volume.

You're working very hard here.
Let's shift the goalposts even more and talk about how any PC that can play Windows Solitaire is the biggest gaming platform by sales volume. You know what, I think Kellogg's and Post make the biggest gaming platform by volume, don't their cereal boxes usually come with a word search or maze on the back? They must sell in the hundreds of millions of units a quarter.

I thought the OP originally made a comparison to Macs? All of the benchmarks in the OP are of M-series chips, not A-series chips. Heck, they even mention that keyboard/trackpad is a better interface than controller ( talk about working very hard 🤣). I wonder how touchscreens fare in their assessment of ideal gaming controller. 🤔
 
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ant1pathy

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Let's shift the goalposts even more and talk about how any PC that can play Windows Solitaire is the biggest gaming platform by sales volume. You know what, I think Kellogg's and Post make the biggest gaming platform by volume, don't their cereal boxes usually come with a word search or maze on the back? They must sell in the hundreds of millions of units a quarter.
By revenue, mobile gaming is more than 50% of the market. The only reason not to cross-compare phones to consoles is a legacy of the "well, that's not real gaming" elitist mindset.
 
By revenue, mobile gaming is more than 50% of the market. The only reason not to cross-compare phones to consoles is a legacy of the "well, that's not real gaming" elitist mindset.

You might as well go to a forum for people who love to discuss oil paintings and tell them "Go take a photo, it's all the same shit anyway because billions more photos are taken a year compared to paintings painted. The only reason not to cross compare with an iPhone when choosing a new set of brushes is because you're an elitist". And you think you're the one who's not coming across like a rich snob? JFC. A $1200 iPhone isn't the answer to every hobby.

Someone very wise once told me "You're working very hard here."

Seriously, let's include Corn Flakes and Rice Krispies in this discussion, because if you think a word jumble or match-3 game isn't "real gaming", you're an elitist. How does the performance per watt of the iFruit 15 Pro Max compare to a box of Fruity Pebbles? Discuss!
 
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Louis XVI

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You might as well go to a forum for people who love to discuss oil paintings and tell them "Go take a photo, it's all the same shit anyway because billions more photos are taken a year compared to paintings painted. The only reason not to cross compare with an iPhone when choosing a new set of brushes is because you're an elitist". And you think you're the one who's not coming across like a rich snob? JFC. A $1200 iPhone isn't the answer to every hobby.

Someone very wise once told me "You're working very hard here."

No, he's right. I (sample size:1!) play plenty of games on my Playstation 5 and iPad Pro, and I probably spend three times as much time on the iPad as on the Playstation. There are loads of good, engaging games on mobile, and dismissing it all is genuinely elitist and myopic.
 
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No, he's right. I (sample size:1!) play plenty of games on my Playstation 5 and iPad Pro, and I probably spend three times as much time on the iPad as on the Playstation. There are loads of good, engaging games on mobile, and dismissing it all is genuinely elitist and myopic.
And what is your opinion of the games available on Lucky Charms? Every single morning, I spend at least half an hour reading the back of the box, that must count for something. Come on, let's not be elitist here.

This discussion started with a post benchmarking Mac vs ROG Ally/Deck/etc, I don't see why the goalposts can't be shifted just a wee bit more to include Froot Loops and Cap'n Crunch as well. At least Post and Kellogg's offers more native games than the Mac. so there might actually be more to discuss. 😂
 
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Schpyder

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This is a silly argument to be having. Yes, mobile gaming revenues are massive. However, barring individual cases, the target audiences and assumptions about each differ wildly. Basically no one is considering an iDevice as a replacement for a PS5 or gaming PC. They're complimentary devices, with significantly different use cases. Treating them as fungible products is as silly as treating individual games as fungible.
 

LordDaMan

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And what is your opinion of the games available on Lucky Charms? Every single morning, I spend at least half an hour reading the back of the box, that must count for something. Come on, let's not be elitist here.

This discussion started with a post benchmarking Mac vs ROG Ally/Deck/etc, I don't see why the goalposts can't be shifted just a wee bit more to include Froot Loops and Cap'n Crunch as well. At least Post and Kellogg's offers more native games than the Mac. so there might actually be more to discuss. 😂
The Lucky Charms argument is hysterical. It's both completely absurd and exactly on point :biggreen:
 

ant1pathy

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This is a silly argument to be having. Yes, mobile gaming revenues are massive. However, barring individual cases, the target audiences and assumptions about each differ wildly. Basically no one is considering an iDevice as a replacement for a PS5 or gaming PC. They're complimentary devices, with significantly different use cases. Treating them as fungible products is as silly as treating individual games as fungible.
Aren't Steam Decks the same, though? Complementary products for people who already have a gaming tower? Is there a large market for people who will opt for only a Steam Deck?
 

LordDaMan

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Aren't Steam Decks the same, though? Complementary products for people who already have a gaming tower?

No. It's a a game console, albeit one that runs steam and most windows games. It's meant to replace the towers, not supplement them.
Is there a large market for people who will opt for only a Steam Deck?
I don't know exact numbers but It's big enough that there's multiple other vendors putting out similar devices.
 

ant1pathy

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No. It's a a game console, albeit one that runs steam and most windows games. It's meant to replace the towers, not supplement them.
I would be very surprised if people with towers are buying Steam Decks and just using those. The form factor and price point has significant compromises on the horsepower front.
I don't know exact numbers but It's big enough that there's multiple other vendors putting out similar devices.
Not disputing that, but that gives zero indication if they're being bought as primary or supplemental devices.
 

LordDaMan

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I would be very surprised if people with towers are buying Steam Decks and just using those. The form factor and price point has significant compromises on the horsepower front.

Who said they where? It's a gaming rig for portable gaming. Ypu spend between $500-$700 to play games that don't normally run on a handheld, on a handheld


Not disputing that, but that gives zero indication if they're being bought as primary or supplemental devices.
Lets go over what one has to do to transfer files back and forth with a windows PC (from android authority)

  1. Install and launch KDE Connect on your PC. In Windows, you can find the app in the Microsoft Store, but direct downloads are available for all desktop platforms.
  2. Launch Desktop mode on your Steam Deck.
    1. Tap the STEAM button.
    2. On the main menu, select Power.
    3. A secondary Power menu should now appear. Select Switch to Desktop.
  3. Open the Application Launcher and select Internet > KDE Connect.
  4. When the Deck app launches, check that your PC’s name appears in the Available list under Pair. If it doesn’t, make sure that KDE Connect is running on your PC, and that both your Deck and PC are on the same SSID (network ID). The latter is most likely to be an issue if you have separate SSIDs for your 2.4, 5, and/or 6GHz Wi-Fi bands.
  5. On either your Steam Deck or PC, select the other device and choose Pair.
  6. On the device receiving the pairing request, choose Accept.
  7. You should now be able to transfer files back and forth. To copy a file from Windows to your Deck, for instance, you can right-click on it in File Explorer and use Share To > Send to remote device via KDE Connect. Going in the opposite direction, open KDE Connect and select Share File.
Do you think a supplemental device would require this much work for a simple thing like this?

Also, there's a desktop mode and a dock to connect external devices to it and use it as a full-fledged PC , something a supplemental device would not be trying to do.
 
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ant1pathy

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Who said they where? It's a gaming rig for portable gaming. Ypu spend between $500-$700 to play games that don't normally run on a handheld, on a handheld
So they're not meant to replace towers then, but to be the portable "beefier" gaming option, right?
Lets go over what one has to do to transfer files back and forth with a windows PC (from android authority)
<snip>
Do you think a supplemental device would require this much work for a simple thing like this?
Why would you need to transfer files back and forth? They're internet connected devices, software downloads directly to them.
Also, there's a desktop mode and a dock to connect external devices to it and use it as a full-fledged PC , something a supplemental device would not be trying to do.
The devices can try to do whatever. That, again, gives zero indication for what they're being bought for and used as. Maybe I'm wrong, and maybe people with gaming towers are looking at the Steam Deck with the idea of "great, I can buy this and ditch my tower". I am very suspicious of that being accurate, though, and lean much more towards the thought of "great, I can buy this Steam Deck and supplement my gaming tower by being able to play games on the go or in other locations and play on my gaming tower when I'm at home".
 
I would be very surprised if people with towers are buying Steam Decks and just using those. The form factor and price point has significant compromises on the horsepower front.

Not disputing that, but that gives zero indication if they're being bought as primary or supplemental devices.
I don't know what people are buying Steam Decks for, but I know what they are not buying Steam Decks for. They are not buying them to go on TikTok, IG, Facebook, X, Snapchat, and to took take family photos, but also for the occasional game when waiting in line at the doctors' office or DMV. Which is what iPhones are being bought for. So I don't know why iPhones belong in this conversation about gaming consoles and gaming PCs, because they are neither a gaming console, nor a gaming PC.

iPhones don't belong here because they are not bought primarily to play games. Steam Decks are though. Whether or not they are the primary device of most owners isn't really relevant. Primary or secondary, doesn't really matter, they are bought to play games. Any other usage is purely secondary. The whole freaking control scheme is set up for playing games. The clue for what each device is for should be the inputs present on them. The iPhone has zero dedicated inputs to play games, the Deck has almost only inputs for playing games, and almost no inputs for traditional mobile computing.

I guarantee you almost nobody is cross-shopping between an iPhone and a Deck/ROG Ally/Xbox/PlayStation/Gaming PC. You would more likely be deciding to buy both. Real life people cross-shop between an Android and an iPhone, and if you are a gamer, also a Deck/Ally/Xbox/PlayStation/Gaming PC. This is a stupid false dichotomy that nobody in the real world has to choose between, except for Apple fans who only have a spoon (MacBook) to bring to a gun fight, so need to bring some real ammo. Sorry bro, I've played knifey-spooney before, and the iPhone ain't no knife.

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ant1pathy

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I don't know what people are buying Steam Decks for, but I know what they are not buying Steam Decks for. They are not buying them to go on TikTok, IG, Facebook, X, Snapchat, and to took take family photos, but also for the occasional game when waiting in line at the doctors' office or DMV. Which is what iPhones are being bought for. So I don't know why iPhones belong in this conversation about gaming consoles/gaming PCs, because they are neither a gaming console, nor a gaming PC.

iPhones don't belong here because they are not bought primarily to play games. Steam Decks are though. Whether or not they are the primary device of most owners isn't really relevant. They are bought to play games. Any other usage is purely secondary. The whole freaking control scheme is set up for playing games. The clue for what each device is for should be the inputs present on them. The iPhone has zero dedicated inputs to play games, the Deck has almost only inputs for playing games, and almost no inputs for traditional mobile computing.
I poked my head into my IT guy's office Tuesday to bs for a bit, as I often do. I asked how he was liking Delta, and he told me he played NFL Blitz for the entire train ride back and forth from NYC the previous weekend.

I'll not quibble with the "primarily" portion (I think it's an incredibly silly argument, but whatever), but smartphones are incredibly potent handheld computers and trivial to supplement with a controller if non-touchscreen gaming is your thing (I play a lot of Dots and spider solitaire, and am chewing my way through Pokemon Red right now, and scooped up one of those 8BitDo controllers to play NES and SNES titles). Assassin’s Creed Shadows is getting a day-1 release on the Mac, you really want to bet that in ~5 years that won't be extended to day-1 released on Mac / iPad / iPhone? Won't count because iPhones aren't uni-taskers and can also run Snapchat? Sophistry.
 
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Aren't Steam Decks the same, though? Complementary products for people who already have a gaming tower? Is there a large market for people who will opt for only a Steam Deck?
Complementary in the sense that if I'm buying pants, I also might want to buy a belt with it. Not in the sense that if I'm buying pants, I want to choose a shirt that matches. Gamers buying iPhones still need a gaming device, just like people buying shirts probably don't want to leave home without putting on any pants.
 
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Assassin’s Creed Shadows is getting a day-1 release on the Mac, you really want to bet that in ~5 years that won't be extended to day-1 released on Mac / iPad / iPhone?
Yes. I've seen this act before from Apple, they pretend to support gaming but then potential Mac gamers are left holding the bag. Carmack has been at several Apple keynotes before, and even introduced the very first playable Doom 3 demo to the world at a MacWorld keynote speech. Yet nobody looks back and thinks of Doom 3 as a Mac game like they do with something like Dark Castle, Marathon, or Myst. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.


Today, not a single Id game is released on Mac day 1, and I don't really see that changing in a significant way. Forget Day 1 release, Doom isn't even available on Macs any more. Two giant Doom releases came and went in the past decade, AND their expansion packs, and still not a single entry on Mac. The Steam version of Doom doesn't run well on AS, if you use something like Rosetta. You'll have better luck running Doom 2016 on a Mac if you emulate Switch using an emulator compiled for AS, like Ryujinx. 🤣

Pointing to a Mac game that hasn't even launched yet as evidence that iPhone gaming will be a contender in 5 years is SOOO out of touch with reality. Honestly, this type of comment is kind of sad and pathetic, like those Windows Phone fans who were convinced their app store would have a million apps within 5 years, just like the Apple App Store, when you couldn't even get something as basic as YouTube or Spotify today. That is the state of Mac gaming today. It's the Windows Phone of the gaming world. And the iPhone is even worse.
 
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