Name brand access points that don't use a controller

Jump to latest Follow Reply
L

Lord Evermore

Ars Scholae Palatinae
1,490
Subscriptor++
  • #1
    Are there really almost no name brand access points still being made and new models coming out (Wi-Fi 6e, 7, etc) that don't require a controller of some sort for full functionality? (And are affordable. Like $50 or less.) Yes, UniFi is great, Omada is probably great, whatever, but not everyone is deploying Wi-Fi across a campus and needs realtime monitoring and management of a fleet of devices, and not everyone wants to be tied to having to install and set up a software controller on a device on the network, or create a cloud management account so they become dependent on the manufacturers servers. I just need one, single access point, which is plenty to cover my whole house if I put it in the right location and it has a decent signal pattern (unlike the damn cable gateway). I just want it to be standalone, with full configuration and management built into the device. I don't need it to be capable of meshing with anything.

    I know that devices like UniFi and Omada and all those can function just fine once they're configured and then never may need the controller again, but without the controller you can never do ANYTHING to the device ever again. It's just overkill and a waste of resources having to use a controller for a single home AP, and there's no good reason for it. Internet is down, or cloud server is unreachable? Guess you're not doing anything with your AP. Software controller got corrupted or computer had to be wiped? Guess you're resetting your AP and reconfiguring all your settings. Oh you want to restore the backup you made? No, we say that will work but it won't. (I set up plenty of UniFi controllers on local servers at my job, before they had the cloud option, and more than a few times something broke them. Java stopped working. An upgrade wiped the configuration. Backups would not restore.) Don't want to pay Ubiquiti or other providers for a cloud controller just to keep being able to manage a device you paid for? Fuck you, pay us.

    Netgear seems to have exited the space completely. TP-Link has a few, but their website is inconsistent about listing them (the Australia site shows different models than the main site, and includes a newer one.) Everything else is routers, which could be put into AP mode in many cases but if I'm paying for router functions that means the wireless functionality isn't going to be up to what a standalone AP would be for the same price. Or it's a bunch of no-name brands.

    These companies make me feel awful because I can't/don't keep up with all the new technology and ways of doing things which mainly benefit the companies and their profits but don't do anything better for ME and are actively worse for ME as far as I'm concerned. They leave me behind just because I don't want to follow along with their plans, and I'm left with no way to keep participating in the world.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: ikjadoon
    K

    KD5MDK

    Ars Legatus Legionis
    22,652
    Subscriptor++
  • #2
    What do you mean by "Full Functionality"? You can configure an Unifi or Omada access point with their web portals. Most of the other functionality is going to either be for roaming/interactivity you've explicitly ruled out or more aimed at router tasks. So I'm not sure what you think you're missing out on by only using the web UI. Pretty much everyone is over the $50 price point unless it's sold as a consumer router.

    The quantity of people who need a high quality AP who don't also want the one extra Ethernet port needed to allow it to optionally be a router is tiny. Why would an OEM create a separate model to support the standalone AP use case when it can be a toggle in the configuration?
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Kyuu and VividVerism
    L

    Lord Evermore

    Ars Scholae Palatinae
    1,490
    Subscriptor++
  • #3
    KD5MDK said:
    You can configure an Unifi or Omada access point with their web portals.
    Click to expand...
    UniFi, and as far as I can tell Omada and virtually everything else, don't have "web portals" that are built into the device. You have to install a controller app on a PC, server, NAS, in the cloud, whatever, and THAT has a web interface, and remotely configures the AP. You can then turn off the controller if you want, uninstall it, but you need to maintain that controller indefinitely if you ever want to change anything on the AP or look at any data on it. There is plenty of stuff that I might want to look at regarding the wireless network that requires looking at that web portal and I want it to be part of the AP itself.

    All I want is a consumer access point. I want the money that I spend to only be going to access point functionality and features, not extra Ethernet ports, not designing the OS for routing features, etc. If I buy a $50 router, by definition the manufacturer would not have spent as much money on the wireless features as they would if I bought a $50 access point. (Unless they just spent the same amount and pocketed the difference.)

    The majority of people don't need an access point to also have an extra port to turn it into a switch. (APs that have one extra port aren't "routers". They just act like a 2-port switch, and one of those ports happens to be the wireless interface.) Actual routers generally have 4 Ethernet switch ports, the WAN port, a bunch of configuration options for routing functionality that the manufacturer has to design and maintain, and additional electronics for all of that. An AP is by definition a simpler device, which should make it less expensive. Adding in a requirement for an external controller adds complexity to the overall setup, and doesn't make it cheaper since there is cost to designing the controller.
     
    W

    w00key

    Ars Praefectus
    5,907
    Subscriptor
  • #4
    You overstate the market for a simple AP. People get the first free from the provider, and if there are range issues, the last thing you want is an uncoordinated AP on the same SSID.

    They just buy a set like those Deco or Aruba InstantOn with an embedded or cloud controller coordinating client handover and neighbor reports via 802.11k/r/v. Or if you want more control, Unifi and Omada. Without it you are just asking for clients sticking to bad signal and complaints from wife and kids about slow internet.

    So yeah, you need a controller. Embedded / mesh, cloud based or on your PC, any will do. And that's what companies sell nowadays. Router AP combos are dying too, and solo AP without controller support, nope zero market for that, the cost to launch a product and stock it is way higher than expected incremental returns, and they use the same SoC and wifi chipset anyway, it's maybe $1 cheaper for 2 less ports that are already on the cheapass switch chip.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: diabol1k and sryan2k1
    O

    Oddabe19

    Ars Praefectus
    4,860
  • #8
    Don't know if it helps, but a few years ago at my previous job, we deployed a bunch of Netgear APs at all our buildings. They all had webconfig directly on the AP, easy to setup, good range, PoE, 2.4/5 band steering, several SSIDs, etc... and to be honest, despite Netgear's reputation, I don't remember having a single issue with any of them (we had 30ish deployed to 5 buildings).

    They weren't $50 though. IIRC, I think we were spending about ~$200 per AP in packs of 3 from CDW with our corporate discount. I don't think you're going to find anything with your requirements at $50, unless it's used on eBay, and I'm willing to bet there aren't enough used Wifi 6 APs on there yet to bring the price down that far.
     
    L

    Lord Evermore

    Ars Scholae Palatinae
    1,490
    Subscriptor++
  • #11
    GaitherBill said:
    $50 for a wifi 6e AP?

    I wish!
    Click to expand...
    Wi-Fi 6 would be fine as well, and TP-Link's AC1200 AP is only $40 on Amazon. Faster wireless would not be very useful for me, as I'm the only one in the house and only have my phone needing real speed most of the time. I'll have a better laptop sometime soon and saving time on downloads would only be important on occasion. I could even go with Wi-Fi 5 and be happy enough. The newer standards are largely about increasing the availability for large numbers of devices, because individual devices don't have the number of antennas needed to really increase their individual speed.

    Oddabe19 said:
    despite Netgear's reputation
    Click to expand...

    I generally like Netgear products.

    J_ said:
    Omada APs do have web config without the controller
    Click to expand...
    Well that's interesting to know, since they obviously don't mention that in any marketing. But is it just basic configuration, like set the SSID and that's it? Or can you log in and look at the client list and monitor signals, the normal stuff you expect? Does it have things like scanning the wireless environment to view the other devices and select the best channels? All this stuff that now requires you to use a controller used to be built into APs, so it's not like I'm asking for something new and strange. I just don't NEED APs that are able to communicate with each other or a controller to function.
     
    L

    Lord Evermore

    Ars Scholae Palatinae
    1,490
    Subscriptor++
  • #12
    Kyuu said:
    Yeah I'm not sure where you got the idea that Omada devices don't have a standalone web UI. They absolutely do. Using the controller is optional, not a requirement.
    Click to expand...
    Maybe because they're only listed anywhere as "Remote & App Controlled" and "Centralized Management".

    • Centralized Cloud Management: Manage the whole network locally or from the cloud via web UI or Omada app.
    Click to expand...

    I had to go into the detailed specs list to find "Web-based Management: HTTP/HTTPS" which doesn't explicitly state that it's a local UI on the device. (This is the EAP610, the lowest current model but even that's more than I need.) It's not MUCH more expensive than the standalone AX1800 model, but it's not insignificant, so I'd still be paying for a bunch of central management functions that I don't need. There are models that are lower speed than that which would still work though, so this might be what I end up with. Really the only reason I didn't want the TL-WA1201 is that it doesn't seem to be ceiling-mount, which I wanted to at least have the option to do.
     
    Last edited:
    Kyuu

    Kyuu

    Ars Tribunus Militum
    2,441
    Subscriptor
  • #13
    Lord Evermore said:
    But is it just basic configuration, like set the SSID and that's it? Or can you log in and look at the client list and monitor signals, the normal stuff you expect? Does it have things like scanning the wireless environment to view the other devices and select the best channels?
    Click to expand...
    That's a good question. There's definitely configuration beyond set the SSID, but since I generally just get the basic setup done, check the box to let it get adopted by a controller, and that's it, I haven't really looked if client lists and scanning are available in the web UI. I can disassociate mine from the controller and poke around later today.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: AltoClefScience and Lord Evermore
    L

    Lord Evermore

    Ars Scholae Palatinae
    1,490
    Subscriptor++
  • #15
    Kyuu said:
    That's a good question. There's definitely configuration beyond set the SSID, but since I generally just get the basic setup done, check the box to let it get adopted by a controller, and that's it, I haven't really looked if client lists and scanning are available in the web UI. I can disassociate mine from the controller and poke around later today.
    Click to expand...
    Certainly don't expect anyone to go out of their way to look at that for me (although reassociation of these is really easy), but thanks if you do. The EA225 looks like it would be exactly what I need if the web UI is complete, and it's a good price.
     
    L

    Lord Evermore

    Ars Scholae Palatinae
    1,490
    Subscriptor++
  • #16
    w00key said:
    Just buy one of these then? They are fine as standalone AP just don't bother complaining if roaming works kinda shite, they don't do neighbor report and fast handoffs, that requires a controller.
    Click to expand...
    They aren't wall/ceiling mountable as far as I can tell so I don't know what the radio pattern would look like, and some reviews mentioned less than great firmware and interfaces. It would almost certainly work well enough, but I was just asking about other options and why there are so few, and looking to get the best bang for the buck. Why would I just get the first one that looks like it would just be okay?
     
    Kyuu

    Kyuu

    Ars Tribunus Militum
    2,441
    Subscriptor
  • #17
    Lord Evermore said:
    Certainly don't expect anyone to go out of their way to look at that for me (although reassociation of these is really easy), but thanks if you do. The EA225 looks like it would be exactly what I need if the web UI is complete, and it's a good price.
    Click to expand...
    Like you said, readoption is really easy so no big deal. Besides, now I'm curious as to how feature complete the standalone web UI is myself.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Lord Evermore
    W

    w00key

    Ars Praefectus
    5,907
    Subscriptor
  • #18
    Lord Evermore said:
    They aren't wall/ceiling mountable as far as I can tell so I don't know what the radio pattern would look like, and some reviews mentioned less than great firmware and interfaces. It would almost certainly work well enough, but I was just asking about other options and why there are so few, and looking to get the best bang for the buck. Why would I just get the first one that looks like it would just be okay?
    Click to expand...
    Well from the replies you can deduce you're looking for the impossible. You want a Unifi / Omada with a local only firmware? That's such a weird thing to ask.

    Look at Mikrotik then. They run a full RouterOS 7 install on their dish type APs, with a fast SoC and lots of RAM. You can do anything with it like VPN server and BPG. And pretty much the only thing that matches your requirement.

    Or go app only and Aruba InstantOn has a few APs that just work. Management has the essentials but I miss logging.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: diabol1k
    L

    Lord Evermore

    Ars Scholae Palatinae
    1,490
    Subscriptor++
  • #19
    w00key said:
    You want a Unifi / Omada with a local only firmware?
    Click to expand...
    No, I want a quality access point that doesn't have a bunch of features that aren't necessary for a single unit installation, that isn't priced ridiculously high because it has a bunch of features that aren't relevant to a single unit installation, designed for a home user that only needs one unit and doesn't want to be permanently tied to having to run controller software or maintaining a subscription for a cloud controller. I want an access point with the functionality that we could get 10 years ago, simply updated to recent Wi-Fi standards, that isn't enterprise-grade and enterprise-price. I don't see why this is such an unbelievable desire.
     
    Kaiser Sosei

    Kaiser Sosei

    Ars Praefectus
    3,613
    Subscriptor++
  • #21
    Lord Evermore said:
    Certainly don't expect anyone to go out of their way to look at that for me (although reassociation of these is really easy), but thanks if you do. The EA225 looks like it would be exactly what I need if the web UI is complete, and it's a good price.
    Click to expand...
    I've had that AP for a few years and had zero issues with it. I don't even have it centrally located and still seems to have good coverage. I've used it in standalone mode and it covers my entire house, upper and lower floors as well as working outside.

    The user guide ( PDF HERE ) has some good shots of the web interface. It's clunky but works and I don't really change things very often so I have no complaints. You can get a list of clients, not sure about the channel thing.
     
    L

    Lord Evermore

    Ars Scholae Palatinae
    1,490
    Subscriptor++
  • #22
    Kaiser Sosei said:
    You can get a list of clients, not sure about the channel thing.
    Click to expand...
    Being able to monitor/scan the RF "environment" isn't a huge requirement, and may have only been a feature with higher-end models in the past anyway. It's just nice to be able to look at the environment to make adjustments, check for interference, look for rogue devices, that sort of thing. Much of it can be done with mobile apps on a phone if I really needed to. It could be useful in a densely-populated neighborhood, or an apartment building (obviously little need for an AP in a small apartment, but maybe in a large one) where neighbors are close and thin/cheap walls may not block out signals even from a good distance. Just a "nice to have". It's looking like this model will be what I get, maybe in a few weeks. It would just be really nice if there were more options, with some differentiation between brands other than how nice their cloud controller is and how much it's going to cost you to use it.
     
    K

    KD5MDK

    Ars Legatus Legionis
    22,652
    Subscriptor++
  • #23
    I think you're assuming that the extra features have a physical cost that's on the BoM, as opposed to being primarily determined by what firmware you load on the SoC. It's possible that a low feature SoC might cost $3-5 less than a higher feature SoC in the same area, but you're not paying a significant premium for it to have more software features. Your pricing appears to be set in 2010 + requires the kind of volume only a mass market device can draw, which means offering to be a router as well.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: steelghost and diabol1k
    W

    w00key

    Ars Praefectus
    5,907
    Subscriptor
  • #26
    tiredoldtech said:
    Um, I may be tossing a figurative grenade into the discussion, but how about a cheap access point or router that then uses DD-WRT or Open-WRT? All the options/functionality with a locally controlled interface (as long as the device is supported by one of those software/firmware platforms). Just saying as an option...
    Click to expand...
    The requirement for a dish style form factor (requirement was wall mountable + good omni antenna pattern) kills 80%+ of suggestions.

    That means Unifi, Omada or Aruba. Oh and that weird Mikrotik router AP thing.


    But I agree though, APs need to be placed well and that means single cable / PoE plus bracket mount, even if it leaves you not much choice. I did have an Asus hanging off a screw for a few years when it was the only one, but no thanks, not when you have 3 = central controller required anyway.
     
    C

    CatBus

    Ars Praefectus
    4,067
  • #27
    w00key said:
    The requirement for a dish style form factor (requirement was wall mountable + good omni antenna pattern) kills 80%+ of suggestions.

    That means Unifi, Omada or Aruba. Oh and that weird Mikrotik router AP thing.


    But I agree though, APs need to be placed well and that means single cable / PoE plus bracket mount, even if it leaves you not much choice. I did have an Asus hanging off a screw for a few years when it was the only one, but no thanks, not when you have 3 = central controller required anyway.
    Click to expand...
    I dunno, doesn't Netgear's WAX220 fit that for a standalone unit, plus OpenWRT compatibility if that floats their boat? Plus they've liked Netgear in the past, so maybe the factory firmware is fine. Sure, it doesn't fit the $50 bill, but that and the wall mount seem mutually exclusive, so they have to pick one or the other anyway.

    EDIT: Ah, but that would limit them to Wifi 6. No 6e or 7.
     
    Last edited:
    W

    w00key

    Ars Praefectus
    5,907
    Subscriptor
  • #28
    CatBus said:
    I dunno, doesn't Netgear's WAX220 fit that for a standalone unit, plus OpenWRT compatibility if that floats their boat? Plus they've liked Netgear in the past, so maybe the factory firmware is fine. Sure, it doesn't fit the $50 bill, but that and the wall mount seem mutually exclusive, so they have to pick one or the other anyway.
    Click to expand...
    Oh sure yeah, totally forgot they still sort of make these things. I was thinking classic desktop with stick antennas form factor when I saw Netgear.
     
    L

    Lord Evermore

    Ars Scholae Palatinae
    1,490
    Subscriptor++
  • #30
    tiredoldtech said:
    There are ironically, several older Ubiquiti access points that would fit the bill and have DD-WRT/OpenWRT support, meaning you can custom load a firmware that has all the options- yet still get the lower priced unit with the ceiling mount style for $50 used, online.
    Click to expand...
    I actually didn't even know the *WRT firmware could be loaded onto these newer access points (of any brand), since they are designed to be so dependent on controllers. I just assumed there would be limitations that would prevent it somehow and didn't even consider it further. Even the UAP AC Pro or Lite (dirt cheap) would work fine for me from a performance standpoint. Something to consider, and hardly anything lost if I don't like it and decide to get the EAP225.
     
    tiredoldtech

    tiredoldtech

    Smack-Fu Master, in training
    84
    Subscriptor++
  • #31
    See attached images from DD-WRT's site on compatible units. It appears you may need to get a DD-WRT activation license to use them. However, from past experience- just about anything on DD-WRT's site is on OpenWRT's site (with OpenWRT having more devices supported)- so yeah, there's options. It appears they definitely have a thing for supporting Ubiquiti's equipment line.
     

    Attachments

    • Screenshot 2024-04-30 075548.jpg
      Screenshot 2024-04-30 075548.jpg
      142.7 KB · Views: 4
    • Screenshot 2024-04-30 075657.jpg
      Screenshot 2024-04-30 075657.jpg
      138.9 KB · Views: 4
    • Screenshot 2024-04-30 075717.jpg
      Screenshot 2024-04-30 075717.jpg
      60.2 KB · Views: 4
    B

    BigLan

    Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius
    6,907
  • #33
    tiredoldtech said:
    See attached images from DD-WRT's site on compatible units. It appears you may need to get a DD-WRT activation license to use them. However, from past experience- just about anything on DD-WRT's site is on OpenWRT's site (with OpenWRT having more devices supported)- so yeah, there's options. It appears they definitely have a thing for supporting Ubiquiti's equipment line.
    Click to expand...
    Check exactly what supported means before you buy anything. It might be able to run the routing side of *wrt, but the wifi part might be non-functional due to proprietary drivers (thanks, Broadcom!)
     
    L

    Lord Evermore

    Ars Scholae Palatinae
    1,490
    Subscriptor++
  • #36
    BigDukeSix said:
    You can setup a Unifi AP with their mobile app in as standalone a AP. Download the app, create an account, scan the QR code on the AP and voila. I don't recommend it as downloading the PC/MAC controller to run every once in awhile for security updates is the better best option.
    Click to expand...
    Except it's still not really a "standalone AP". That's still an AP that is dependent on a controller for any management or monitoring functions. All APs can work in this way (assuming the controller isn't also supplying their power and network connection), so that users don't suddenly lose connectivity if the controller is offline for any reason.
     
    L

    Lord Evermore

    Ars Scholae Palatinae
    1,490
    Subscriptor++
  • #37
    Paladin said:
    If you can get the firmware for it, these are pretty darn awesome for under $20 shipped. https://www.ebay.com/itm/302732279793

    Super reliable and relatively easy to setup for a basic network.
    Click to expand...
    That would be great but I don't think I want to struggle to get firmware. It's been a really long time since I've had a Cisco partner account or access to one. Kinda hate them for the restrictions.
     
    B

    BigDukeSix

    Ars Scholae Palatinae
    1,271
  • #39
    Lord Evermore said:
    Except it's still not really a "standalone AP". That's still an AP that is dependent on a controller for any management or monitoring functions. All APs can work in this way (assuming the controller isn't also supplying their power and network connection), so that users don't suddenly lose connectivity if the controller is offline for any reason.
    Click to expand...
    I'm confused by your understanding of a "standalone AP", Every AP that doesn't require a dedicated device/hosted software/other app to control its ability to provide a WiFi connection is "standalone AP". I'm not sure how you intend to setup an AP without some form of software management tool. Even APs with embedded controllers still require external software (e.g. a browser) for management.
     
    W

    w00key

    Ars Praefectus
    5,907
    Subscriptor
  • #40
    For me Aruba is as good as standalone, all you need is a phone. Why does it matter that it works with a cloud controller instead of offline only?

    It adds features that are severely lacking in classic standalone APs. Just the seamless not even dropping a single ping roaming is worth it, and it proactively alerts for devices and whole sites (=internet died) going offline.
     
    You must log in or register to reply here.
    Jump to latest Follow Reply
    Jump to latest Follow Reply