Zen 3 build thread

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w00key

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  • #1
    I'm not the only one building a Zen 3 machine near release date, right? So continuing from the Zen thread.


    So what I'm aiming for is a good machine for work and play. Work is varied, from heavy PSQL to compiling, emulation and VM's / WSL2. Not going for a god box, but you can get pretty close on a decent budget of 1500 ex GPU.

    - Ryzen 7 5800X (biggest single CCX CPU), €???
    - Asus ROG Strix X570-E Gaming (2.5Gb / Bluetooth / CPU-less BIOS upgrade / decent audio / not too crazy expensive), € 259
    - Be quiet! Dark Base 700 (Reversible case for window on the right, big-ish, more RGB), €160
    - Scythe Fuma 2 (Okay performance, cheap, quiet), €50
    - Crucial Ballistix BL2K16G36C16U4B (3600C16 / 8.89ns latency, fastish, cheap) €172
    - Assorted Noctua fans to fill up the front and bottom intakes. Positive air pressure for life.
    - WS2812B / 5050 LED strip (lol maybe)
    - FQC-08929 / Windows 10 Pro DSP, €140

    - Samsung 970 Evo Plus 2TB, €333 (980 Pro is N/A in 2TB size, more expensive as well at €230/1TB).
    - Random 4-8TB disk (Veeam target)
    - Crucial MX500 2.5" 2TB, €203 (cheap-ish fast-ish storage, optional, maybe later if C:\ fills up)


    SSD: ADATA / HP EX950 vs 970 EVO Plus

    No idea why, but it scores roughly half on The Destroyer. I'll keep the Samsung, and yes, it's €100 more.


    Case: Dark Base 700 vs ???

    Hmm, my current Fractal Design R5 also has an pretty obstructed airway path, air enters the grill from the side so fan noise can get absorbed a bit by the padded, closed front panel. Same principe on the Dark Base 700, but the front grill looks more open, and it has room for 3x 140 instead of 2x 140. Googling around, I found that Gamersnexus does case temperature test on a Skylake OC / 1080 OC platform. With stock fans, so for DB 700, 1 front in, 1 rear out, and scores 50.50C @ GPU load:

    3_cm-h500-gpu-torture-all.png


    That's with fans on performance mode, level 3, 43dB. On silent L3, it scores 36dB / 52.3C. Their review of the DB700 is positive-ish: expensivish, not best on either silence or thermals, but good enough. Too bad they didn't test it with extra fans like 3x AF-14 in front; I don't get the trade off thing too - just enter a curve in the BIOS so it ramps up with CPU/GPU temperature, then it's silent until you start gaming.

    I think stuffing it full of fans: +3 Noctua AF-14 140mm PWM in the front front, and keep 2 of the stock fans for rear / top exhaust), split into 2 MB controlled channels (Noctua vs stock), should be breezy enough, I'm not a fan (hahahaha) of those physical switches for manually controlling airflow.
     
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  • #3
    SSD: ADATA / HP EX950 vs 970 EVO Plus

    No idea why, but it scores roughly half on The Destroyer. I'll keep the Samsung, and yes, it's €100 more.
    Click to expand...
    Can you not get the SK hynix Gold P31? Oh wait I see you need 2TB... also I assume you know your use case, are you actually stressing it that much that the Destroyer is your reference benchmark of the greatest relevance? Just curious as I noticed the very latest drive, the Samsung 980 Pro, is also quite a bit slower on The Destroyer than, say, the 970 Evo Plus. Makes me wonder what limitations there are in Anandtech's current SSD bench that might be affecting performance??

    The DB700 looks decent enough in GN so try it and let us know? But he does prefer the 4000D Airflow, the Phanteks P400A, and some others...

    https://www.anandtech.com/show/16012/th ... d-review/3
     
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  • #4
    I'm planning on picking up a 5900X whenever it's actually available for purchase. Assuming it will be tough to find, but I already have scars from the 3080 debacle so I'm a veteran now. Already bought an Asus B550-F Wifi6 motherboard, now I just need the CPU and 2*16GB DDR4-3600 CL16 for RAM.

    I'm keeping my Fractal Define R5 (It's fine!), 750W EVGA gold PSU, 2TB PCIe 3.0 SSD, NH-D15 HSF, and 3080 GPU. Would have kept my RAM also but it's only 2666Mhz and that won't fly.
     
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  • #5
    steelghost said:
    Corsair 4000D Airflow? It's about 100 $CURRENCY less than the DB 700, that's the difference between a 5800X and the 5900X. Or most of another kit of RAM. Or - you take my point :)

    EDIT: Not sure about the reversible case thingy though...
    Click to expand...
    Yeah reversible is - tick this, and 99% of options fall off. But I'm not going to have a window open to the wall, that's just silly :p

    ~~

    SSD: 2TB also makes a ton of competition disappear, but currently I have 200GB free out of 1T. Sure I can add a second stick later but why not just get a bigger one, also makes the SLC cache / burst capacity bigger.

    And with data I tend to stick to the big names - Samsung, Intel and Crucial. Irrational, I know, but even with daily backups I just hate disk failures so I place my bets on more users = bugs found faster. Intel / Crucial's best offerings currently are the 665p (QLC), P2 (QLC), and P5 (TLC). Storagereview: P5 is slightly slower than Evo Plus, but slightly cheaper.

    Re: usage, when I run a script that uses Postgresql, I take a look at Task Manager. Often enough, once a job is multithreaded/processed, the next bottleneck is C:\ active time at 100%. This doesn't happen every day or week, but I have had that with a 960 Pro at home and a 970 Evo Plus at the office, which are both really speedy drives in any mix of random/sequential read/writes.

    At least it runs like 10x faster than production heh. Cloud compute / storage is so stuck in 2010 in performance unless you yolo with non redundant local SSD devices.

    I pick ATSB Destroyer as my benchmark because the test suite actually matches my usage rather well, highlighted in yellow are things I use or have equivalent apps for (eg VS 2012 -> Jetbrains Toolbox, Android Studio). Only one missing is PostgreSQL/MSSQL/MySQL, but those are super rare to find in reviews.

    Y3RJLpu.png


    "The name Destroyer comes from the sheer fact that the trace contains nearly 50 million IO operations. That's enough IO operations to effectively put the drive into steady-state and give an idea of the performance in worst case multitasking scenarios. About 67% of the IOs are sequential in nature with the rest ranging from pseudo-random to fully random."

    I also like how it has 875GB or writes. That definitely puts disks into steady state performance and stresses garbage collection, which is great, I'm the guy pressing run on an unoptimized script and putting tens of TBW on a disk by accident :D


    Anandtech about the 980 Pro: "Our SSD testbed is currently producing suspiciously slow scores for The Destroyer, so those results have been omitted pending further investigation."
     
    steelghost

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  • #6
    w00key said:
    steelghost said:
    Corsair 4000D Airflow? It's about 100 $CURRENCY less than the DB 700, that's the difference between a 5800X and the 5900X. Or most of another kit of RAM. Or - you take my point :)

    EDIT: Not sure about the reversible case thingy though...
    Click to expand...
    Yeah reversible is - tick this, and 99% of options fall off. But I'm not going to have a window open to the wall, that's just silly :p

    ~~
    Click to expand...
    With the SSD it's clear you're one of the relatively few SSD buyers who actually has some idea of their workload's characteristics, and if you're seeing significant performance deltas by going with the Samsung drive, then it absolutely makes sense.

    Case wise, so much is down to personal preference that there isn't necessarily a "best answer" - I looked up the GN written review for the DB700, and this bit leapt out at me:
    The other struggle is that the Be Quiet! Dark Base 700 isn’t the best in either silence or thermals; the case can achieve high-ranking silence on the charts, but then struggles thermally (so these configurations are best left for idle or low-load use). The case can also achieve mid-pack performance -- so, average -- with high fan speeds, but then struggles with the worst noise plotted on our charts. This is a byproduct of the limited front ventilation, where we end up with high pressure against a small mesh.
    Click to expand...
    This says to me that you're going to be losing out on a certain amount of performance from your CPU and GPU because both are sensitive to thermals, and the computer won't even be quiet as a result! For me that's not an acceptable compromise, but then I don't care about being able to see the insides of my PC when I'm using it, I just want to turn it on and have it work as quickly but unobtrusively as possible. If you're putting your PC against a left-hand wall, then I suppose it comes down to how much you want a window, since for me I would rather just choose a case with good airflow, no window and have it be quiet :)
     
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  • #7
    w00key said:
    Yeah reversible is - tick this, and 99% of options fall off. But I'm not going to have a window open to the wall, that's just silly :p
    Click to expand...
    Check out the Silverstone Fortress FT04 and FT02.

    The FT02's a reversed and rotated case. While it has an opening in the back, it's not well positioned for today's heatsink mounts. I like it, but I also have several optical drives and 3.5" drives.

    The FT04 is a reversed, but non-rotated case. It's an older design (PSU garage is in the top of the case), but has a large opening behind the motherboard and comes with two Air Penetrator fans. The fans are far better than most at directing airflow in a column instead of letting it spread all over, meaning they'll get fresh air onto the GPU better than most.

    If you don't need the window, there's also the FT05, a rotated layout but not reversed. It's vertically oriented, like the FT02, but loses most of the 3.5" and 5.25" support so it's far shorter. It comes with two Air Penetrator fans, same as the FT04.
     
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  • #9
    2TB also makes a ton of competition disappear, but currently I have 200GB free out of 1T. Sure I can add a second stick later but why not just get a bigger one, also makes the SLC cache / burst capacity bigger.
    Click to expand...
    Yar, that plus your other comments-- definitely makes sense then.

    I'm really wishing the SK hynix Gold P31 came in a 2TB version....
     
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  • #10
    rodalpho said:
    Does anyone know the launch timing for Zen 3? I assume midnight pacific time on Nov 5?
    Click to expand...
    Recent launches have the order button unlocked around noon / 2pm. I don't think we'll need to spam F5 "3070-style" this time right, or am I being way too optimistic?

    steelghost said:
    Case wise, so much is down to personal preference that there isn't necessarily a "best answer" - I looked up the GN written review for the DB700, and this bit leapt out at me:
    The other struggle is that the Be Quiet! Dark Base 700 isn’t the best in either silence or thermals; the case can achieve high-ranking silence on the charts, but then struggles thermally (so these configurations are best left for idle or low-load use). The case can also achieve mid-pack performance -- so, average -- with high fan speeds, but then struggles with the worst noise plotted on our charts. This is a byproduct of the limited front ventilation, where we end up with high pressure against a small mesh.
    Click to expand...
    This says to me that you're going to be losing out on a certain amount of performance from your CPU and GPU because both are sensitive to thermals, and the computer won't even be quiet as a result! For me that's not an acceptable compromise, but then I don't care about being able to see the insides of my PC when I'm using it, I just want to turn it on and have it work as quickly but unobtrusively as possible. If you're putting your PC against a left-hand wall, then I suppose it comes down to how much you want a window, since for me I would rather just choose a case with good airflow, no window and have it be quiet :)
    Click to expand...
    I discovered that it's really hard to review cases for some reason. Sure with 2 fans total you need to turn up the RPM, but how about just installed 3 fronts and one rear? And it's an invertable case, so test temps while inverted please?

    Gamersnexus started publishing normalized stats later - installing a fixed set of Noctua AF-14's instead of the stock fans to test the case performance, not the amount and quality of stock fans, and also normalized to 36 dBA, but this review was too old and didn't have those stats :(

    But the review contains enough data for that - lets see. Use charts from their latest review, the Corsair 4000D airflow: https://www.gamersnexus.net/hwreviews/3 ... olid-panel and their older DB700 review: https://www.gamersnexus.net/hwreviews/3 ... ase-review

    corsair-4000d-noise-normalized_cpu-sort.png


    According to their DB700 review, silent level 3 is 36.3 dB, so close enough. At that fan speed, CPU temp is 60.6 and GPU 52.3. +22C ambient and that's 82 / 74C, toasty but not thottle-y.

    My goal is hitting "performance level 3" worth of airflow which scores CPU +54.6, GPU +50.5 without tuning any of the fans up to max. Doubling the amount of fans (1+1 to 3+1) should do it. The new fans are faster compared to what I have now (Fractal's are 1k), up to 1500 RPM, and all PWM controllable so I can have both silence when idle and tons of airflow when it gets hotter in the case.


    This Fractal Design Define R5, 2x 140mm 1000 RPM intake front, no rear fan, currently measures 37 dBA @ 30cm/1ft distance at full CPU load but at 50W TDP down, and idle GPU. Matching this level of silence on desktop / full CPU TDP down (BOINC number crunching) would be my end goal.

    And secondary goal, while gaming, keep it below the current 40 dB measured while running Time Spy. Where another site got 13720 / 13777 graphics, the 4790K managed 9762 / 13187 graphics, the parts can't come fast enough. Also because pressing run in Android Studio to installed on the phone took 2min31s, in the meantime I had already found and fixed some new issues so I can restart the build again. Ah man, WFH like this sucks compared to the 9900K at the office. I'm going to spam F5 on the AMD 5800X page on Friday to make sure I get one.


    Bonus chart: Time Spy with a 4790K (88W) + 3070 OC (240W power limit), peak GPU is 81C @ 62% fan speed, CPU (was in page 2) hit 83C peak @ full speed with a Scythe Mugen 2 cooler / stock PWM fan. Both the case and the ancient CPU cooler are showing their age, the Scythe Fuma 2 scores far better and I wouldn't install non PWM fans in a new build ever again.

    oKTaZKm.png



    Last random misc thing: found Rem0o's FanControl, I'm going to see if I can setup the case fans in the new build using CPU + GPU temp as source data. The board's built in controller can use mobo or CPU temp, but not GPU.
     
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  • #11
    I looked back through forum posts for Ryzen 3000-series and it looked like they started selling at midnight pacific, which is why I was asking. They reportedly sold out by early the next day. But I expect Zen 3 to be much more popular as it's stealing the lightly-threaded crown. Unless it's confirmed otherwise, I'll be F5'ing at midnight. Or 3AM, actually, for me.

    And then the next morning I'll be doing the same thing for the iPhone 12 Pro Max, which thankfully launches at 5AM PST, so much less annoying for east-coasters.
     
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  • #12
    I discovered that it's really hard to review cases for some reason. Sure with 2 fans total you need to turn up the RPM, but how about just installed 3 fronts and one rear? And it's an invertable case, so test temps while inverted please?

    Gamersnexus started publishing normalized stats later - installing a fixed set of Noctua AF-14's instead of the stock fans to test the case performance, not the amount and quality of stock fans, and also normalized to 36 dBA, but this review was too old and didn't have those stats
    Click to expand...
    GN is one of the few to attempt standardized fan testing, and even he doesn't match anywhere close to what SPCR used to do in their heyday. :( But that's the best data we have...
     
    rodalpho

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  • #15
    I got the B&H preorder on a 5900X at just before 1AM ET, it went up at midnight ET. No way to tell when they'll actually ship, so I'm still F5'ing in 26 minutes at newegg/etc.

    It's been over 8 hours so I strongly suggest you still try to buy a CPU elsewhere at 9AM. Per Newegg, stock on 5900X/5950X will be highly constrained. 5800X and lower should be easy to get.
     
    rodalpho

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  • #17
    I think you probably are yes. Like I said I got in the queue before 1AM and I'm still trying to buy one at newegg and then cancel the B&H preorder with the assumption that they'll take awhile.

    Again anyone lurking and looking for a 5800X or 5600X probably doesn't have anything to worry about. Reportedly only 5900X and 5950X are supply constrained at launch.
     
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  • #20
    Huh. So all shops went down again. Did anyone manage to get a 5800/5900X?

    I managed to pay for a 5600X, the others went from "not orderable" to "delivery est 2021". Or the product page didn't even go live. Long live 2020, every geek toy from consoles to CPU to GPU's are sold out immediately.

    But who knows if they actually have one in stock for shipping :(
     
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  • #28
    Yup so a 3100 it is. Need it to test the other parts or I would basically need to trust nothing is DOA or return everything and reorder later. 3300X seems to be all gone, 2600 is slightly more expensive, and almost €200 for 3600/3600X is a bit much for a throwaway CPU.

    Ah well, Zen 2 should be faster than Haswell refresh in any case, that way I'll survive until Q2 2021. Maybe I'll recycle it in a Plex/NAS box later with an ITX board with ECC support.


    I wonder how far a 3100 from the latest dies can be pushed on a monster cooler like the Scythe Fuma 2, heh.
     
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  • #32
    I wish mine did that, then at least I would go and try to get it somewhere else.


    Instead, it was:

    1. Holy shit how fast did the 3800X/3900X go?! (If the shop didn't go 502 gateway timeout.)
    2. Ah the 5600X is still available, ordered, paid, phew.
    3. Oh look, other shop 1 and 2 also show available, I guess the 3600X is produced in sufficient numbers.
    4. One hour later: sry no stock :(
    5. NO FRIKKEN WAY. Yeah now it shows out of stock everywhere. Great.
    6. FML so which one of the AM4, ~€100 CPU's are okay?
    7. Well the 3100 / 3300X are slow but not that slow, and pretty overclockable. Can't be worse than a 4790K. Oh 3300X is no longer available. 3100 it is.


    I was || close to say fuck it and get a 10700K build. Breathe, phew, okay no, I can wait for a few more months.
     
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  • #33
    Now staring at the too familiar queue lookup tool.

    Artikel: Processor AMD Ryzen 7 5800X
    Jouw positie: 219 van de 242


    Even Nvidia shipped more than that in the last month to them so the wait shouldn't be too bad, if they air freight pallets continuously. If not, the next container may very well be EOY / Q1 2021.


    [edit] Okay, got a BF 2033SUS date code Ryzen 3100. That's August this year, assembled in SUzhou, wafer from Saratoga, I didn't know they made this thing so recently. Hopefully this is a decent die, I want my 4.4/4.5 all clock turbo :D
     
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  • #34
    Welp, my 5600x has been invoiced and has a tracking number, so it's time to finish the build. (Pending, of course, a video card... fingers crossed).

    Assuming I don't want much fancy- right now, only planning on one M2 drive, plus carrying over a SSD for file storage, and no other peripherals of note other than case cooling- pretty much any ATX B550 or X590 should be acceptable, right? I'm eying the ASUS TUF (been happy with ASUS in the past) or an AORUS Elite. I'd like to keep the mobo price around $200USD max to keep a good chunk of budget for the GPU. And now I'm also looking for mobos that can be BIOS-updated without a CPU, as mentioned above.

    (One weird thing: the ASUS TUF Gaming on NewEgg doesn't list DDR4 3600 as a compatible RAM, but that seems... not right?)

    And on the topic of RAM, I've noticed several RAM units labeled as being "for AMD" or "for Intel"- fair to assume I'm better off going for the "for AMD" ones, but is it just an optimization thing? IE, would a RAM labeled for Intel just not work on an AM4 board?

    My other current struggle is deciding if I have the budget for going all the way to 32GB. I had originally been assuming I'd be going Intel, so I had budgeted for 32GB of 3200 CL16, but 32GB of 3600 CL16 is a pretty significant price jump. Might be in the category of "buy 16 now, and upgrade later".
     
    rodalpho

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  • #35
    I researched this recently and yes, the Asus TUF is the cheap "basic" X570 board you want, but B550 is perfectly fine too. I got an Asus B550-F Wifi6 for $180 with a coupon, but I would have gone for the TUF otherwise.

    You don't need RAM labeled for AMD, and you probably don't need 32GB either. Of course I got 32GB of 3600 CL16 RAM myself just because I wanted it. Generally, 3200Mhz CL16 will overclock to 3600 CL18 (but offer basically the same performance). It doesn't matter that much.
     
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  • #36
    32GB x 3600 C16 is pretty affordable here, I got the Crucial Ballistix BL2K16G36C16U4W set for €158, what prices are you seeing? 3800/4000 doubles the price to €300+ so NOPE for that. How much RAM you need depends hugely on the games you play, Cities Skylines with a few resource packs / DLC can hit 20GB+ RAM used, it even managed to crash once on a 16GB machine when it went out of memory + swap space, had to make the swap larger so malloc() doesn't fail...

    Some PC games with mods / DLCs are very memory hungry.


    I also ordered an Asus board, paid €50 extra over the TUF for 2.5Gb ethernet, wifi and bluetooth. Both should be fine.


    Headline on the biggest .nl tech news site:

    Duizend AMD Ryzen 5000-processors binnen enkele minuten uitverkocht in Benelux
    Click to expand...
    Yeah so stock only lasted few minutes lol, even the 3070 lasted longer. But shops seem to expect significant stock in the next few weeks so it shouldn't be as bad as the Nvidia situation.
     
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    w00key

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  • #38
    Strategically spamming F5 / subscribing to stock alerts is still possible. Or just give up and pre-order at a shop where you just give them money and they ship out FIFO. I'm the 211th for the 5800X so that's not too bad. The 5600X had a way larger supply and is still in stock in certain countries, but the 5900/5950X is a paper launch so far.

    But for the Xbox / PS5, yes, that's going to be crazy. Not a single shop accepted pre-orders for long, some just gave up and said, whoever gets it into cart and pays wins on launch day. I have a reminder set to spam F5 on Monday 12:00 CET for the Xbox.
     
    jarablue

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  • #39
    "Strategically spamming F5 / subscribing to stock alerts is still possible."

    Even doing that, chances of you making it to checkout is slim. And that is for people who stay home on a PC all day long. I work and try to spend as much time outside in the real world as possible. And then try to enjoy my PC when my wife or family isn't needing help.

    Just saying, it's hard for normal Joes to buy anything gaming related right now. Pretty much everyone is at home playing games nonstop during the virus.

    Good luck getting your stuff. Hope you do :)
     
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