Perpetual Bargain Budget Box.

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Made in Hurry

Made in Hurry

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  • #1
    Big edit here, so the current rules are as following:

    1. Maximum $500/€500 or equivalent in your currency, including monitor if possible, excluding keyboard, mouse and speakers.
    2. It must be a system you could recommend for someone on a very tight budget.
    3. New components or prebuilds, where possible. Refurb/open-box is ok.
    4. AliExpress, Wish etc also ok. Again, something you could recommend.

    GPOS and light gaming at least, but do suggest a minimum requirement if you have one.
     
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    Made in Hurry

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  • #3
    continuum said:
    Quick question that may or may not help: did you have a certain baseline or expectation for memory and storage capacity, or are you purely application definited here?
    Click to expand...
    Maybe that is something we should agree on in this thread? We need a baseline for sure what this system should be able to do.

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    I made a suggestion here that will set you back $240.61 with the current conversion rate. Quick and dirty as an example. The case has an included 500W PSU, but no external GPU. Maybe that should be a requirement?
     
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  • #5
    grstanford said:
    I don't do systems that low budget, you are better off looking at cheap laptops or office machines, maybe a barebones NUC at that sort of price level. Unless it is a high quality case (and hence unlikely to be used in this sort of system) I wouldn't trust any inbuilt PSU as far as I could kick it.
    Click to expand...
    Well, you can choose to contribute with what you think would be the lowest acceptable machine then you would consider using as a spare, or recommend to a family or kid that does not have much or almost any money to spend. We still do not have a baseline that we need to meet yet though. The components need to be NEW though, no old Dell's and such from craigslist or similar.
    And as for inbuilt PSU's, i have had only one going bad on me in the last few decades, but they never powered any power-hungry systems either. We are not going to power a 4090 with one, and no one would recommend such a PSU for such a system either, that is not the point of this thread.
     
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  • #7
    Made in Hurry said:
    made a suggestion here that will set you back $240.61 with the current conversion rate. Quick and dirty as an example. The case has an included 500W PSU, but no external GPU. Maybe that should be a requirement?
    Click to expand...
    I think it’s really all how you want to define it, not so much the rest of us.

    Back many years ago when I wrote the System Guides, the Budget Box ($800 with monitor, mouse, keyboard, speakers) had a discrete GPU, the Bargain Budget Box ($500 with monitor, mouse, keyboard, speakers) relied on the iGPU and did not have a discrete GPU.

    At $240 you’re getting even lower in budget than we have traditionally addressed in the System Guides, which is definitely an area of potential interest, I’d say you get to define it and then we can give you feedback on your ideas.
     
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    malor

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  • #8
    In that budget range, I'd just buy a prebuilt NUC-alike. I wouldn't bother with a component build.

    With inflation, probably about the cheapest box I'd want to build from components in 2024 would end up being maybe $600. Probably something like an AMD 5600 ($150), B550 motherboard ($110), 16G of RAM ($50), refurb GPU (maybe a 1060 at $129 I saw in another thread), case, power supply. ($150ish).

    If the refurb GPU is unacceptable, it would cost more.
     
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  • #9
    continuum said:
    I think it’s really all how you want to define it, not so much the rest of us.

    Back many years ago when I wrote the System Guides, the Budget Box ($800 with monitor, mouse, keyboard, speakers) had a discrete GPU, the Bargain Budget Box ($500 with monitor, mouse, keyboard, speakers) relied on the iGPU and did not have a discrete GPU.

    At $240 you’re getting even lower in budget than we have traditionally addressed in the System Guides, which is definitely an area of potential interest, I’d say you get to define it and then we can give you feedback on your ideas.
    Click to expand...
    My $240 system is probably not representative at all for what someone would buy although it does also pique my interest in how usable it would be so i might pull the trigger on something like this in the future and do a review here, so instead i will introduce some suggested requirements then in such case, but please add or suggest something else which would interesting for the target market. I will edit the title to reflect the Bargain Budget Box which is basically what this thread is perpetually meant to be.


    1. Maximum $500/€500 or equivalent in your currency, including monitor, excluding keyboard, mouse and speakers.
    2. It must be a system you could recommend for someone on a very tight budget.
    3. New components or prebuilds, where possible. Refurb/open-box is ok.
    4. AliExpress, Wish etc also ok. Again, something you could recommend.

    Edited OP to reflect the new suggestions.
     
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  • #12
    Off-lease devices will be the order of the day if gaming's not a requirement. Comes with a Windows license, can usually be had for $150-$350, which leaves plenty of room for a monitor. Won't be able to game well, if at all.

    If you're ok with inexpensive Windows licenses, or MAS, then the next step up is something from a NUC-like maker, like Beelink. I just picked up a 5800U/32GB/1TB for $299 (price is now back up to $399). Can't add a dGPU, but has a passable integrated option.

    If you want a full system, sure, you can do it, but you're getting a RX 580 2048SP:

    PCPartPicker Part List

    CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 5500 3.6 GHz 6-Core Processor ($99.00 @ B&H)
    Motherboard: MSI A520M-A PRO Micro ATX AM4 Motherboard ($69.99 @ B&H)
    Memory: G.Skill Ripjaws V 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-3200 CL16 Memory ($30.99 @ Amazon)
    Storage: TEAMGROUP MP33 512 GB M.2-2280 PCIe 3.0 X4 NVME Solid State Drive ($35.99 @ Amazon)
    Case: CiT Dark Star ATX Mid Tower Case ($36.11 @ Amazon)
    Power Supply: Asus TUF Gaming B 450 W 80+ Bronze Certified ATX Power Supply ($47.99 @ Newegg)
    Monitor: ASRock CL25FF 24.5" 1920 x 1080 100 Hz Monitor ($75.98 @ Newegg)
    Custom: Peladn RX 580 2048SP ($88.00)
    Total: $484.05
    Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
    Generated by PCPartPicker 2024-01-14 13:02 EST-0500
     
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  • #13
    IceStorm said:
    Off-lease devices will be the order of the day if gaming's not a requirement. Comes with a Windows license, can usually be had for $150-$350, which leaves plenty of room for a monitor. Won't be able to game well, if at all.

    If you're ok with inexpensive Windows licenses, or MAS, then the next step up is something from a NUC-like maker, like Beelink. I just picked up a 5800U/32GB/1TB for $299 (price is now back up to $399). Can't add a dGPU, but has a passable integrated option.

    If you want a full system, sure, you can do it, but you're getting a RX 580 2048SP:

    PCPartPicker Part List

    CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 5500 3.6 GHz 6-Core Processor ($99.00 @ B&H)
    Motherboard: MSI A520M-A PRO Micro ATX AM4 Motherboard ($69.99 @ B&H)
    Memory: G.Skill Ripjaws V 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-3200 CL16 Memory ($30.99 @ Amazon)
    Storage: TEAMGROUP MP33 512 GB M.2-2280 PCIe 3.0 X4 NVME Solid State Drive ($35.99 @ Amazon)
    Case: CiT Dark Star ATX Mid Tower Case ($36.11 @ Amazon)
    Power Supply: Asus TUF Gaming B 450 W 80+ Bronze Certified ATX Power Supply ($47.99 @ Newegg)
    Monitor: ASRock CL25FF 24.5" 1920 x 1080 100 Hz Monitor ($75.98 @ Newegg)
    Custom: Peladn RX 580 2048SP ($88.00)
    Total: $484.05
    Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
    Generated by PCPartPicker 2024-01-14 13:02 EST-0500
    Click to expand...
    Just for my understanding - why not a 5600G or something, $127 at Amazon right now? Yes graphics performance will be worse than even that 580, but if we said gaming isn’t a requirement, who cares? The 5600G at least has reasonably modern video decoding hardware (It’s missing AV1 but it has the rest) and you save a few dollars. In fact, if you don’t want to save that money, you can just barely squeeze in the 8-core 5700G.

    I like the balance you struck otherwise, though.
     
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  • #16
    mpat said:
    How does that keep options open? The PCIe slot is still there. It is only PCIe 3.0, but it would have to be a pretty beefy GPU to have a problem with x16 3.0.
    Click to expand...
    It's only PCIe3 x8 on the 5600G. The other 8 lanes are permanently devoted to driving the relatively crappy Vega graphics. And then the Southbridge is forced into PCIe3 mode, too. That, however, doesn't matter if it's a B550 board, since PCIe3 is all it does, anyway.

    The 5-series APUs just aren't that good. Vega chips rather mess up the CPU side, while being too strong for desktop users. Simultaneously, they're too weak for gamers, as even a weak discrete card will be much better. For almost everyone, it's kinda wasted silicon, either too much, or too little. It's just right for a very small population.

    The 7-series chips all have weak onboard graphics, which IMO is much better. They're good for desktop users, and don't do any damage to the CPU side. People wanting to do much gaming would buy a discrete card anyway, so why waste silicon on 3D acceleration that's not going to be used much? And then the actual APUs in that lineup are more aimed at laptops, and are reasonably good 1080p-class accelerators. It's a much better overall design, IMO. The RDNA3 graphic chips do lose some CPU power, but they're offering enough GPU power to make that trade worth it for people with lower budgets.

    But that stuff won't be ready for serious budget boxes for quite awhile yet.

    All that said, the tradeoffs in the 5600G might be worth it for this specific use case, since the idea is to buy something super cheap that's still useful. I think the $58 is well worth it, as you'd get a much stronger system, but $58 is quite a bit when you're trying to build something bottom-rung.
     
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  • #17
    If a discrete GPU is a must (new or used; or will be added later) build a small tower (16GB Ram, 512GB M2 SSD, basic mobo, use stock cooler, get a $40 case and brand PSU - that one is often overlooked). Ryzen iGPU might work for most light-gaming purposes, otherwise get a Intel prev. gen entry-level CPU and a cheap GPU like a new ARC or used 1060GTX or else (2024 will offer better value buys than last year.

    Otherwise just get a NUC/small form-factor PC (Ryzen 7 5700U/Ryzen 5 5600U) and be done with it - there are many nice choices out now. Also might want to consider a Steam Deck with keyboard/monitor setup, if gaming is the main use case. There are now enough options in the $500-600 range for all of the above.

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  • #18
    malor said:
    It's only PCIe3 x8 on the 5600G. The other 8 lanes are permanently devoted to driving the relatively crappy Vega graphics. And then the Southbridge is forced into PCIe3 mode, too. That, however, doesn't matter if it's a B550 board, since PCIe3 is all it does, anyway.
    Click to expand...

    No, it is 16 lanes to the GPU, 4 to storage and 4 to the chipset:

    www.anandtech.com

    The AMD Ryzen 7 5700G, Ryzen 5 5600G, and Ryzen 3 5300G Review

    www.anandtech.com www.anandtech.com

    The only thing you really lose compared to the desktop models is the smaller LLC, but in this case, the higher clocks (5600G compared to 5500) more than makes up for it.

    malor said:
    The 5-series APUs just aren't that good. Vega chips rather mess up the CPU side, while being too strong for desktop users. Simultaneously, they're too weak for gamers, as even a weak discrete card will be much better. For almost everyone, it's kinda wasted silicon, either too much, or too little. It's just right for a very small population.
    Click to expand...
    They're left-over laptop chips. AMD didn't design them to be desktop chips, they just use the leftovers. The problem with them is that the timing was wrong so they didn't get the RDNA2 graphics in (RDNA1 would not have made a difference) but that happens when you run as fast as AMD did in those years.
     
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  • #19
    The Radeon Vega based APUs will never get recognition by gamers, but with dual channel DDR4 they can catch a GTX 1030 (the "good" one with GDDR5, not the crappy models with slower DDR4 VRAM). So not great, but definitely workable at 720p. Certainly not in "3D decelerator" territory.

    Again, not great, but as a stopgap the top end Vega10/11 (Ryzen 2000/3000) or Vega8 (Ryzen 4000/5000) are workable. I still have a Ryzen 2200G in a mini-ITX board and it's not nearly bad enough yet to throw out. Doesn't get much use, though, admittedly.
     
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  • #20
    For those with knowledge about Iris Xe and such, is Intel completely unusable for even light gaming here?

    I had a 2200G before as well which i think performed much better than i anticipated. I did overclocked both the CPU and the graphics on it and paired it with 3600Mhz memory, and i played through RDR2 on it even hovering just over 30fps on average. Cannot say there was a lot of stutter either.

    I have some experience with the 5600G as well which feels fast, but it did not feel much faster than the 2200G in gaming with the APU. For indie games and such it will work great in my experience, but that also depends on the game.
    How about the 4xxxG - they are almost free these days? Does anyone have any experience with them?

    I will have fond memories of the 2200G really, the little engine that could. (for far longer than anticipated)
     
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  • #21
    Intel iGPUs only caught up to AMD with Meteor Lake / Core Ultra. There were one or two earlier special Intel models that fared better, but they were never widely available or had weaknesses on the CPU side.

    The 5600G should be barely faster than the 2200G. Nominally it's 1.7 TFLOPS vs 1.2 TFLOPS in favour of the newer chip, but both are heavily constrained by bandwidth from main memory.
     
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  • #22
    mpat said:
    Just for my understanding - why not a 5600G or something, $127 at Amazon right now?
    Click to expand...
    'cause it goes over the hard ceiling of $500, especially if you opt to pay for a cheap windows license (around $15). Even now, the prices have shifted from what I posted.

    You're paying 28% more for very little benefit, especially since an overclocked 8GB RX 570 wearing a 580's jacket beats the snot out of it.

    At this price point, it's either go with an iGPU, or go with a CPU and dGPU. It's like the 12100 ($98.88) vs the 12100F ($114.90) - you're paying 16% more for nothing if you don't use it. That's a cheap windows license. That's the cost of moving from a 500GB SSD to a 1TB SSD. That's the cost of a USB WiFi adapter.
     
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  • #23
    IceStorm said:
    'cause it goes over the hard ceiling of $500, especially if you opt to pay for a cheap windows license (around $15). Even now, the prices have shifted from what I posted.

    You're paying 28% more for very little benefit, especially since an overclocked 8GB RX 570 wearing a 580's jacket beats the snot out of it.

    At this price point, it's either go with an iGPU, or go with a CPU and dGPU. It's like the 12100 ($98.88) vs the 12100F ($114.90) - you're paying 16% more for nothing if you don't use it. That's a cheap windows license. That's the cost of moving from a 500GB SSD to a 1TB SSD. That's the cost of a USB WiFi adapter.
    Click to expand...
    I meant replacing the RX 580 and the 5500 with a 5600G. It saves $60. Alternatively, switch to a 5700G and get an 8-core for the same money. In either case you keep the PCIe slot for a future discrete GPU upgrade if you want one.
     
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  • #24
    There are other, less expensive options if a dGPU isn't needed, that's why I listed them earlier. You get more, for less, with the NUC-like devices.

    I don't see much value in building a dGPU-less box today at a $500 budget, unless you're going to put more in it than a NUC can handle (more RAM or more storage). Spending $500 and not getting a dGPU seems like a waste in the current market.
     
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  • #25
    What are your opinions on for example mini-pc's from AliExpress and such, or X99 or similar platforms that seems to be popular with old Xeons in them if you are trying to get the most performance for as little as possible? Any brand names that should be in the back of the head in such case? I saw 2016 Xeons with motherboard and RAM for as little as $70.

    dGPUs are still horrendously expensive on my side of the pond, even old GT730's are still close to $100 etc., which is going to be the toughest nut to crack. Desktops from old company fleets are also not an option here unless you have an inside source somewhere, prices are approaching new systems.
     
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  • #28
    I mean, this does the trick (just about, I am a wee bit over budget):

    PCPartPicker Part List

    CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 5600G 3.9 GHz 6-Core Processor (£120.95 @ AWD-IT)
    Motherboard: Asus Prime B450M-A II Micro ATX AM4 Motherboard (£69.95 @ AWD-IT)
    Memory: Corsair Vengeance LPX 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-3200 CL16 Memory (£39.97 @ Ebuyer)
    Storage: Solidigm P41 Plus 500 GB M.2-2280 PCIe 4.0 X4 NVME Solid State Drive (£29.66 @ MoreCoCo)
    Case: Deepcool MATREXX 30 MicroATX Mini Tower Case (£32.99 @ AWD-IT)
    Power Supply: be quiet! System Power 10 450 W 80+ Bronze Certified ATX Power Supply (£46.54 @ NeoComputers)
    Operating System: Microsoft Windows 11 Home Retail - Download 64-bit (£109.99 @ MoreCoCo)
    Monitor: AOC 24B2XH 23.8" 1920 x 1080 75 Hz Monitor (£76.21 @ Clove Technology)
    Total: £526.26
    Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
    Generated by PCPartPicker 2024-01-17 10:58 GMT+0000
    (Bear in mind that this is UK pricing so everything quoted above includes 20% VAT)

    I could get under budget by going down to 8GB RAM / single channel, cheaping out on the SSD, etc. Or you could abandon the proper Windows license and go for one of the grey market options...

    But it would be better value to put a 5600 in it and then supplement with a used dGPU (or an ex-mining card as suggested above) - at least if you had any ambitions to game on it.

    If you just want an office machine, an ex-lease micro PC from Lenovo or HP with a 8th or 9th gen six core in it is going to be ~half the money, probably already comes with a Windows license if that's what you need, and is probably about 1/6 the volume. It's what I would do if I needed something in this category.
     
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  • #30
    Anonymous Chicken said:
    My small contribution.

    When it comes to basic monitors (i.e. full HD 75hz) I would certainly buy one used. (Do they realistically ever fail?) Around here anyway, there is a company selling used office equipment that has it covered with multiple options.
    Click to expand...
    Just one minor warning about used displays: check what the backlight is made of. Older models have fluorescent tube backlights, and those DO fail eventually. It can take a very long time, so an older used display can very well fail soon after you buy it. More recent ones have LED backlights and a diffuser, so even if a single LED fails, you won’t notice.
     
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  • #31
    mpat said:
    Just one minor warning about used displays: check what the backlight is made of. Older models have fluorescent tube backlights, and those DO fail eventually. It can take a very long time, so an older used display can very well fail soon after you buy it. More recent ones have LED backlights and a diffuser, so even if a single LED fails, you won’t notice.
    Click to expand...
    Additionally, tube backlights use significantly more power/release significantly more heat. If buying 2nd hand, it is worth spending a small premium for LED lit units.
     
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  • #33
    In the UK, the XFX RX 580 (a brand new 8GB card, not a mining remanufacture) is $133 GBP. Using that, just over 500 GBP:

    PCPartPicker Part List

    CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 5500 3.6 GHz 6-Core Processor (£87.00 @ Amazon UK)
    Motherboard: MSI A520M-A PRO Micro ATX AM4 Motherboard (£52.62 @ CCL Computers)
    Memory: Silicon Power GAMING 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-3200 CL16 Memory (£34.99 @ Amazon UK)
    Storage: TEAMGROUP MP33 512 GB M.2-2280 PCIe 3.0 X4 NVME Solid State Drive (£39.60 @ NeoComputers)
    Video Card: XFX GTR XXX Radeon RX 580 8 GB Video Card (£133.03 @ Amazon UK)
    Case: Aerocool CS-1103 ATX Mid Tower Case (£24.98 @ Scan.co.uk)
    Power Supply: be quiet! System Power 10 450 W 80+ Bronze Certified ATX Power Supply (£46.54 @ NeoComputers)
    Monitor: Asus VA24EHF 23.8" 1920 x 1080 100 Hz Monitor (£94.00 @ Amazon UK)
    Total: £512.76
    Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
    Generated by PCPartPicker 2024-01-17 15:13 GMT+0000

    I would be wary of using QLC drive like the Solidigm P41 Plus at the ~500GB capacity point. I really wouldn't go near them until the 2TB capacity point. QLC performance drops off a cliff once you've run out the free space as it has to then go back and compress the data. Writing 4bits/cell drops performance well below HDD sustained write performance. That happens very quickly on 500GB drives. You're better off with TLC that uses HBM if TLC with DRAM cache isn't an option.
     
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  • #34
    I suspect for the class of machine we're talking about it wouldn't actually matter that much, since outside of game installs on a fast connection you're unlikely to be doing many large and sustained writes, but certainly worth steering clear of given that there are decent alternatives at similar cost.

    At this end of the market a retail Windows licence is a huge chunk of the budget, which I did include in my build, to the detriment of other components. For office / web use I'd probably be exploring Linux Mint or Pop!OS on a better specced h/w platform.
     
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  • #35
    With regards to windows licenses ... if the RX 580 implies a lighter gaming load, i.e. older titles, then modern Linux with up to date Proton can handle a good percentage of games. Drivers for the RX 580 are very mature under Linux, as well. (End of not-really-an-advertizement. Beggars can't be chosers at the low end of budgets.)
     
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  • #36
    w00key said:
    $100 with new components is in the shitty single board computer range, you are better off getting a 5yo ex-lease Optiplex.

    $300 is decent for a new build. Doesn't come with game-capable GPU though.
    Click to expand...
    Shoot dell refurbished the Financial Division that deals with off lease stuff the "70" Series with the last two numbers being 70 are all coming back from office leases that never were installed. The Grade A stuff is so clean i can tell they've never been turned on other then the refurbishment quality check. (Late 2023/Early 2024 time reference) Of course not all of this is like it.

    Of course none of these were intended for gaming or high powered GPU's.
     
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  • #37
    Anonymous Chicken said:
    My small contribution.

    When it comes to basic monitors (i.e. full HD 75hz) I would certainly buy one used. (Do they realistically ever fail?) Around here anyway, there is a company selling used office equipment that has it covered with multiple options.
    Click to expand...
    I had two monitors going bad on me in the last year. One Samsung gamer monitor i bought used from a thrift shop, and last week an LG Ultra 4K screen that came from the same place. Both were some years old, and they worked until they did not. Both came up garbled with rainbow colors on them one day, but they were $20 and $30 respectively so i could not complain.

    I really wish i had access to your used fleets or refurbished office computers over here, but that is a non-starter over here with an OptiPlex with an 8th gen Intel is $450 (Conversion rate USD/NOK 1/10

    Dell OptiPlex 7060 SFF i5, 8GB RAM, 256GB SSD - Furbie

    Passer inn overalt Allsidig og fleksibel: OptiPlex 7060 har en fleksibel, kompakt design som passer på arbeidsplassen, slik at du får mest mulig ut av m...
    www.furbie.no www.furbie.no

    I am starting to look more though for parts or deals, and bought a SATA drive yesterday, $33 for a 4TB Samsung 870 Evo brand new which should be here in a few weeks. Linky to the drive Seems i might have to put together something before the end of February.
     
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  • #38
    Made in Hurry said:
    I really wish i had access to your used fleets or refurbished office computers over here
    Click to expand...
    They used to have office computers. My i5-4570 box came from them, it was a strangely good deal. But it seems the office machines dried up. Helps to be in the Olso area, to avoid shipping costs. Screens, they have: https://www.movement.as/elektronikk/pc-skjermer-1290?sort=price_asc

    I sometimes check the "outlet" gamer boxes on elkjøp.no, can be good prices. Sometimes https://www.rebuildit.no/ has interesting things pass through. (I bet thats just a solo operation.) I've never looked at furbie.no, love companies in that line of business. You're right though, they're not exactly giving that Dell machine away. Warranty, thats something.
     
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  • #39
    I completely forgot about Movement, i even used to work with them back in the day. Bookmarked it along with your other links. I do look at Elkjøp (Dixons Carphone in England) sometimes, it is how i scored this Vivobook S 12500H laptop for half the normal price about a week ago, old stock being cleared out ($425 while Celeron based machines often go for the same or more, but sometimes they make some huge mistakes on pricing when someone returns something as this is still priced at $900 new.

    I will see what i come up with at the end of February.

    Very much appreciated!
     
    A

    Anonymous Chicken

    Ars Scholae Palatinae
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  • #40
    Made in Hurry said:
    I do look at Elkjøp (Dixons Carphone in England) sometimes, it is how i scored this Vivobook S 12500H laptop for half the normal price about a week ago
    Click to expand...
    Oh, thats interesting they are HQ'ed in England. They sell those pcspecialist.co.uk boxes ... might be a connection there.

    I scored a IdeaPad Gaming from their outlet stock in the fall, it was a 16" 1920x1200 model with i5-12450H RTX3060, absolutely superior to anything else up to double the price. Then even if you paid that doubled price, you had twice as many pixels to push, so you needed an even beefier GPU.
     
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