Asus Fan Xpert is Driving me Crazy

Utildayael · Sep 23, 2023

So I built out a new box some months ago with the help of the fine Ars folks and it's been running great until recently.. for some reason the fans seem to randomly ramp up high for a few seconds then back to its normal mostly-quiet self.

Full air cooled set up. Fractal Torrent w/ stock fans [2x180 front, 3x120 bottom]. Asus Gefoce 4090 [3 fans]. i9 13900K. Noctua NH-D15 tower cooler w/ fan. Case fans are on the Fractal fan header that came with the case so my two fan sources are CPU and Chassis 4 as it worked out. While the rig generates a good amount of heat, it's been good since I built it a few months ago. The 4090 amazingly seems to do a pretty good job of cooling itself as that giant brick is 99% heatsink. Some games the fans dont even spin up on it as the case fans and giant card sink handle the load. Now if I throw in Starfield or worse, Cyberpunk w/ RT it'll do some work but even then its fairly constant as its getting a solid workout. No ramping like its been doing.

CPU sits in the 30-40C bucket all day long as does the 4090. The ramps seem to happen when say... I load into a new area in Starfield. FWOOOSH. It goes hard for about 15 seconds then drops back to normal. It's like a weird spike on the curve that immediately fixes itself.

I've messed around with Fan Xpert. Tried the auto tune. Tried AI cooling. Tried the various pre-configured curves. Set the fan spin up to smooth vs immediate. Current curve/set up below.

It's weird as it was pretty much perfect initially and I think after letting Armoury Crate update things recently it started doing this.

Thoughts?

EDIT: added ingame overlay shot for ref too... its weird.. 0 or 1000 which is making me wonder if its video card specifically..

Deathmonkey · Sep 23, 2023

Perhaps not a solution but definitely commiseration.

I've had the same problem across two AMD systems, one with an Asrock motherboard and the other MSI, with the only common part being my old RX570.

I fiddled with system fan curves until I was blue in the face but it still does short bursts of its jet engine impression. I want to say is the problem with the video card and some bug in its "zero RPM" fan mode but can't pinpoint it because the problem is so intermittent.

Utildayael · Sep 23, 2023

Deathmonkey said:
Perhaps not a solution but definitely commiseration.

I've had the same problem across two AMD systems, one with an Asrock motherboard and the other MSI, with the only common part being my old RX570.

I fiddled with system fan curves until I was blue in the face but it still does short bursts of its jet engine impression. I want to say is the problem with the video card and some bug in its "zero RPM" fan mode but can't pinpoint it because the problem is so intermittent.

Ya I've sat with the nvidia overlay up while playing and noticed the fans on GPU seem to run at 0 RPM or 1000 RPM and there is no middle ground. I'm not even sure how/if you can adjust that.

fellow human · Sep 23, 2023

Asus software is terrible. You want Fan Control.

steelghost · Sep 24, 2023

That or just use the UEFI curves, which tend to me more consistent / better behaved, at least in my limited experience (source, trying to avoid exactly what you're describing on an 8700k/Z370 Prime board).

Utildayael · Sep 24, 2023

steelghost said:
That or just use the UEFI curves, which tend to me more consistent / better behaved, at least in my limited experience (source, trying to avoid exactly what you're describing on an 8700k/Z370 Prime board).

UEFI curves? Is that like, just turn off Fan Xpert and let system handle it?

I should disclaimer I'm the village idiot with advanced PC tuning like fan curves and such. Most of my life revolves around datacenter equipment which only comes in loud and louder varieties. I think I've always just been mostly lucky on builds to keep noise reasonably low by putting in decent fans, etc.

fellow human · Sep 24, 2023

The problem with almost all fan controllers is they only use one sensor as a source. Your CPU gets hotter, your CPU fan goes faster. Your GPU gets hotter, your GPU fan goes faster. That's fine, but what about your case fans? You might run a CPU-heavy workload while your GPU sits idle, or play a game where your GPU is pinned and your CPU is mostly idle. In either case you want your case fans spun up, so which sensor do you tie them to?

With Fan Control you can combine sensors with a function and then use the output of that as your source. So for example you could take the max of CPU or GPU temp and base a curve on that, so your fans will come up no matter which processor is busy.

I probably sound like a salesman for it but no, just a... fan

Utildayael · Sep 24, 2023

Graham J said:
The problem with almost all fan controllers is they only use one sensor as a source.

Ya I figured that might be an issue as well given the fan controller is considered the one control point for all 5 case fans as well vs being able to adjust say.. bottom intake vs front. I could split connections up of course in some form if that is the case.

It honestly seems to be the damn GPU the more I look at it both watching fan speeds in Fan Xpert as well as Fan Control. It seems to be like a weird flip between the "zero rpm" mode where it sits nice and quiet when the GPU doesnt need it [which is great!] and then GO TO 1000 NOW!!! mode. Oddly It seems to be 0 or 1000 and nothing between.

I did try to muck with the GPU fan curve but honestly I dont know what I'm doing so it just ended up spinning the fans faster. But consistent? So that was something. I also messed around with Asus GPUTweak.

Lot of fan options... not a big "fan" of any of them. Pun intended.

Edit: Fan curves in GPUTweak. It clearly is not following these as... if I am reading the curve right, fan should not even kick on til GPU hits 55C no? It's flaring on off when its well below that.

Kaiser Sosei · Sep 24, 2023

Utildayael said:
UEFI curves? Is that like, just turn off Fan Xpert and let system handle it?

I should disclaimer I'm the village idiot with advanced PC tuning like fan curves and such. Most of my life revolves around datacenter equipment which only comes in loud and louder varieties. I think I've always just been mostly lucky on builds to keep noise reasonably low by putting in decent fans, etc.

Asus boards have a fan controller in the BIOS/UEFI, "Q-Fan". It works similarly to Fan Xpert. That way you don't have to install the AiSuite or Fan Xpert. That's what I normally use and haven't had any issues. I never install the Armoury crate or the other Asus programs.

malor · Sep 24, 2023

Q-fan lets you tie specific fan outputs to specific sensors, and IIRC can either be set to several presets (turbo, standard, and silent?) and also has the ability to use a custom three-stage ramp that you define based on temps. But it doesn't do things like combine or average sensors.

I usually tie the AIO fans and pump to the CPU temp, and the case fans to the motherboard temp. I set the pump to max all the time, and all the fans to Silent mode. That's been enough for me to keep my computers quiet, and they stay within reasonable temp ranges.

fellow human · Sep 24, 2023

I used Q-fan for the longest time, it's alright. I just hated having to reboot to change anything, which precludes tweaking while running your workload. I mostly run MSFS so it was great being able to play with curves while it's running and get the fans just high enough to maintain target temps.

There's enough jet sounds in MSFS, I don't need one sitting next to me

fellow human · Sep 24, 2023

Here's my Fan Control setup. Along the bottom are are modules that do math on sensors - averaging and max in my case. Then in the middle you have curves that take those readings that output a percentage. And at the top there's the actual fan outputs where you assign which curve each one gets.

As you can see my AIO pump and fan ramp with CPU alone but the back exhaust and bottom intake fans ramp with whatever the highest temp is, though at different rates. Love it.

Utildayael · Sep 24, 2023

Uh ya.. Fan Control certainly takes the cake for crazy customization levels. Very nice!

I did flip to QFan and disabled Fan Xpert this afternoon as a test and it's behaving nicely again. So far.

Obsti · Sep 25, 2023

If you have to choose between using Asus GPU Tweak in whatever form (including Fan Xpert/AI Suite) and taking a bullet to the head, just take the bullet. Less pain, more efficient. The bullet will also likely be more up-to-date than the archaic junk Asus is pushing.

Afterburner handles GPUs fine and doesn't feel as clunky as GPU Tweak (Did Asus ever fix the horrible delays after boot? The slow interface? Curves resetting? System crashes from starting it?) but I am glad to see Fan Control already paraded here. It rocks.

Note that some GPU fans are allergic to being turned off even on low loads and react in annoying ways when started. Running them at the lowest and least audible RPM setting possible even on idle often solves a lot of disturbances, especially in spiky workloads.

steelghost · Sep 25, 2023

Utildayael said:
Uh ya.. Fan Control certainly takes the cake for crazy customization levels. Very nice!

I did flip to QFan and disabled Fan Xpert this afternoon as a test and it's behaving nicely again. So far.

(emphasis mine)

This is what I found, which is that if you set up your fan curves in the UEFI via the "Q-Fan" interface you get more stable and well behaved fan behaviour than if you try to do it via Fan Xpert - at least as far as motherboard based fan curves go.

For GPUs, I tend to just leave air cooled ones to their own devices and focus on keeping the air inside the case as cool as I can. If your board has a thermal probe header you can put one eg next to the exhaust fan, and monitor the temps of the air going out, then your case fan curves can respond to that, and because the air inside the case won't change temperature suddenly, neither will your fans' speed.

fellow human · Sep 25, 2023

Yeah a probe could be a solution to only having one source. I tried using various motherboard sensors for that and it never worked out too well as they ramped too slowly and didn’t vary enough to avoid stepping in the resulting fan speeds.

It does depend on your fan layout though. For example my AIO draws in fresh air so if that ramps up due to CPU usage but my exhaust doesn’t react until inside temps rise then airflow will be restricted by pressure. I need the amount of air coming in from the AOI and the intake near the GPU combined to match that outgoing via the exhaust.

Utildayael · Sep 25, 2023

steelghost said:
(emphasis mine)

This is what I found, which is that if you set up your fan curves in the UEFI via the "Q-Fan" interface you get more stable and well behaved fan behaviour than if you try to do it via Fan Xpert - at least as far as motherboard based fan curves go.

For GPUs, I tend to just leave air cooled ones to their own devices and focus on keeping the air inside the case as cool as I can. If your board has a thermal probe header you can put one eg next to the exhaust fan, and monitor the temps of the air going out, then your case fan curves can respond to that, and because the air inside the case won't change temperature suddenly, neither will your fans' speed.

Oh 100%. It was a very easy magic bullet aside from the fact Asus can't see my wireless mouse for god knows what reason when in BIOS but I survived with a keyboard like a good DOS boy. It's keying everything off the CPU temp which seems to be fine. Overall system temps are good and zero ramping. The zero rpm mode on the 4090 is also behaving properly.

The case I have is pretty monster for airflow [Fractal Torrent] so it certainly sledgehammers a lot of air through it. I'm hoping I never have to go full in on Fan Control but it's good to know it is there and is a great "keep in my back pocket" tool.

I learned a thing... or five.

steelghost · Sep 26, 2023

Graham J said:
Yeah a probe could be a solution to only having one source. I tried using various motherboard sensors for that and it never worked out too well as they ramped too slowly and didn’t vary enough to avoid stepping in the resulting fan speeds.

It does depend on your fan layout though. For example my AIO draws in fresh air so if that ramps up due to CPU usage but my exhaust doesn’t react until inside temps rise then airflow will be restricted by pressure. I need the amount of air coming in from the AOI and the intake near the GPU combined to match that outgoing via the exhaust.

The problem with a lot of the motherboard sensors is that they are attached to the board and so their temperature reading is dominated by the thermal mass of the board itself. This is why, if your board supports it, a carefully placed thermistor can be very effective; if you put it in the airflow path you can then run a curve off it that will respond nicely to changes in the internal plenum temps (not too slow, not too fast). Takes a bit of calibration (read: trial and error) to get the right temperature range and ramp, but once it's dialled in you're all set.

Shavano · Nov 15, 2023

steelghost said:
The problem with a lot of the motherboard sensors is that they are attached to the board and so their temperature reading is dominated by the thermal mass of the board itself. This is why, if your board supports it, a carefully placed thermistor can be very effective; if you put it in the airflow path you can then run a curve off it that will respond nicely to changes in the internal plenum temps (not too slow, not too fast). Takes a bit of calibration (read: trial and error) to get the right temperature range and ramp, but once it's dialled in you're all set.

This. This is an issue that's essential to good thermal monitor design. How do you make a sensor that measures the air temperature instead of board temperature. The answer is you thermally isolate the part as best you can on the board, and if that's not good enough you stick a heat sink on it, or connect it to a thing that literally sticks up into the airflow. In the old days, you'd have used a thermistor, vertically mounted like this:

Honestly there's not much better than that for inexpensively and reliably getting a sensor into the air flow. Although you can use a thermal diode heat sensor if you prefer. Most modern pc's do it with tiny little sensor IC's that look like this:

or similar. Those packages are about 1.3x1.7 mm, so pretty tiny, which is why they're attractive to computer designers. But that tiny package is a challenge for making them sense anything but the PCB temperature. To get them to have any real sensitivity to air temperature, you need to isolate them as best you can from the board, which means they need a courtyard around them, the thinnest possible traces leading to them, and a relief underneath them on every plane of the PCB to reduce thermal conduction through the board. You're better off with an arrangement like shown above,

If you want to sense the temperature of an IC, that's easy if it has a thermal diode on the die; there are IC's you can attach to the thermal diode and directly measure the diode forward voltage, which has a highly repeatable temperature dependence.

Shavano · Nov 15, 2023

That said, I'm wondering yet again what is a good utility to measure temperatures in normal operation on my computer. OEMs provide no standardized tools and Windows still, in 2023 for God's sake, still don't have that as a standard reportable thing that the operating system provides.

continuum · Nov 15, 2023

HWiNFO?

Fan Control? ( https://github.com/Rem0o/FanControl.Releases)

Does CPU-Z do temps?

fan control software

Speedfan, is right not an option, as it does not support my motherboard. I don't like MSI dragon center, and I dont want to have to go to BIOS to adjust fan speed. What software is there, aside from Speedfan (like I said my mobo is not supported)? edit: Windows 10 OS

arstechnica.com

Mentions Argus and also a LibreHardwareMonitor.

reckless_sniper · Nov 16, 2023

For just monitoring CPU and GPU temps , MSI Afterburner also works. It can also hook into Aida64 and Hwinfo for more (temp) sources if you just want everything in one place.

I like that it does a short time graph with it's (full) display.

steelghost · Nov 16, 2023

HWInfo64 is my go-to for monitoring, although it can be data overload since by default it will tell you every possible parameter that exists on your PC

Shavano said:
thermally isolate the part as best you can

It used to be that a thermistor header was a fairly normal feature on even midrange boards, and that would be the gold standard of thermal isolation I think. My otherwise unremarkable Asus PRIME Z370A from five years ago had one, and even a connector for an additional add-in board with x3 more thermistor headers.

However, my supposedly 'enthusiast class' MSI X570 UNIFY is entirely lacking such a header, and looking on spec sheets for some modern boards it seems to be very hit and miss as to whether you get one or not. Shame really.

owdi · Nov 16, 2023

There is GPU temperature then there is the super secret GPU hotspot temperature. When hotspot temp hits 105*C the fan goes bananas no matter what fan curves you have set. It's in the firmware of the GPU. I use SIV (System Information Viewer) to get the hotspot temp.

At least that was my experience with my 2070 Super. Even Minecraft caused the occasional fighter jet launching from a carrier spinup. I fixed it by disconnecting the fans from the graphics card and connecting to an external 12v dc source, and only turn the fans on for gaming, at a constant 2000 rpm. I also set power limit to 75% and limit fps to 60. That keeps the card under 80*C

Axl · Nov 17, 2023

The only thing I have to add is that Q-Fan in the UEFI does let one select multiple temperature inputs - up to three - for chassis fans. I suppose it's supposed to be obvious that the CPU fan header will be controller by CPU temperature, but for maximum flexibility that wouldn't have to be true. For chassis fans, temp source is the second drop down menu in the Q-Fan section, where you can add in other factors like chipset and "motherboard" and sometimes VRM (depending on ROG level).

Utildayael · Dec 2, 2023

Axl said:
The only thing I have to add is that Q-Fan in the UEFI does let one select multiple temperature inputs - up to three - for chassis fans. I suppose it's supposed to be obvious that the CPU fan header will be controller by CPU temperature, but for maximum flexibility that wouldn't have to be true. For chassis fans, temp source is the second drop down menu in the Q-Fan section, where you can add in other factors like chipset and "motherboard" and sometimes VRM (depending on ROG level).

Timely given I as heading back to find this thread to re-read the knowledge shared prior as I try to tackle the next big thing.

So I moved from a 1080P set up to 2K and while that seems innocuous, it drove up my CPU/GPU usage considerable in 2-3x fashion which means more heat, more fans, more noise. It doesn't ramp really like it was with FanXpert so THAT is good. QFan is doing already and I'm not having to go full bonkers yet on FanControl. However... I think I need to do some rework.

Recap:

Intel i9 13900K
ASUS ROG Strix Z790-H
ASUS TUF Gaming Geforce 4090
Noctua NH-15S w/ one fan between the two towers due to RAM height but it gets a straight shot from the 180mm front
Fractal Torrent case w/ 2x180mm front and 3x120mm bottom intakes
No exhaust fans

Cooling is fine as far as "does it keep things cool and no thermal lockups or whatnot" yes.. it does. It just gets loud.

One issue is I need to diagnose better WHAT is getting hot. The 4090 does not get too bad as honestly that thing is one massive headsink brick but it is still pulling out 250-350W and thusly the case has to get that heat out. The 13900K is capped at 250W [or 247? I forget the exact magic Intel # but even my Asus MB suggested that on install so ran with that].

I need to grab the utilities above to get some sort of overlay I can keep up while gaming and generating load. Cyberpunk does a great job of that as does the new update for Satisfactory on unreal 5 w/ Lumen on so heat generation? Check.

My initial alt-tab looking seems to be CPU getting hot and QFAN is triggering all 5 case fans off CPU as all 5 are on the fan header in the Torrent. I am thinking I may need to go more towards breaking those out at least for front vs bottom? Bottom ones are below GPU so they arent contributing as much if any to the CPU cooling as the two front 180's. Should be like zero backpressure given the back of the Torrent is about as open as could be for venting. I have 5 fan connectors on this motherboard so at least some flexibility there if-needed.

I have zero experience with tuning fan curves or really any of this so I'm totally spitballing and could be entirely off in the weeds.

EDIT: They say a photo is worth 1000 words.. [case standing UP, PSU is top-left]

continuum · Dec 3, 2023

From your photo looks like you would benefit at least one more exhaust fan in this system, ideally on the rear panel helping exhaust hot air immediately from the CPU, but maybe there are some other exhaust fans you have (at the top?) and I'm just not seeing it?

fellow human · Dec 3, 2023

That was my thought too, all that positive pressure is probably impeding airflow. But you said it’s cool enough so that’s not the root cause of the excessive noise.

The noise is from driving everything from a single sensor. Those bottom fans probably don’t need to spin much at all except when the GPU is busy. Connect them to a chassis header instead and source that from GPU temp. Except you can’t do that with Q-fan so get Fan Control and do it properly.

While you’re there move the front fans onto their own header too and set a nice slow ramp down time so they can cool your fin stacks even after cpu demand has decreased.

Utildayael · Dec 3, 2023

continuum said:
From your photo looks like you would benefit at least one more exhaust fan in this system, ideally on the rear panel helping exhaust hot air immediately from the CPU, but maybe there are some other exhaust fans you have (at the top?) and I'm just not seeing it?

Ya no top exhaust fans. Air can blow up in to the PSU compartment which exhausts out back but I doubt that does a terrible amount of movement?

Is there a good way to test for positive pressure issues?

Graham J said:
The noise is from driving everything from a single sensor. Those bottom fans probably don’t need to spin much at all except when the GPU is busy. Connect them to a chassis header instead and source that from GPU temp. Except you can’t do that with Q-fan so get Fan Control and do it properly.

While you’re there move the front fans onto their own header too and set a nice slow ramp down time so they can cool your fin stacks even after cpu demand has decreased.

All five are on a chassis header now [via one fan header] but you're right, it's on CPU temp and that was kind of my suspicion. I have like 5 chassis points on the board so I guess technically I could independently wire each one but seems they would most likely just work as two units like you detailed "front" and "bottom" ... I like the idea of basing bottom off GPU temp. The 4090 is pretty much an air dam anyway and this is not a small case. There are a few inches between top of it and the case side.

Additionally, I could put another fan on the Noctua over the RAM but placement would be a little offset or it'd have to be a smaller fan than its mate. I'm thinking that probably is overthinking it since the top 180 blows right into the fin stack? The 180's are rated 43.1 – 146.8 CFM per Fractal.

Thanks

steelghost · Dec 3, 2023

Get HWInfo64 and log all the fan speeds when gaming. That'll show you what is changing and how fast it changes. You can also log temperature and see how fan speeds vary with that.

Jay posted a video recently where he used a smoke machine to show airflow behaviour on a case, an NZXT with angled fan intake, don't remember the exact name. Anyway you can do the same for your own PC with some incense sticks or similar, and a lamp.

For what it's worth, I'm doubtful an exhaust fan will make much difference given a) how much intake you have and b) how open the back of the case is.

I do think splitting the fans into "bottom" and "front" is a good way forward, bottom fans off GPU and front fans off...well I suppose it has to be CPU but try to use the delay feature so it doesn't react super quickly. The front fans are providing overall airflow, they don't really need to respond to anything much

The other reason to separate the banks of fans is that depending on the max RPM of each fan type, you may end up with a PWM signal that causes one size of fan to get very loud, while not spinning up the other fast enough. If you're concerned about noise and you have to mix fans on a single header you want to calibrate the curve for the smaller, faster, noisier fans, but since you have plenty of headers you can give each bank of fans it's own curve.

continuum · Dec 3, 2023

Yah, good advice so far. Best thing to do is to test.

Utildayael · Dec 3, 2023

steelghost said:
Get HWInfo64 and log all the fan speeds when gaming. That'll show you what is changing and how fast it changes. You can also log temperature and see how fan speeds vary with that.

Jay posted a video recently where he used a smoke machine to show airflow behaviour on a case, an NZXT with angled fan intake, don't remember the exact name. Anyway you can do the same for your own PC with some incense sticks or similar, and a lamp.

Ooohhhh that's a good idea and easy to do.

Sounds like I have a way forward. I'll need to get some Y cables or another fan hub so I can split these out into two groups as discussed and... motivation to jack around with the wiring. I love the Torrent for many things but... it's behind-the-board cable management is pretty godawful. Not deep enough and just not great to work with. Building this rig I spent more time trying to cleanly handle the RGB and Fan cables than anything else.

Thanks folks. Project time!

Axl · Dec 14, 2023

Fwiw Phanteks makes fan splitters that are quite decent and inexpensive, although you wouldn't know it from the usual Primal shopping site's current listing. Check Phanteks or Egg directly.

Asus Fan Xpert is Driving me Crazy

Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius

Ars Tribunus Militum

Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius

Ars Praefectus

Ars Praefectus

Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius

Ars Praefectus

Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius

Ars Praefectus

Ars Legatus Legionis

Ars Praefectus

Ars Praefectus

Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius

Ars Centurion

Ars Praefectus

Ars Praefectus

Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius

Ars Praefectus

Ars Legatus Legionis

Ars Legatus Legionis

Ars Legatus Legionis

Ars Tribunus Militum

Ars Praefectus

Ars Praefectus

Ars Praetorian

Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius

Ars Legatus Legionis

Ars Praefectus

Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius

Ars Praefectus

Ars Legatus Legionis

Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius

Ars Praetorian