In-Wall & In-Ceiling Speakers / Klipsch

Kyuu · Jun 3, 2024

Looking to see if anyone has experience with in-walls and in-ceiling speakers for use as a 5.1 setup, and/or experience with Klipsch.

I ask because I have purchased a set of 3 Klipsch R-5502s for use as L/R/C and 2 Klipsch CDT-5650-C-IIs for SL/SR for my new home. The reason I went this way was:

1) My current speaker setup, using some older Energy floorstanders/center/surrounds will be going away. With the way the new home will be setup we don't want the floorstanders taking up space, plus they've been subjected to a lot of cat paws poking at their innards through the rear ports and I've had some other issues.
2) These particular units have aimable tweeters, which is a necessary feature for in-walls/in-ceilings for a proper surround-system IMO. I almost went with Hsu Research's in-walls, but they aren't aimable and after speaking with their sales/support, they recommended going with a solution that can be aimed.
3) Horn tweeters give these high sensitivity, which should make it easier to get respectable volumes, and importantly, intelligible dialogue in the space. Unlike my current home, the wall with the TV will be facing out into a great room so there is effectively a much larger space to fill.
4) Last but certainly not least, these appear to be relatively high-end speakers, just an older series that is being discontinued, so they're heavily discounted and I was able to get them even a little cheaper as open-box deals. The whole 5-speaker system cost only $800.

So what I'm looking for is to see if anyone has tips, tricks, or caveats about the use of in-walls and in-ceilings for a surround system, or experience with Klipsch speakers in general. I'm concerned in particular about the Klipsch's being "fatiguing" or overly bright due to the horns, as that seems to be a common complaint.

If it matters, I'll be bringing along and reusing my current Hsu Research subwoofer and Denon receiver.

rain shadow · Jun 5, 2024

They are open back, so the sound of the speaker will be influenced by the cavity it's mounted in. Maybe stuff some sound deadening material into the cavity (although probably not in direct contact with the back of the speaker). Otherwise just follow mfr instructions for mounting them.

We live in the age of Audyssey and YPAO so any big problems with timing and frequency response should be reduced to littler problems.

But I think it would be unfair to Klipsch to expect the in-wall speakers to sound as exactly good your old Energys.

Kyuu · Jun 5, 2024

rain shadow said:
They are open back, so the sound of the speaker will be influenced by the cavity it's mounted in. Maybe stuff some sound deadening material into the cavity (although probably not in direct contact with the back of the speaker). Otherwise just follow mfr instructions for mounting them.

We live in the age of Audyssey and YPAO so any big problems with timing and frequency response should be reduced to littler problems.

But I think it would be unfair to Klipsch to expect the in-wall speakers to sound as exactly good your old Energys.

Yeah, I was thinking of filling the cavities with fiberglass insulation. As far as I'm aware, it should be perfectly safe for it to be in contact with the speaker. Speaker enclosures are typically filled with insulation anyway, right?

You don't think these Klipsch in-walls will sound as good as the Energys? I'm not so sure. The Energys are relatively small floorstanders -- I think the woofers are maybe 8"? And due to the wall mounting, I was only able to use rather small bookshelves as the surrounds. The one thing I'm unsure of is the horns -- I've heard that entry-level Klipsch horns are extremely bright and fatiguing. While the ones I bought are the plain Reference series, which I believe is Klipsch's entry level line, the components have more in common with the Reference Premier line, which I've heard are much more balanced.

I'm not sure if Audyssey will do much for compensating for the frequency response of the speaker itself, since it's primarily focused on dealing with issues caused by the environment.

rain shadow · Jun 5, 2024

The horns look like they just point straight out from the wall...I think some of the people who had complaints about the horns had floor standers that they pointed straight at their listening location. If your chair/sofa is in between where the speakers are pointing the horns will kind of be pointed past you. Also, I'm sure Klipsch has been refining them over the years so I would hope they are not has bright as their reputation (based on prior designs) would indicate.

The bass you get from in-wall will probably not go as low as a floor standing speaker. I suspect a modest subwoofer would be enough to make up the difference so that's a potential option if it turns out to be the case.

Not sure why, but I had assumed you had the Energy Veritas series (maybe someone else asked a similar question 10 or 15 years ago and that was their situation). Energy made some average and budget speakers as well so I guess I'll retract that bit.

Anyway, I hope it turns out well. There are a lot of really crappy in-wall speakers out there and I think your choice is one of the best options.

rain shadow · Jun 5, 2024

And pls keep us updated on how the project goes!

Kyuu · Jun 5, 2024

rain shadow said:
The horns look like they just point straight out from the wall...I think some of the people who had complaints about the horns had floor standers that they pointed straight at their listening location.

The horn/tweeter can be adjusted, which is actually one of the reasons I chose this speaker instead of something like the Hsu HW-1, since otherwise toe-in is impossible with an in-wall speaker.

rain shadow said:
Also, I'm sure Klipsch has been refining them over the years so I would hope they are not has bright as their reputation (based on prior designs) would indicate.

Yes... but this speaker model dates from 2012 according to Klipsch's spec sheet. The fact that they were discounted, presumably due to the model being discontinued, is a major factor in why I chose them. I guess we'll see.

rain shadow said:
The bass you get from in-wall will probably not go as low as a floor standing speaker. I suspect a modest subwoofer would be enough to make up the difference so that's a potential option if it turns out to be the case.

Oh I'm definitely running a subwoofer. I mentioned in my OP that I'll be bringing along the Hsu subwoofer from my current setup.

rain shadow said:
Not sure why, but I had assumed you had the Energy Veritas series (maybe someone else asked a similar question 10 or 15 years ago and that was their situation). Energy made some average and budget speakers as well so I guess I'll retract that bit.

Now that you mention it I can't recall which particular model the Energys are. I got them nearly a decade and a half ago at this point. I'll have to look at the back.

rain shadow said:
Anyway, I hope it turns out well. There are a lot of really crappy in-wall speakers out there and I think your choice is one of the best options.

I hope you're right!

rain shadow · Jun 5, 2024

Kyuu said:
The horn/tweeter can be adjusted, which is actually one of the reasons I chose this speaker instead of something like the Hsu HW-1, since otherwise toe-in is impossible with an in-wall speaker.

Okay, so in that case if it's still too bright you can do toe-out to redirect the excess treble.

richleader · Jun 5, 2024

Yes... but this speaker model dates from 2012 according to Klipsch's spec sheet. The fact that they were discounted, presumably due to the model being discontinued, is a major factor in why I chose them. I guess we'll see.

The complaints about the horns pretty much went away with the RP series which came out... just about after your date here.

But realistically things are probably fine and as good as you're likely to do for any price: in-walls are a really low-volume part (number wise) in a fairly low-volume advanced audio industry now (we live in soundbar world) so sales like the ones you were in on are VERY frequent to align inventory. Or something: I don't know how or why it happens, it just happens a lot where everything gets dropped to 25-50% MSRP. So these might not actually be on their way out of the market so don't take the MSRP as reflective as their actual worth... (That goes for most floorstanding speakers as well; I'm a JBL fanboy and I don't think I've ever paid more than 50% of list price.)

I don't think anyone puts a lot of effort into in-walls and the higher price classes (outside of truly top tier pro stuff) seem to be more about having cleaner looking backsides (let's monogram our crossovers!) which is ridiculous since you'll only see them once! But a lot of times it seems like "lets give our old parts to our car audio division guys to see if they can repurpose them with their knowhow to put in people's walls!"

FrankDCat · Jun 7, 2024

FWIW, when I redid the family room I went from having floor standing fronts and fairly large satellites to bookshelf fronts and in-wall surrounds (all low end B&W). Had I know what the in-wall surrounds would be like I would have just done in-wall surrounds for all 5 speakers. So this is to say you can definitely get great sound out of in-wall speakers.

Kyuu · Jun 7, 2024

FrankDCat said:
FWIW, when I redid the family room I went from having floor standing fronts and fairly large satellites to bookshelf fronts and in-wall surrounds (all low end B&W). Had I know what the in-wall surrounds would be like I would have just done in-wall surrounds for all 5 speakers. So this is to say you can definitely get great sound out of in-wall speakers.

Low end B&W? Based on what I'm looking at, a pair of low-end B&W bookshelves costs more than I spent on my entire set. o_o

But yeah, I think in-walls get an undeserved bad rap in the audiophile world. Or at least that's what I'm hoping since I already spent the money.

macosandlinux · Jun 7, 2024

Kyuu said:
Low end B&W? Based on what I'm looking at, a pair of low-end B&W bookshelves costs more than I spent on my entire set. o_o

But yeah, I think in-walls get an undeserved bad rap in the audiophile world. Or at least that's what I'm hoping since I already spent the money.

Good in-walls are in most high-end home theaters (all back/side/top channels) - often also as L/C/R, behind screens etc.
There's nothing wrong with them, they just need expensive installs and they don't look as sexy (hidden is good in a cinema) as an audiophile would like.

In-wall speakers

www.paradigm.com

Kyuu · Jun 11, 2024

Shit, just realized something. The R-5502 needs a 16.5" cutout. Stud spacing is 16". Getting that into the wall horizontally is going to be a bit of an issue. I don't think getting the center in in the vertical orientation is likely to work out unless I mount the TV a bit too high for comfort. My earholes are at about 43" when seated. So if I center the center there, the top of the speaker will be at 51.875". Having the bottom of the TV at 52" sounds like a neck ache.

Maybe I can notch out a half inch from the studs on either side? Forget the in-wall for the center speaker and just have one on top of the entertainment center (how my current system is set up)? Hmm...

Edit: Ack, 16" on center, not 16" of space. So I'd have to notch out a bit more than a half inch...

rain shadow · Jun 11, 2024

I would think the part that has to fit between the studs is only 14.5 inches. The 16.5" cutout is probably just drywall depth and you shouldn't have to excavate any lumber. They would not make an in-wall speaker that doesn't accommodate the US industry standard 16" on center.

Is it a non-load-bearing wall? I'm not you, but wouldn't hesitate to chop out the stud that was getting in the way of horizontal placement and then toenailing a couple of 2x6s above the opening to make a header.

Kyuu · Jun 11, 2024

rain shadow said:
I would think the part that has to fit between the studs is only 14.5 inches. The 16.5" cutout is probably just drywall depth and you shouldn't have to excavate any lumber. They would not make an in-wall speaker that doesn't accommodate the US industry standard 16" on center.

I'd hope you're right but you never know. Guess the easiest way to tell for sure will be to take it out of the box and measure.

rain shadow said:
Is it a non-load-bearing wall? I'm not you, but wouldn't hesitate to chop out the stud that was getting in the way of horizontal placement and then toenailing a couple of 2x6s above the opening to make a header.

Unfortunately I'm not versed in the ways of carpentry (or whatever the relevant discipline is) to determine if it's load bearing or not. I will have access to the home while it is framed, which I plan to take advantage of with judicious picture taking.

Edit: Another thing I'm wondering is if there might be any benefit to putting some acoustic foam in the wall cavities over simply filling them with insulation.

Kyuu · Jun 12, 2024

Looked at the actual speaker and... yeah. Need 16.5" of space if I want the thing to actually be in the wall.

w00key · Jun 12, 2024

Kyuu said:
Looked at the actual speaker and... yeah. Need 16.5" of space if I want the thing to actually be in the wall.

Can you build a wooden box around the speaker and cut off the studs? A bit like those steel beam reinforcement when you want to open a hole in a load bearing wall.

But yeah suddenly it turns into a major project...

rain shadow · Jun 12, 2024

Kyuu said:
Looked at the actual speaker and... yeah. Need 16.5" of space if I want the thing to actually be in the wall.

That just doesn't any make sense to me. 16" on center is so incredibly common that it would be a huge marketing mistake to force people to carve out and reframe their walls.

Call up Klipsch and ask them to clarify.

Kyuu · Jun 12, 2024

w00key said:
Can you build a wooden box around the speaker and cut off the studs? A bit like those steel beam reinforcement when you want to open a hole in a load bearing wall.

But yeah suddenly it turns into a major project...

Most likely. But yeah, the question is if it's worth that much effort. The main reason for the in-walls are so the speakers aren't taking up floor space. While having all three speakers match would be preferable, it's not a deal-breaker to ex-nay the in-wall for the center channel, since that speaker can live on top of whatever entertainment center we end up putting under the TV.

Another option is to use an R-5800 or R-5650 for the center, as that doesn't have the second woofer and so that being installed vertically wouldn't force the TV to be mounted overly high, though it would extend a bit lower and so I'd have to worry about obstruction from the entertainment center.

Kyuu · Jun 12, 2024

rain shadow said:
That just doesn't any make sense to me. 16" on center is so incredibly common that it would be a huge marketing mistake to force people to carve out and reframe their walls.

Call up Klipsch and ask them to clarify.

Well these are intended to be installed vertically. Installing horizontally for the center is a compromise forced by the display, so it's not unthinkable that it wasn't considered important that it fit in standard stud spacing when oriented that way.

Kaiser Sosei · Jun 12, 2024

Unless your wall is an exterior wall it is most likely not load bearing. Even if it is it can be worked around easily and would be best to do while framing is happening and everything is open. Imagine your speaker is a window, framing for it now is a lot easier than when the building is finished. This is when I would run all wires and cables in the wall as well. Once drywall is up, it gets messier.

If you are on friendly terms with your carpenter, I'd discuss with them and it shouldn't be a big deal. Basically a couple of cuts and adding a couple of pieces of wood.

rain shadow · Jun 12, 2024

Kyuu said:
Well these are intended to be installed vertically. Installing horizontally for the center is a compromise forced by the display, so it's not unthinkable that it wasn't considered important that it fit in standard stud spacing when oriented that way.

How about this one then

Klipsch R-5800-W II

In-wall speaker

www.crutchfield.com

I looks like along the longest dimension it would fit in a stud bay horizontally. The driver's won't be symmetrical but that will be hidden behind the grill.

Kyuu · Jun 12, 2024

Kaiser Sosei said:
Unless your wall is an exterior wall it is most likely not load bearing. Even if it is it can be worked around easily and would be best to do while framing is happening and everything is open. Imagine your speaker is a window, framing for it now is a lot easier than when the building is finished. This is when I would run all wires and cables in the wall as well. Once drywall is up, it gets messier.

If you are on friendly terms with your carpenter, I'd discuss with them and it shouldn't be a big deal. Basically a couple of cuts and adding a couple of pieces of wood.

Yes I intend to at least run the wiring before drywall goes up. However, it's not a simple matter since this will be a subcontractor of the builder, and it's merely a "semi-custom" tract home. Altering the framing might not be something they're willing to accommodate. They weren't even willing to have the electrical subcontractor run speaker cable because apparently they've had issues with people being unhappy with it in some way and trying to make warranty claims.

Worth a shot though.

rain shadow said:
How about this one then

Klipsch R-5800-W II

In-wall speaker

www.crutchfield.com

I looks like along the longest dimension it would fit in a stud bay horizontally. The driver's won't be symmetrical but that will be hidden behind the grill.

Yes I was considering perhaps using that or the R-5650 (same speaker just with 6.5" woofer) for the center. Won't exactly match the L/Rs, but that's probably not an issue. Smaller one would be easier to fit in the space between the bottom of the TV and the top of the entertainment center without having to go horizontal.

NervousEnergy · Jun 13, 2024

I love Klipsch and am sad I had to leave mine with our old house as the new place was pre-wired for everything in-wall. I'm biased toward a brighter sound, so YMMV. For HT sound I think brighter is much better.

Have you considered using an RP-240 or 640 Klipsch flat for the center? They're pricey but probably the best Klipsch alternative if you don't want to figure out how to frame an in-wall horizontal front channel.

And yeah, Klipsch off-current pricing is wild. You can spend a fortune on the very latest model, or a fraction of that for the last generation model that sounds exactly the same.

Kyuu · Jun 13, 2024

The RP-240 and 640 are significantly more expensive than the in-walls I'm looking at, or even a more "traditional" center like the RP-500C or RP-404C. I'm also wary of the fact that they are a combination of tiny drivers in a tiny enclosure. If I don't go with an R-5650, I'll probably just use the RP-500C.

What most people don't realize is that horizontally-oriented MTM (mid-tweeter-mid) are a compromise design to accommodate the fact that centers generally have to work in a limited amount of vertical space. They actually have compromised horizontal dispersion, which is the opposite of what you want for the most important home theater speaker, unless you are always sitting in the sweet spot and have no friends/family. A regular bookshelf (or in my case, the R-5650) sitting vertically is actually much better, acoustically speaking.

In-Wall & In-Ceiling Speakers / Klipsch

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