Tandem OLED, the next big thing in Displays?

ScifiGeek

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Apple often seems to push display tech to the limit. The previous iPad Pro screen had something like 2500 zones, which eclipses just about every other FALD LCD.

Now the new iPad Pros have Tandem OLEDs with 1000 nits full screen, and 1600 Nits highlights based on having some kind of layered OLED panels or elements to boost brightness (details are lacking on exactly what is going on).

It also seems with dual emitters at each location, for regular brightness the would also be more burn in resistant.

Will we see this in OLED Monitor or TVs to boost brightness and/or durability, or will this remain an Apple exclusive. It sounds like a it would significantly increase costs....
 

OrangeCream

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Monitors and TVs don't really need more brightness, although durability would always be nice. I expect this to show up on Android phones and laptops though, as it seems like microLED is perpetually just out of reach on the horizon. That's ultimately what we want, it's just way too expensive.
There was just one released:

It costs £1599, £300 more than the 13” iPad Pro.
 
Man, those Chinese Android skins are shameless, like Samsung circa 2009.

Re brightness, modern EVO OLEDs are much brighter than older ones, enough for everybody's livingroom unless the display is in direct sunlight.
 

Paladin

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Sigh... curved edges. I thought we were done with that silliness.

As for the screen, meh. I don't need a brighter screen or a longer lasting screen really. I've had multiple phones with OLED screens that have lasted at least 3 or 4 years without noticeable issue. IF they got more dim, it wasn't enough to bother me and they were certainly bright enough to use in common conditions without making me want more brightness. I'm certainly not going to pay more for a double dose of OLED that, presumably, uses more power to show me the same image but maybe a bit brighter.

I want an accurate, reliable, sharp and efficient screen with at least 90hz display refresh. That's it. It doesn't need to stab my eyes out with brightness.
 

ScifiGeek

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While I never noticed Tandem OLED, before this announcement, I've now found research papers going back to 2016 on Tandem OLED, and many rumors starting in 2022 that Apple would be using Tandem OLED from Samsung for 2024 iPads.

Generally it's expected to have about 2X brightness efficiency, and 4X longevity. Both desirable characteristics for Monitors and TVs as well.
 

OrangeCream

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I want an accurate, reliable, sharp and efficient screen with at least 90hz display refresh. That's it. It doesn't need to stab my eyes out with brightness.
The tandem oled mean for normal use the pixel can be driven at half the normal brightness. I’ve hear that translates to a 4x increase in device lifespan.
 

ScifiGeek

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I wouldn't expect tandem OLED to show up in TV sizes anytime soon, outside of maybe halo products out-of-reach to anyone who isn't filthy rich or okay with taking out the equivalent of a car loan for the TV.

It will take time to become more common, but It really shouldn't be that much more expensive. This is really just a more advanced Pixel structure with a few more microns thick deposition layers.
 

Kyuu

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It will take time to become more common, but It really shouldn't be that much more expensive. This is really just a more advanced Pixel structure with a few more microns thick deposition layers.
Do you have a source for it not being much more expensive? My understanding is that this is essentially two OLED panels stacked on top of each other. Unless I'm misunderstanding something, I don't see how that could not be significantly more expensive than a display that only needs uses one OLED panel. At smartphone and even tablet sizes, where the display is a relatively minor portion of the cost of the device, it could probably become commonplace. At TV sizes, however, the cost of the panel itself dominates, I believe.
 

ScifiGeek

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It's not two panels. That's a marketing exaggeration. It's an advanced pixel with two emission layers. It's also been around for a while. We just haven't been paying attention. LG has been selling P-OLED for automotive since 2019. It's Tandem OLED.

Schematic-diagrams-of-a-single-OLED-and-a-tandem-OLED-respectively-The-HILs-standing.png


The "magic" is the "Charge Generation Layer" that keeps both emission layers working properly. Layers are microns thin, they are they are all within the pixel, driven by the same Anode/Cathode:


1-s2.0-S156611991500169X-fx1_lrg.jpg
 

Kyuu

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Interesting, thanks for those technical details. I'd still wonder about manufacturing costs with the more complicated layering, and perhaps lower yields, but may not take as long to come down in price as I was thinking. How is P-OLED the same as tandem OLED though? The main distinguishing characteristic of P-OLED is the use of plastic substrate instead of glass, as far as I'm aware, and some quick Googling isn't turning up anything that contradicts that.
 

ScifiGeek

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LG P-OLED is using plastic but it's also Tandem OLED. Here is the LG P-OLED page:


P-OLED is LG Display’s unique technology that incorporates innovative Tandem OLED onto a flexible plastic substrate to make the design as slim and light as possible. Its groundbreaking flexible nature allows it to curve with the interior design for ergonomic and aesthetically pleasing designs we’ve never witnessed before. Moreover, P-OLED uses 60% less power and weighs 80% lighter than LCD displays, making it the ultimate solution for electric vehicles in particular.


Structure of a conventional single-layer OLED (left), LG Display’s ‘Tandem OLED’ which incorporates two organic light-emitting layers (right):

Tandem-OLED_2.png


Tandem OLED embodies LG Display’s groundbreaking two-stack OLED technology, where an extra organic emitting layer is integrated into the existing single layer. What sets Tandem OLED apart is its ability to maintain its thinness while unlocking enhanced capabilities. By harnessing two organic emitting layers, it delivers brighter screens while effectively dispersing energy across the OLED components for optimal stability and a longer lifes
 

Paladin

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The tandem oled mean for normal use the pixel can be driven at half the normal brightness. I’ve hear that translates to a 4x increase in device lifespan.
People can keep their broken screen iPhone for a couple years more... oh wait, Apple fans just buy a new phone every year or two anyway. :biggreen:;)

Serious though, for a TV and maybe for a tablet it makes sense. If they do it on a phone, it will be a sign of the end times because it would be Apple basically admitting that you don't need a new iPhone every 12-18 months anymore.

I don't think I am outside the normal user experience to say that generally my mobile devices with OLED screens still look great even 3-4 years later. I have a Samsung S20FE phone that still looks like brand new despite almost 4 years of daily use and my wife and I have Samsung Tab S5e tablets which are over 4 years old now I think. Still excellent. I think we are already at the point where they last close to long enough... so it's sort of a dubious value there, for me anyway. For most people I see, the physical durability of the screen (glass) and phone body and particularly the cable port are some of the more frequent causes for replacement than the underlying OLED screen.

As for being driven at half the normal brightness... does that equate to real world efficiency increase? Or is it just half the power into double the screen components so... about the same?
 

OrangeCream

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People can keep their broken screen iPhone for a couple years more... oh wait, Apple fans just buy a new phone every year or two anyway. :biggreen:;)
It's the battery that usually fails on me first; I've kept phones for 5 years after replacing the battery at year 3
Serious though, for a TV and maybe for a tablet it makes sense. If they do it on a phone, it will be a sign of the end times because it would be Apple basically admitting that you don't need a new iPhone every 12-18 months anymore.
Apple has known this for years now:
For example, in March 2019, 26% of iPhone buyers held onto their previous phone for three years or more.
I don't think I am outside the normal user experience to say that generally my mobile devices with OLED screens still look great even 3-4 years later. I have a Samsung S20FE phone that still looks like brand new despite almost 4 years of daily use and my wife and I have Samsung Tab S5e tablets which are over 4 years old now I think. Still excellent. I think we are already at the point where they last close to long enough... so it's sort of a dubious value there, for me anyway. For most people I see, the physical durability of the screen (glass) and phone body and particularly the cable port are some of the more frequent causes for replacement than the underlying OLED screen.

As for being driven at half the normal brightness... does that equate to real world efficiency increase? Or is it just half the power into double the screen components so... about the same?
Probably a little of everything.

Half the power into double the screen components means, assuming linear degradation, twice the lifetime. On the other hand, assuming nonlinear degradation, half the power might translate into, as I earlier mentioned, four times the lifetime.
 

Paladin

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I guess we will see. I kind of half-predict that either way it might not really catch on unless it is basically no more expensive than normal for them or results in some reduced warranty costs. If it extends the life of the phone in a meaningful way, it might result in fewer sales. If it results in less power use, it might also result in fewer sales due to longer battery lifespan. Or it might do not much at all for many users who just buy a new phone for cool-factor anyway.
 

OrangeCream

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I guess we will see. I kind of half-predict that either way it might not really catch on unless it is basically no more expensive than normal for them or results in some reduced warranty costs. If it extends the life of the phone in a meaningful way, it might result in fewer sales. If it results in less power use, it might also result in fewer sales due to longer battery lifespan. Or it might do not much at all for many users who just buy a new phone for cool-factor anyway.
Apple has mastered their craft. If there are fewer sales due to longer lifespan then they’ll increase the price accordingly; after all longer battery life is a feature.
 
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Paladin

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Apple has mastered their craft. If there are fewer sales due to longer lifespan then they’ll increase the price accordingly; after all longer battery life is a feature.
Yeah, I can see that happening. The rest of the market can use it as a chance to undercut them and sell more, or just match prices and make more money. Time will tell.
 

Semi On

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Apple has mastered their craft. If there are fewer sales due to longer lifespan then they’ll increase the price accordingly; after all longer battery life is a feature.

Or they'll just add more ads for their services and find new ways to squeeze more service revenue from the install base.
 
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OrangeCream

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Yeah, I can see that happening. The rest of the market can use it as a chance to undercut them and sell more, or just match prices and make more money. Time will tell.
It’s already happened and likely will continue to happen:


With the iPhone X starting at $999, the ASP for an iPhone has risen dramatically. As a result, Apple was able to report 1 million fewer iPhone sales than last year Q1, yet posted iPhone revenue growth of 13%.
Or they'll just add more ads for their services and find new ways to squeeze more service revenue from the install base.
A little bit of everything I’m sure.
 

JLnyc

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It will take time to become more common, but It really shouldn't be that much more expensive. This is really just a more advanced Pixel structure with a few more microns thick deposition layers.

I've heard from some that Tandem OLEDs in larger sizes cannot easily work with current Fine metal mask technology, I wonder if there have been any papers on cresting Tandem OLEDs with ink jet printing tech, which does not need FMM tech? Also another hurdle for Tandem displays is outlined here from a pc gamer article (which I'm not allowed to link) with regard to the chips required to run them:

"Then there's the problem of driving two panels in parallel. Very precise control over image update and timing is required. Indeed, Apple's new M4 chip has a brand new dedicated display controller block designed to do just that. That timing and synchronisation challenge is only going to be more tricky in a premium desktop PC context where you might expect a refresh rate of 240 Hz or more"

"Imagine trying to update two panels in perfect synchronicity 240 or more times in one second. Get it even infinitesimally wrong and you're going to have all kinds of response and image blurring issues. So, it's likely that any dual-layer OLED monitor would need an expensive bespoke control chip to drive the panels."

It would be interesting to find out from an insider what the true issues might be to getting Tandem OLEDs sooner than later. thanks j
 

ScifiGeek

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I've heard from some that Tandem OLEDs in larger sizes cannot easily work with current Fine metal mask technology, I wonder if there have been any papers on cresting Tandem OLEDs with ink jet printing tech, which does not need FMM tech? Also another hurdle for Tandem displays is outlined here from a pc gamer article (which I'm not allowed to link) with regard to the chips required to run them:

"Then there's the problem of driving two panels in parallel. Very precise control over image update and timing is required. Indeed, Apple's new M4 chip has a brand new dedicated display controller block designed to do just that. That timing and synchronisation challenge is only going to be more tricky in a premium desktop PC context where you might expect a refresh rate of 240 Hz or more"

"Imagine trying to update two panels in perfect synchronicity 240 or more times in one second. Get it even infinitesimally wrong and you're going to have all kinds of response and image blurring issues. So, it's likely that any dual-layer OLED monitor would need an expensive bespoke control chip to drive the panels."

It would be interesting to find out from an insider what the true issues might be to getting Tandem OLEDs sooner than later. thanks j

It's NOT two panels. You can't control each layer independently. It's the same as any other panel as far as display driver is concerned.
 

JLnyc

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It's NOT two panels. You can't control each layer independently. It's the same as any other panel as far as display driver is concerned.
Thanks for the reply. What technical obstacles remain in order for a maker to be able to produce a large screen Tandem OLED? Does current FMM tech limit the sizes that can be built? Is there any reason say a 42' inch tandem OLED could not be built using ink jet printing?

Obviously I get that we are only at 13 inches now, and iteration is difficult, but as traditional OLEDs lose more market share, this may be the only way for them to go forward in a realistic time frame, outside of someone developing a miracle blue that can brighten the current tech by 2 or 3X. There is little question in my mind at least that this is precisely the tech OLED makers need to compete with all manner of other display technologies. thks j
 

ScifiGeek

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Thanks for the reply. What technical obstacles remain in order for a maker to be able to produce a large screen Tandem OLED? Does current FMM tech limit the sizes that can be built? Is there any reason say a 42' inch tandem OLED could not be built using ink jet printing?

Obviously I get that we are only at 13 inches now, and iteration is difficult, but as traditional OLEDs lose more market share, this may be the only way for them to go forward in a realistic time frame, outside of someone developing a miracle blue that can brighten the current tech by 2 or 3X. There is little question in my mind at least that this is precisely the tech OLED makers need to compete with all manner of other display technologies. thks j

I have no idea if there are any roadblocks going to a larger size.
 

ttnuagmada

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It's not two panels. That's a marketing exaggeration. It's an advanced pixel with two emission layers. It's also been around for a while. We just haven't been paying attention. LG has been selling P-OLED for automotive since 2019. It's Tandem OLED.

Schematic-diagrams-of-a-single-OLED-and-a-tandem-OLED-respectively-The-HILs-standing.png


The "magic" is the "Charge Generation Layer" that keeps both emission layers working properly. Layers are microns thin, they are they are all within the pixel, driven by the same Anode/Cathode:


1-s2.0-S156611991500169X-fx1_lrg.jpg


I get why this is revolutionary for the segment and the FMM evap method, but has LG not been stacking layers from day one with the VTE method in their TV emitters? What's special about this outside of it being a first for FMM?
 
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ttnuagmada

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I've heard from some that Tandem OLEDs in larger sizes cannot easily work with current Fine metal mask technology, I wonder if there have been any papers on cresting Tandem OLEDs with ink jet printing tech, which does not need FMM tech? Also another hurdle for Tandem displays is outlined here from a pc gamer article (which I'm not allowed to link) with regard to the chips required to run them:

"Then there's the problem of driving two panels in parallel. Very precise control over image update and timing is required. Indeed, Apple's new M4 chip has a brand new dedicated display controller block designed to do just that. That timing and synchronisation challenge is only going to be more tricky in a premium desktop PC context where you might expect a refresh rate of 240 Hz or more"

"Imagine trying to update two panels in perfect synchronicity 240 or more times in one second. Get it even infinitesimally wrong and you're going to have all kinds of response and image blurring issues. So, it's likely that any dual-layer OLED monitor would need an expensive bespoke control chip to drive the panels."

It would be interesting to find out from an insider what the true issues might be to getting Tandem OLEDs sooner than later. thanks j

That PC Gamer article is beyond misinformed. There's already one of these in the Honor Magic 6, which is a phone. You're also about to see it MS and Samsung products (and probably others). Tandem isn't literally 2 panels stacked together. It's 2 emitting layers stacked together. This is a first for FMM. That's what special about it. However, LG has been using stacked emitting layers in it's TV's from day one. In fact they've had 3 layers since at least 2016. There is not anything extra that needs to be controlled. Same with QD-OLED using 4 emitting layers.

IE all of the WOLED and QD-OLED monitors on the market already have more emitting layers than Tandem OLED does.
 

JLnyc

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That PC Gamer article is beyond misinformed. There's already one of these in the Honor Magic 6, which is a phone. You're also about to see it MS and Samsung products (and probably others). Tandem isn't literally 2 panels stacked together. It's 2 emitting layers stacked together. This is a first for FMM. That's what special about it. However, LG has been using stacked emitting layers in it's TV's from day one. In fact they've had 3 layers since at least 2016. There is not anything extra that needs to be controlled. Same with QD-OLED using 4 emitting layers.

IE all of the WOLED and QD-OLED monitors on the market already have more emitting layers than Tandem OLED does.

So what is your ultimate point with regard to the feasibility of large screen tandem OLED's. j
 

Kyuu

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So what is your ultimate point with regard to the feasibility of large screen tandem OLED's. j
I think the ultimate point is that this is actually not relevant at TV sizes, as the reporting around it has been misleading. Multiple emitting layers may be novel in phone/tablet OLED screens, but it's par for the course in larger sizes.
 

ttnuagmada

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So what is your ultimate point with regard to the feasibility of large screen tandem OLED's. j

LG and Samsung have used more emitting layers than Tandem OLED from day one. LG's WOLED emitters currently have 2 blue emitting layers and a red/green layer. Samsung's QD-OLED's use 3 blue emitting layers and a green layer.

Here are some pics that compare what this looks like in the emitter stack. The differences in the manufacturing methods used between the small and large panels is why you see 2 different approaches. the small panels doing only 1 layer means they have to use actual RGB OLED's. The manufacturing for the larger panels, If I remember correctly, have issues if you're trying to do sub-pixels with different material makeups. However, stacking them is easier, so making emitters with several stacked OLED's of one design, and using a QD or RGB filter is a better approach.

In an ideal world you'd have true RGB emitters with multiple stacked layers across the board, but stacking is mostly unecessary on the smaller panels, and RGB is hard on the larger panels. I'm not sure if stacking is inherently harder/more expensive using FMM or not. It may just be something that needs to ramp up to become cheap enough to justify.

Inkjet printing is another approach that's been researched for a long time. The issue with it however, is that for injet printing, the OLED materials are different, and don't have near the longevity of the OLED's made using the 2 popular evaporation methods.

LG WOLED
RCrg6sD.jpeg



Samsung QD-OLED stack (one on the left is currently being used)
qrocco9.png


And then Tandem OLED

LW59vOf.png
 
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ScifiGeek

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LG and Samsung have used more emitting layers than Tandem OLED from day one. LG's WOLED emitters currently have 2 blue emitting layers and a red/green layer. Samsung's QD-OLED's use 3 blue emitting layers and a green layer.

Here are some pics that compare what this looks like in the emitter stack. The differences in the manufacturing methods used between the small and large panels is why you see 2 different approaches. the small panels doing only 1 layer means they have to use actual RGB OLED's. The manufacturing for the larger panels, If I remember correctly, have issues if you're trying to do sub-pixels with different material makeups. However, stacking them is easier, so making emitters with several stacked OLED's of one design, and using a QD or RGB filter is a better approach.

In an ideal world you'd have true RGB emitters with multiple stacked layers across the board, but stacking is mostly unecessary on the smaller panels, and RGB is hard on the larger panels. I'm not sure if stacking is inherently harder/more expensive using FMM or not. It may just be something that needs to ramp up to become cheap enough to justify.

Inkjet printing is another approach that's been researched for a long time. The issue with it however, is that for injet printing, the OLED materials are different, and don't have near the longevity of the OLED's made using the 2 popular evaporation methods.

LG WOLED
RCrg6sD.jpeg



Samsung QD-OLED stack (one on the left is currently being used)
qrocco9.png


And then Tandem OLED

LW59vOf.png

Then why are these LG/Samsung OLED less bright than these new Tandem OLEDs on the iPad?

New iPad has 1000 Nits full screen brightness. New LG/Samsung TV/Monitor screens are about 250 nits full screen brightness.
 

Chris FOM

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It's NOT two panels. You can't control each layer independently. It's the same as any other panel as far as display driver is concerned.
When announcing the new iPads Apple explicitly mentioned the M4 having a new display controller that was necessary to drive the screen. If there’s nothing special about the display driver then what was Apple referencing? I’m not questioning what you’re saying, just trying to better understand the tech.
 

ttnuagmada

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Then why are these LG/Samsung OLED less bright than these new Tandem OLEDs on the iPad?

New iPad has 1000 Nits full screen brightness. New LG/Samsung TV/Monitor screens are about 250 nits full screen brightness.

Because they are 1/50th of the size. brightness limitations on TV sized panels are 100% related to power consumption. A Tandem OLED would have the same limitation. That's why they have similar peak output numbers. using 20w for 1000 nits in a 11in panel for a short period of time is completely different from using 1000w in a 77in display.
 

ttnuagmada

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When announcing the new iPads Apple explicitly mentioned the M4 having a new display controller that was necessary to drive the screen. If there’s nothing special about the display driver then what was Apple referencing? I’m not questioning what you’re saying, just trying to better understand the tech.

Microsoft and Samsung will also be using this panel, and the Honor Magic 6 beat Apple to market by a couple of months with a Tandem OLED. It's possible the M4 has a video processing element to help improve picture quality similar to the video processing used in TV's and higher end monitors, but otherwise I don't even see what would be there for it to control.
 
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