Windows 11 24H2 is released to the public but only on Copilot+ PCs (for now)
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Does this mean that some PCs which are now incompatible can get the update and brick themselves? Or will there be a banner that says something to the effect of "upgrade or be left behind"?
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Or use Win 10. The processors involved are literally 20 years old.
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Do I understand this correctly that my three year old gaming PC won’t be able to use the latest AI stuff but would still get this update? If that is the case and “old” hardware is the kill switch for the AI creep I’d consider this a feature. Nothing against AI assistants, I use GitHub copilot daily. But I don’t like it being shoved down my throat. I want to decide where and when I want to resort to AI.
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Any computer that installed Windows 11 the official way without registry or USB installer hacks will work. This CPU limitation affects CPUs prior to SSE4.2/POPCNT attributes. For example, my 2008-era Q6600 CPU machine no longer boots after a certain test build of 24H2. However, my 2012-era i5-2500K boots 24H2 just fine with its hacked install of Windows 11 (because it has the SSE4.2/POPCNT feature-set). Any machine that installed Windows 11 officially won't encounter this issue because it affects systems built prior to 2010 for the most part (Windows 7 era machines).
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Seeing as I have a Windows Mixed Reality VR headset which will be rendered completely useless upon “upgrading” to 24H2, I’m really not that upset that I still cannot update my OS.
I’m going to be on 23H2 for a long time…
I’m going to be on 23H2 for a long time…
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Microsoft is operated by clowns. Maybe that's always been the case, but it's more obvious now than ever.
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Microsoft is sure doing their damndest to make Windows miserable--I swear every other week there's something new that grates on me. I already disabled their Copilot button in the task bar...and got rid of the ads in the Start menu...and turned off "Breaking News" alerts in the taskbar. The latest is that Windows keeps bugging me because I have an expired GamePass subscription that I tried for a couple of months and have no intention of ever renewing. Now I get to look forward to disabling even more junk that I never wanted or asked for. Ugh, I keep debating just moving to Linux and honestly the only reason I haven't already is just down to how long it'll take to push through the hassle. Pretty much all the games I play regularly run fine in Linux these days, there's just not a lot of Windows-only software left.
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I’m so sad the future passes me by.
Unfortunately for Microsoft Windows is just the system running Steam, and my Windows 10 system without microsoft account does that just fine. For all other things I have my Macs and Linux servers.
But he, in a few years security updates will stop and then maybe I can also play all Steam games on my Mac
Unfortunately for Microsoft Windows is just the system running Steam, and my Windows 10 system without microsoft account does that just fine. For all other things I have my Macs and Linux servers.
But he, in a few years security updates will stop and then maybe I can also play all Steam games on my Mac
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AI is making them do stupid things because not enough people are buying new computers?
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I'm sticking with Win10 so I don't accidentally wake up to 24H2 one morning.
It's kind of ironic considering I was finally warming to upgrading to Win11 (god knows why in hindsight) for some prospective perf improvements with iRacing and then a few days before I was going to do it, the WMR deprecation was announced.
Had I not procrastinated, I'd have fucked myself and had to reinstall Win10 from scratch.
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What's the over/under on how long it'll be before a serious breach occurs in the wild? I'd set it at 90 days. Place your bets, folks.
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It may work now, but I would not use that on a daily driver as security updates may stop at any time with an unsupported system.
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It's too bad that it's not installed by default and requires physical intervention to actually install. Still hoping to see some regedit or Group Policy for 11 Pro and enterprise to nuke from orbit soon.
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I migrated to Linux as soon as this news was known. A company that thinks a Bonzi-Buddy operating system is a good idea is never going to touch my hardware.
I had teething issues for sure, and i might be a perpetual newbie, but this "feature" is a hard NOPE!.
I had teething issues for sure, and i might be a perpetual newbie, but this "feature" is a hard NOPE!.
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A fair point, indeed. If you have an old machine my recommendation would be to use Windows 10 IoT Enterprise LTSC 2021, which is supported until January 13, 2032. Another option is Linux; I have a build of Linux Mint running on a truly ancient system and it still receives system and kernel updates regularly.
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It's gonna be fun to watch the hackers rip apart Copilot and the new NPUs. I wonder how many side channel vulnerabilities they'll find. As always, new code and new hardware brings new bugs.
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Heterocephalus glaber
Smack-Fu Master, in training
Argh. I've done my own tech support for years. It really makes me angry that now there's so many broken, non-removable shite items on my devices. I've never used Linux. Nonetheless, if I can't find enough methods to throttle Microsoft's insanity I'm going there. They've lost my trust and they're not going to get it back. The process of de-enshittifying my devices taught me that I'm never going to know everything that's going on with digital companies and that I'm not going to be able to stop it all. Using anything digital anymore is an increasing risk that's compounding every minute for all of us and has for decades.
I managed to find a copy of MS Office 2019 Pro Plus and to get it to work on Windows 11, so there's that. Small victory. It took eight hours to get Win 11 to give up trying to sell me 365 and let me install it.
I managed to find a copy of MS Office 2019 Pro Plus and to get it to work on Windows 11, so there's that. Small victory. It took eight hours to get Win 11 to give up trying to sell me 365 and let me install it.
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For some reason I "want" this thing to try using my GPU as an NPU-at-home just because it'd be funny.
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I made a registry change so I shouldn't have that unwelcome surprise one morning: https://www.elevenforum.com/t/specify-target-feature-update-version-in-windows-11.3811/
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zero schadenfreude about the predicament of my windows-besieged friends, but man, do these stories make me happy i got off the bus at XP. yesterday i installed Linux Lite on a 2009(?) Dell D520 i use as a data sponge for a scanner. 3.25GB usable RAM, 2-core / 2-thread, 1.66 gHz, super-generic sandisk SSD from about 5 years ago. works like a charm, not laggy at all.
edit to add: on a lark, loaded it up with a general assortment of my apps, including video / audio stuff like handbrake and audacity. everything works fine. obviously, not going to render video like lightning, but serviceable, and zero lock-up / freeze sorts of problems. it's crazy that they've engineered the OS to work acceptably on hardware that ancient.
edit to add: on a lark, loaded it up with a general assortment of my apps, including video / audio stuff like handbrake and audacity. everything works fine. obviously, not going to render video like lightning, but serviceable, and zero lock-up / freeze sorts of problems. it's crazy that they've engineered the OS to work acceptably on hardware that ancient.
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They have to run a beta test for their new spyware. They are just working out the kinks. The latest and greatest spyware will be released soon enough!
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Microsoft, can you please, please give us back a fully functional taskbar?
At home I have ways to deal with this but I have to live with whatever is there out of the box at work.
At home I have ways to deal with this but I have to live with whatever is there out of the box at work.
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Er, not exactly. Microsoft is an example of a corporate structure that Anthony Jay (in "Management and Machiavelli" -- worth reading) called Strong Dukes/Weak King. The dukes are the VPs in charge of the major product areas, they are in competition with each other, and very prone to independent, self-serving action. The king is the CEO/President combination. All they can do is make promises and hope the problems go away.
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OS recommendation, very old school: Lubuntu. not the bright / shiny hot / sexy, just very light and very straightforward. the latest release -- 24.04 -- is faster than its predecessor, imagine that. conservative move would be to wait until the august 15th point release, but i've been testing what's out there now and haven't run into any snags at all (anecdata...). can, obviously, be installed alongside your windows, 8GB RAM and 100GB drive space more that enough to get the idea. it will blow your mind.Argh. I've done my own tech support for years. It really makes me angry that now there's so many broken, non-removable shite items on my devices. I've never used Linux. Nonetheless, if I can't find enough methods to throttle Microsoft's insanity I'm going there. They've lost my trust and they're not going to get it back. The process of de-enshittifying my devices taught me that I'm never going to know everything that's going on with digital companies and that I'm not going to be able to stop it all. Using anything digital anymore is an increasing risk that's compounding every minute for all of us and has for decades.
I managed to find a copy of MS Office 2019 Pro Plus and to get it to work on Windows 11, so there's that. Small victory. It took eight hours to get Win 11 to give up trying to sell me 365 and let me install it.
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Sorry, but no. If you are on Win11 you will not be spared SOME AI. How much AI you will get remains to be seen, but you will get AI no matter the hardware, if you are using Win11.
NOTE: THIS DISCUSSION CONCERNS MACHINES THAT ARE NOT COPILOT + PCs
You see, Microsoft has fallbacks in place, in the shape of DirectML and WinML. If you (as a developer) do not want to dirty your hands, WinML is the high level interface, it uses DirectML as the backend. If you want to dirty your hands (like Microsoft will probably do, to bring AI to as many Win11 PCs as possible), DirectML is the way to go.
DirectML will use an NPU* if present (remember that DISCRETE graphic chips from nVidia, AMD and Intel, for both desktop and laptops, have NPUs in them, and some of those NPUs even clear the 40TOPS requirement), even if it is below 40TOPS, and compliment it with the (DirectX12 compatible) GPU pipeline** (or use the GPU alone if no NPU is present). Is not beyond microsoft to, eventually, expand DirectML to use AVX VNNI and AVX IFMA in the CPU as a last resort***.
So, in the future, the AI features will be rolled to more and more Win11 computers, as more optimization takes place in the OS components, with appropiate disclaimers about how those work if a 40 TOPS NPU is not available.
* The Tensor cores (matrix multiplication) in nVidia's 20xx GPUs in desktops clear the 40 TOPS bar, nVidia GPUs in the 30xx series in laptops also clear the 40 TOPS bar. Do not know for AMD. I suspect that the NPUs (MXM) in Intel's discrete GPUs also clear that bar, but not on integrated GPU land, though.
** Remember that the GPU pipeline and the NPUs in the GPU are different parts of the same SoC. One is concerned with graphics rendering and FP64, the other one is concerned with matrix miltiplications and FP32/16/8/6/4 used in ML. They are designed for different purposes, but are on the same chip/SoC
*** ML models are not only limited by TOPS, but also, by memory, if the NPUs in the GPU clear the 40 TOPs, but are memory limited, expanding the memory of the CPU is more feasible than expanding the memory on the GPU, so to the CPU (using AVX VNNI & IFMA) they go, better run them slowly than not run them at all. Also, you may run some models in the NPUs and some models in the CPU depending on TOPs vs Memory size tradeoffs, in order to have more than one m,odel running at the same time without swaping.
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they are not going forward with it, they recanted, until next year or so.
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They will brick themselves, but this is the subset of PCs that had system requirements overridden to install Windows 11 even though it said it was unsupported (not something you can do by accident) and the ones that brick themselves are quite old at this point, even by "PC still running Windows 10" standards.
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Your GPU probaly alreday has an NPU inside, as long as it is a discrete GPU (either in a card on your desktop, or as a chip in your laptop mobo).
In AMD land they are called matrix cores, in Intel land they are called MXM units, and in nVidia land they are called Tensor cores. Unlike the rendering pipleine, which is concerned with video rendering and FP64 (for things like CFD, for example), the Matrix untis/MXM units/Tensor cores concern themselves with matrix multiplication and FP32/16/8/6/4 used in ML/AI
Think of them as two sub-systems in the same SoC that we tend to call GPU, each with a different architecture, and different set of task optimizations, inhabiting the same silicon piece.
Check if your current GPU has one of those.
PS: And even if your GPU does not have them, DirectML will use the rendering pipeline, so, your wish may come true after all.
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There was a time when an OS was meant to enable working on a computer with some programmes.
Now in the MS client OS world, the OS is meant to prevent getting anything done with constant nags about useless features and notifications about weather or breaking news that come in the way of focused work.
But still no taskbar on top or on the side. Who does requirements prioritisation at MS? Have these people once interacted with users or are they too distracted by nags and breaking news to get anything done?
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I could be really happy if Microsoft would just keep Copilot anything out of my PC.
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That still says that it'll update once the end of service date has passed for that version. I don't want to have my headset break in November 2026. While ideally I'll have upgraded to something (Bigscreen Beyond, Pimax Crystal Light, Valve magic HMD that still keeps proper PCVR and standalone VR?) by then, my Reverb G2 is still an incredible headset that's being killed off for questionable justification.
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